RadishRose
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- Connecticut, USA
The conversation should never have been held at all, imo.
A littly rocky with my 42 year old daughter and her Sister n Law
- Thread starter Talon1952
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I don't see any reason for anyone to be offended. What I mentioned is stated in the forum rules:
1. Always use a descriptive and complete title when starting a new thread, a long title is preferred. The thread title should clearly tell what a thread is about.
2. Please don't use all-capital words in thread titles.
3. If you write a long post, please separate it into several paragraphs for easier reading.
4. Write a summary or quote one or two paragraphs when using external links.
I don't believe I was shouting by making the word "please" in bold. It was just for emphasis. (The word "use" was in bold by accident.) I didn't think I was being unkind. Sorry if you see it that way.
JonSR77
Senior Member
As a guy, I can say this...don't let your daughters or granddaughters dress provocatively.
And those arguments about it being "freedom of choice" --- they are all nonsense.
It is not that kids shouldn't be allowed to be kids and biology should be allowed to take its normal course.
What is going to happen is that the girl is going to be seen as a target by the WORST of the boys. Instead of finding some young boy that she likes and falls for....she is just going to attract some young jerk, only interested in physical attraction.
It would be nice if young girls could just wear what they want, without attracting attention from the worst little demons. But that is exactly what will happen.
And those arguments about it being "freedom of choice" --- they are all nonsense.
It is not that kids shouldn't be allowed to be kids and biology should be allowed to take its normal course.
What is going to happen is that the girl is going to be seen as a target by the WORST of the boys. Instead of finding some young boy that she likes and falls for....she is just going to attract some young jerk, only interested in physical attraction.
It would be nice if young girls could just wear what they want, without attracting attention from the worst little demons. But that is exactly what will happen.
well said IMO .... like it or not this does happen.
I frankly do not see why some get so offended when this is pointed out.....
JonSR77
Senior Member
If women really knew exactly how sick and disgusting men's thoughts are....they would exercise all caution.
and I am not entirely joking.
Testosterone is really a kind of "crazy juice."
Heh. When I was junior& high school age we girls were mostly wearing pleated wool skirts and stiff buttoned up shirts made of thick oxford cloth.
One day one of the girls, who I'll describe as "very attractive for her age," wore a blouse with a low neckline that revealed about a half-inch of cleavage. I thought the boys had been possessed by demons. They kept turning around in their seats to stare at her and even reprimands from the teacher couldn't contain them.
I'll never forget it, it was a little bit scary.
Medusa
Well-known Member
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
And you're saying the answer here is to cover up the girl rather than educate the boy to control himself? By extension, that girls should be (and are) taught how to protect themselves from boys, but we shouldn't bother teaching our boys not to attack girls because, what, they are such mindless, unevolved animals they have no control over their actions if they see a certain amount of skin exposed. Really? Am I getting that right?
Because, if I'm wrong and I misunderstood you (which I feverently hope I am and I did) would mind you clarifying for me, please?
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Thank you for this, it was just my perception. We might interpret differently but that is what makes us unique.
JonSR77
Senior Member
And you're saying the answer here is to cover up the girl rather than educate the boy to control himself? By extension, that girls should be (and are) taught how to protect themselves from boys, but we shouldn't bother teaching our boys not to attack girls because, what, they are such mindless, unevolved animals they have no control over their actions if they see a certain amount of skin exposed. Really? Am I getting that right?
Because, if I'm wrong and I misunderstood you (which I feverently hope I am and I did) would mind you clarifying for me, please?
My two cousins both worked at Hooter's.
They both picked up a stalker.
This is not about freedom issues, it is about pragmatic security issues.
Forget about regular boys. What about the little sociopaths who are going to become sex offenders?
Who gets targeted?
The one who stands out gets targeted.
It is as simple as that.
If you want the freedom to jog alone in the woods, you can. But if you jog in a crowded park, with a partner, in daylight...your risk of getting attacked is going to be hundreds of times lower.
Is it fair? NO.
Is it reality? Unfortunately, yes, I think so.
Have you read about the sex games that are going around these days? About the kinds of things even junior high school kids have been doing? Unbelievable things. Counting sexual conquests at age 13!
My doctor's daughter's friend was raped (date rape situation) at age 14 or so.
Did you know, that in many high schools, across America, it is a kind of tradition, that one of the cheerleaders has to sleep with the guy on the football team who scores a touchdown that week...
So, some 16 year old girl, HAS to sleep with some guy that she barely knows, because it is some kind of nutty tradition?
Yes, it is that crazy out there.
Sordid sexual tradition alleged at elite prep school
"Labrie also told the detective of a contest where boys compete to "score" with the most girls, keeping a running tally written in indelible marker on a wall behind washing machines. The school kept painting over the scoreboard so it eventually was moved online. He acknowledged to the detective he was "trying to be number one," the detective wrote."
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/st-pauls-school-rape-case-reveals-sordid-sexual-tradition/
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Chris P Bacon
Well-known Member
- Location
- Cuenca Ecuador
Why must you villianize boys and men at large due to the actions of a few?My two cousins both worked at Hooter's.
They both picked up a stalker.
This is not about freedom issues, it is about pragmatic security issues.
Forget about regular boys. What about the little sociopaths who are going to become sex offenders?
Who gets targeted?
The one who stands out gets targeted.
It is as simple as that.
If you want the freedom to jog alone in the woods, you can. But if you jog in a crowded park, with a partner, in daylight...your risk of getting attacked is going to be hundreds of times lower.
Is it fair? NO.
Is it reality? Unfortunately, yes, I think so.
Have you read about the sex games that are going around these days? About the kinds of things even junior high school kids have been doing? Unbelievable things. Counting sexual conquests at age 13!
My doctor's daughter's friend was raped (date rape situation) at age 14 or so.
Did you know, that in many high schools, across America, it is a kind of tradition, that one of the cheerleaders has to sleep with the guy on the football team who scores a touchdown that week...
So, some 16 year old girl, HAS to sleep with some guy that she barely knows, because it is some kind of nutty tradition?
Yes, it is that crazy out there.
Sordid sexual tradition alleged at elite prep school
"Labrie also told the detective of a contest where boys compete to "score" with the most girls, keeping a running tally written in indelible marker on a wall behind washing machines. The school kept painting over the scoreboard so it eventually was moved online. He acknowledged to the detective he was "trying to be number one," the detective wrote."
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/st-pauls-school-rape-case-reveals-sordid-sexual-tradition/
Have you ever heard of or read about a woman named Mary Kay Letourneau?
Predators come in both sexes and ages. Counting conquests at age 13, dating
at 14 and believing that sex is a must at age 16, you live in a different world
than me. Were either of the two cousins you mentioned cheerleaders at school?
And if you give credibility to the number of sexual conquests that 13 year old boys
claim, let me share something about that with you, boys lie about those. They lie
about their conquests even when they’ve grown out of boyhood. And for the boy
who wanted to be Number One, he’s got a long way to go to catch up with me.
I may or may not be number one. I stopped or lost count of my conquests long ago.
But I don’t think that my score won’t increase in the days and weeks to come.
Medusa
Well-known Member
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Hi, @JonSR77My two cousins both worked at Hooter's.
They both picked up a stalker.
This is not about freedom issues, it is about pragmatic security issues.
Forget about regular boys. What about the little sociopaths who are going to become sex offenders?
Who gets targeted?
The one who stands out gets targeted.
It is as simple as that.
If you want the freedom to jog alone in the woods, you can. But if you jog in a crowded park, with a partner, in daylight...your risk of getting attacked is going to be hundreds of times lower.
Is it fair? NO.
Is it reality? Unfortunately, yes, I think so.
Have you read about the sex games that are going around these days? About the kinds of things even junior high school kids have been doing? Unbelievable things. Counting sexual conquests at age 13!
My doctor's daughter's friend was raped (date rape situation) at age 14 or so.
Did you know, that in many high schools, across America, it is a kind of tradition, that one of the cheerleaders has to sleep with the guy on the football team who scores a touchdown that week...
So, some 16 year old girl, HAS to sleep with some guy that she barely knows, because it is some kind of nutty tradition?
Yes, it is that crazy out there.
Sordid sexual tradition alleged at elite prep school
"Labrie also told the detective of a contest where boys compete to "score" with the most girls, keeping a running tally written in indelible marker on a wall behind washing machines. The school kept painting over the scoreboard so it eventually was moved online. He acknowledged to the detective he was "trying to be number one," the detective wrote."
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/st-pauls-school-rape-case-reveals-sordid-sexual-tradition/
I appreciate your response (especially as I felt, after-the-fact) that my approach was a bit aggressive and could have been better worded so as to elicit productive conversation. I meant to focus more on the larger issue than your words, in particular. All of which lends credit to your very civil and thought-out reply.
I understand what you're saying in your post (watched the news clip), and agree with you in that the things you've mentioned are problems amongst our youth that desperately need addressing. However, sans, Hooters (and women {and men} get stalked far too often, and regardless of their state of dress) there is no mention of the issue I posed.
What I'm concerned about here is that directing the issue of sexual violence against girls/women at what they are wearing is flat-out victim blaming at its most pure. And, in truth, what the girl was wearing at the time of attack is almost never the reason for rape. Rape is about power, control, and not clothes.
And this is so very important here:
"Blaming women for the violence they encounter reiterates the idea that a woman’s clothing directly dictates how she deserves to be treated. Not only is this deeply insulting, it is profoundly untrue."
https://meridian-magazine.com/what-...e violence,insulting, it is profoundly untrue.
The above quote is from a mag. and I usually don't quote "soft" sources, but it says plainly what is so important about this issue.
There are tons of sites, of course, but I won't bombard you with a bunch of tedious links (I hate that) because I'm sure you get the point.
Also, and I think this is just as important as the above, it is insulting and a disservice to our young men to assume (and lend the idea to them) that they have no self-control and can't be responsible for their actions.
It is important to teach our girls how to protect themselves and just as (if not more so) important to teach our boys to control themselves.
And to stop blaming victims of assault for any reason, let alone what top they are wearing.
Thank you for the reply and the discussion.
Chris P Bacon
Well-known Member
- Location
- Cuenca Ecuador
A blind man (or boy, for that matter) likely wouldn't have sex with a woman against her will based solely upon what she was wearing. Males are not the only predators in the world.
Medusa
Well-known Member
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
I hear what you're saying; there are female sexual aggressors and that shouldn't be ignored, but the fact is that most of them are men.
Which is why it is important to teach them, as boys, to control themselves and not perpetuate the idea that they can't. What does that tell them about themselves? It's insulting, demeaning and ultimately sometimes, tragic.
Judycat
Well-known Member
- Location
- Pennsylvania
You're going to think I'm awful, but when my oldest teen son would go out the door at night, I'd yell. "Don't forget to wear a condom!" This would stop him in his tracks. I was hoping for the ick factor in him knowing I knew what was going on in his testosterone addled brain.
If he was hanging out with a girl around town I'd make sure to walk the dog nearby and wag my finger at him. I found this to be amusing, I'm sure neither he nor the the girl did though.
I threw a guy out of the house once, because I came home and found him lying with my daughter on our couch. Something about the smile he gave me. Bastard, learn some respect. Idiot.
If he was hanging out with a girl around town I'd make sure to walk the dog nearby and wag my finger at him. I found this to be amusing, I'm sure neither he nor the the girl did though.
I threw a guy out of the house once, because I came home and found him lying with my daughter on our couch. Something about the smile he gave me. Bastard, learn some respect. Idiot.
I tried to teach my son to always be respectful to girls, never ogle them or make sexual remarks, to wait until a relationship is meaningful to even think about having sex, to use a condom even if she's on some sort of birth control, above all be sure it's consensual.
I would like to think that mothers of girls take a tiny bit of responsibility for their side of it. Teach their daughters not to dress like they're desperately trying to turn-on any male in sight. Tell them not to tease just for the fun of it. If they're going to be sexually active, get them on a good reliable type of birth control, don't tell them to make the boy handle birth control, whether it seems "fair" or not. Boys only have one, not so great option and it has to be used in the heat of the moment, possibly when high or drunk.
I don't think teaching women safe practices is the same thing as victim blaming. We're warned not to leave our keys in our car and no one says that by doing that, we're excusing the thief if he steals the car or blaming the person whose car is stolen. Nothing a woman does or wears, excuses a rapist, but wouldn't it be better if she wasn't raped at all?
I would like to think that mothers of girls take a tiny bit of responsibility for their side of it. Teach their daughters not to dress like they're desperately trying to turn-on any male in sight. Tell them not to tease just for the fun of it. If they're going to be sexually active, get them on a good reliable type of birth control, don't tell them to make the boy handle birth control, whether it seems "fair" or not. Boys only have one, not so great option and it has to be used in the heat of the moment, possibly when high or drunk.
I don't think teaching women safe practices is the same thing as victim blaming. We're warned not to leave our keys in our car and no one says that by doing that, we're excusing the thief if he steals the car or blaming the person whose car is stolen. Nothing a woman does or wears, excuses a rapist, but wouldn't it be better if she wasn't raped at all?
Remy
Well-known Member
- Location
- California, USA
Is it me or is the forum getting weird. I feel like I have to become for defensive, snarky and even mean at this point and I really do try to be supportive usually. Most here are nice but I've noticed a change not for the better lately.
RadishRose
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- Connecticut, USA
Don't worry @Remy, most everyone here is nice. Moods fluctuate sometimes, especially with this kind of topic. I just pay no attention to those who just like to argue.
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