Good Bye George

Packerjohn

Packerjohn

Packerjohn
Location
Canada
Our local, small town newspaper this week ran a full page story called, "Last Respects." It's about George who just died at the age of 99; 38 days short of his 100th birthday. I like to think of myself as a pacifist but I hold high regard for the people who fought in past wars to protect our country and our way of life. It was a long article but I would like to bring out just 3 points from interviews with "George."

1. "Despite the danger George endured during his service, he placed no blame on the people of Germany, as many were forced to fight a war they did not believe in." I would think that there are many Russians soldiers in the Ukraine today that are fighting for something they don't believe in and perhaps would rather be home with wives or girl friends.

2. "Several German soldiers who were surrendering to George and his men were shot by an SS soldier in their midst who had orders to kill their men if anyone was suspected of defecting or of surrendering to the allied forces." The SS soldier shot about 15 of his own men. Makes me think if the Russians soldiers are under the same sort of pressure.

3. "The military can turn a young person's life around..... and we could use more of that today." This the same point of view my father held way back in the 50s regarding aimless, lost youth. My father was a soldier in WWI so I think he knew what he was talking about.
 

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Packerjohn said:
Our local, small town newspaper this week ran a full page story called, "Last Respects." It's about George who just died at the age of 99; 38 days short of his 100th birthday. I like to think of myself as a pacifist but I hold high regard for the people who fought in past wars to protect our country and our way of life. It was a long article but I would like to bring out just 3 points from interviews with "George."

1. "Despite the danger George endured during his service, he placed no blame on the people of Germany, as many were forced to fight a war they did not believe in." I would think that there are many Russians soldiers in the Ukraine today that are fighting for something they don't believe in and perhaps would rather be home with wives or girl friends.

2. "Several German soldiers who were surrendering to George and his men were shot by an SS soldier in their midst who had orders to kill their men if anyone was suspected of defecting or of surrendering to the allied forces." The SS soldier shot about 15 of his own men. Makes me think if the Russians soldiers are under the same sort of pressure.

3. "The military can turn a young person's life around..... and we could use more of that today." This the same point of view my father held way back in the 50s regarding aimless, lost youth. My father was a soldier in WWI so I think he knew what he was talking about.
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Could you have found a photo of Canadian WW2 soldiers to illustrate your post ? After all there were more than a million of them serving over seas during the war. In the modern era the Canadian Forces are NOT in the business of "turning young people around ". The CAF recruits volunteers who want to serve, and rejects those who are not able to adapt to military life. So where did George live in Canada ? Jimb.
 
Geezer Garage said:
I think mandatory service, military /community/ of some type before college would be a good thing. It would make for more mature students, who would get more out of the school experience, and or career path. Something akin to the Israeli model.
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I have to strongly disagree with you. It is tough enough training young people who "want to be there " never mind a bunch of smart ass yahoos who will create problems at every turn for the instructional staff. A terrible idea. To the IDF, their country is surrounded by enemy states, that Israel has had to fight a number of times over the past decades. They don't have to go looking for trouble, they can see it from their borders. An entirely different situation than the USA faces. JimB.
 
Geezer Garage said:
I think mandatory service, military /community/ of some type before college would be a good thing. It would make for more mature students, who would get more out of the school experience, and or career path. Something akin to the Israeli model.
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I agree. I think every young person should be obligated to "Give Something" to the nation and society. Whether it's military service or helping out in senior care facilities, or virtually anything that improves the area they live in....I think everyone would benefit from such a rule. In today's world, "individual responsibility" seems to be less and less important to so many of our young, and that will only result in more problems for them as they grow older.
 
Don M. said:
I agree. I think every young person should be obligated to "Give Something" to the nation and society. Whether it's military service or helping out in senior care facilities, or virtually anything that improves the area they live in....I think everyone would benefit from such a rule. In today's world, "individual responsibility" seems to be less and less important to so many of our young, and that will only result in more problems for them as they grow older.
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While I oppose the idea of the draft, I wholeheartedly agree that young people should be required to either join the military OR serve their local community in some capacity. Good idea, in my opinion.
 
Em in Ohio said:
While I oppose the idea of the draft, I wholeheartedly agree that young people should be required to either join the military OR serve their local community in some capacity. Good idea, in my opinion.
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How about sending an old person like yourself to aid an even older person? Maybe for diaper changing? Good idea, in my opinion.

How can you be against a draft and be for involuntary servitude? How can you lie and say you're against a draft & then use military service in your example? Because you are too old to be victimized by it? Can you imagine children of the upper middle & wealthy being forced to do this? They wouldn't be.

Old people trying to force young people to do their bidding just shows how old one truly is. As well as being out of touch.

Some of you might be happier living in China or some other police state. Disgusting is the best word I can think of. Hypocrites, too, especially claiming to be against a draft.
 
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Pepper said:
How about sending an old person like yourself to aid an even older person? Maybe for diaper changing? Good idea, in my opinion.

How can you be against a draft and be for involuntary servitude? How can you lie and say you're against a draft & then use military service in your example? Because you are too old to be victimized by it? Can you imagine children of the upper middle & wealthy being forced to do this? They wouldn't be.

Old people trying to force young people to do their bidding just shows how old one truly is. As well as being out of touch.

Some of you might be happier living in China or some other police state. Disgusting is the best word I can think of. Hypocrites, too, especially claiming to be against a draft.
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I was willing but unable to join the Army in middle age. While I oppose war and weapons proliferation, in this day and age we have no choice but to be prepared. All I was saying was that youth should have to give of themselves to help others in some way. You can call it forced servitude if you wish. I believe it is character building.
 
Of course you can't join the Army in middle age!
As for character building, a move like this will basically only infect the poorer classes. Yes, we all know poor people desperately need character building. That says a lot @Em in Ohio about true intent.

"....youth should have to give of themselves...." Should. Should. Should. You should do this and do that. Not me. YOU is what you are telling Youth. How dare you.
 
Geezer Garage said:
I think mandatory service, military /community/ of some type before college would be a good thing. It would make for more mature students, who would get more out of the school experience, and or career path. Something akin to the Israeli model.
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I agree that a year or two of adult supervised productive activity would be very beneficial for 18 yr olds who otherwise would go straight to college and make a lot of foolish, destructive and dangerous mistakes partying and/or excess drinking etc. It is so sad when there are articles in the news of them dying from chugging alcohol or falling out of dorm windows.

And it could be extra beneficial if there were international options (Peace Corp etc) that would broaden the experience and perspective of the kids. I'd think the kids would enjoy it assuming they could choose which type of program.

I remember some program that was a little pricey but supposedly was very effective for young people who'd gotten off on the wrong foot in life, where they would spend a month with a Native American guide hiking and living in the wilderness.

Of course this would be expensive (higher taxes) to support the programs, but it might provide some benefits for both the kids and the society.

When I was young I went overseas to one of the Israeli Ulpan programs and it was a great experience, we studied Hebrew half the day and the other half we rotated through work assignments (such as picking pomegranates, clearing rocks from fields, childcare house, dining hall duty, carrot factory, latrine cleaning (ugh), etc.). Of course since we were young and stupid there were some tragedies, first thing when we arrived we had to all go visit a grave of a previous participant (who thought it was cool to dig up a landmine from the border and bring it back to his dorm room), and in our group we had a leftover person from the previous group who was staying on because she fell off a ladder when picking pomegranates and broke her leg in three places.

I don't think we could afford a three year program for our kids in the USA, probably just one year, which would not be enough to mature them very much. The Israeli guys in university after their 3 yr stints in the military were very mature/serious/boring, but we'd probably have to have an extra ten percent sales tax on the whole country to afford to give the kids that much time.
 
The only ones inducted will basically be black, latino and poor whites just like it was when there was a draft.

"18 yr olds who otherwise would go straight to college and make a lot of foolish, destructive and dangerous mistakes partying and/or excess drinking etc. It is so sad when there are articles in the news of them dying from chugging alcohol or falling out of dorm windows." what a ridiculous generalization @HoneyNut. The young people I know don't fall into that category.

Slavery was good for capitalism. Good for all types of problems. Let's bring it back. I need someone to help an old woman like me. It will be so good for their character and it won't cost me one red cent. Send your own grandchildren. Leave mine alone.
 
HoneyNut said:
True, it would have to be really fair, no getting out based on an invisible foot bone spur. ;)
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HoneyNut, the truth of what I said should cause anyone with a fair heart to question involuntary servitude. Live and let live. To each his/her/their own. Etc.
 
Pepper said:
HoneyNut, the truth of what I said should cause anyone with a fair heart to question involuntary servitude. Live and let live. To each his/her/their own. Etc.
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How 'bout if they get paid; earn as you learn. I wish apprenticeship programs would make a huge come-back. And they shouldn't even require a high-school diploma or GED, just a kid with an interest in learning a marketable skill and a solid future.
 
It's the INvoluntary part I object to strenuously @Murrmurr. If these opportunities are offered on a voluntary basis I have no objections, in fact I think it's a great idea. It's Forced labor that is my objection. Forced. Only for some of course---that wayward poor youth group.
 
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One thing about mandatory service is that would then give everyone one veteran's benefits, so we basically would have national health insurance. I wonder what the price tag would be on that?
 
Flarbalard said:
One thing about mandatory service is that would then give everyone one veteran's benefits, so we basically would have national health insurance. I wonder what the price tag would be on that?
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We have to pay for health care either way. But national health insurance would be more economical:

To estimate what would happen if the United States adopted a single-payer system, researchers from UCSF, UCLA and UC Berkeley examined 22 economic analyses by government, business and academic organizations of national and state-level single payer plans, including proposals made in Massachusetts, California, Maryland, Vermont, Minnesota, Pennsylvania, New York and Oregon.

These analyses were used by policymakers to evaluate the proposals, estimating savings the plans would create through simplified billing and lower drug costs while also taking into account increases in health spending that would arise as newly insured people sought healthcare.

The researchers found that 19 of the 22 models predicted net savings in the first year after implementation, averaging 3.5 percent of total healthcare spending.

The researchers were able to estimate longer-term savings by using cost projections made in 10 of the models, which looked as far as 11 years into the future. These studies assumed that savings would grow over time, as the increases in healthcare utilization by the newly insured leveled off, and the global budgets adopted by single-payer systems helped to constrain costs. By the 10th year, all modeled single payer systems would save money, even those that projected costs would initially increase.

Authors: Christopher Cai, Jackson Runte, Isabel Ostrer, Kacey Berry, Justin White, PhD, and James G. Kahn, MD, MPH, of the UCSF School of Medicine; Ninez Ponce, PhD, MPP, of the UCLA Fielding School of Public Health; Michael Rodriguez, MD, MPH, of the David Geffen School of Medicine at UCLA; Stefano Bertozzi, MD, PhD, of the UC Berkley School of Public Health.

Funding: None except as noted in disclosures.

Disclosures: Christopher Cai is an executive board member of Students for a National Health Program. Christopher Cai, Jackson Runte, Isabel Ostrer, Kacey Berry each received a student summer research grant of $750 from Physicians for a National Health Program (PNHP) to support this study. PNHP had no role in study design, data collection, analysis, decision to publish or manuscript preparation.
 
HoneyNut said:
We have to pay for health care either way. But national health insurance would be more economical:
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I can guarantee that if we had free nat'l healthcare in the US, we'd have crappy healthcare. To the detriment of common-folks, our greedy, self-absorbed congress would tap into the funds at every opportunity in every way they could. I just don't see it working here. Not now. Not until we get congress and congressional spending under our control. That was the original idea. (tell that to a civics class and they'll look at you like you just fell off the moon)
 
Em in Ohio said:
While I oppose the idea of the draft, I wholeheartedly agree that young people should be required to either join the military OR serve their local community in some capacity. Good idea, in my opinion.
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I enlisted and got to meet other Americans from other parts of the country and of other races who were all dressed in the same uniform for the same reason and it gave a sense of oneness and national unity which is sorely lacking today.
 
Murrmurr said:
To the detriment of common-folks, our greedy, self-absorbed congress would tap into the funds at every opportunity in every way they could.
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Well, currently we have greedy self-absorbed profit motive health insurance companies, and contrary to the story they feed us about being so efficient, they are wasteful and only interested in getting the most money for the least benefit, plus OUR money has to support: "CEOs of 178 health care companies collectively made $3.2 billion during 2020". We might as well let congress take a billion and we'd still save a bunch.
 
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