Church, Religion and Control

grahamg said:
Another snipe at Christians I notice, and on behalf of your whole family too, (sorry for my part in whatever happened to them, if I had any!), but as a suggestion, just take a look at the Dr Martin Luther King jnr autobiography, (completed after his death from his papers, assisted by those knowing him very very well).

There you will find liberated thinking much of which came from the bible, some of it written when in solitary confinement, jailed on trumped up charges, and yes he answered other churchman trying to condemn him, but in a very friendly way that must have made them feel complete fools!
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Here's another truth you can call a "snipe" if you like. Two wrongs will never make any right. I thought christians knew that one. How is Dr King any more important than N/A?
 

win231 said:
No one controls me - with religion or anything else.
And religious people are always a source of amusement for me.
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Those that are self righteous and try to force their beliefs on others are a source of both amusement and sometimes irritation for me.

The latter when they are trying to use their belief system to manipulate impressionable and vulnerable people--like talking relatives into deathbed.conversions, or scaring small children with fire and brimstone.

My amusement is generally triggered when agnostics, atheists or people like me who accept the bits healthy guidance to be found in most any 'sacred' scripture but not that they come from 'God' remind the devout of scriptures that contradict their interpretations and the narrative they push.
 
grahamg said:
Who are you to judge though, (or any of us?), given we've probably not got a clue what it was really like to live in those days, with " the devine right of kings" being so prevalent in everyone's thinking, and all the rest of it, (no easy communication, few people literate, and little understanding of science etc., etc., etc.!). :(
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I am as entitled to "judge" as any other person of or not of religion. How does anyone do so in the present or in the past". No one really knows what goes on in other countries, areas and in other regimes - past or present? The religious do plenty of "judging" of other peoples and behaviors. As the old saying says "turnabout is fair play". Judge not lest ye be judged is a good idea if it's a 2 way street.
 

Raddragn said:
I have to say I've never experienced that! And I'm a nurse who haa seen much death while working in Critical Care.

"Statement shows both your opinion and attitude."
Absolutely! I do not believe in the existence of any God of any religion, but - again - I am content to let other believe as long as they do the same for me. Live and let live!
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Surprising you bother trying to bait me into arguing about "sick and...".

As hard core late 60s counterculture, I am solidly "Live and Let Be". What we post herein in this community for the sake of amusing discussions in no way indicates we ever actively elsewhere pressure others either personal acquaintances or the public religiously in ways some are discussing. For instance in schools, politics, and work places. Those are not worlds I bother wasting my time and effort much involved with. Debating casually on web threads is an amusement with miniscule affect on public issues we discuss.
 
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When people start talking about all the bad stuff done in the name if religions (and in my experiences there are hypocritical zealots in them all) i usually mention that the issues stem from the nature of human beings not from the belief systems themselves. Our need for control, of selves and others, sometimes about our desire/greed for power/status and yes our materialism.

In fact i tend to feel most of the inherent issues in religions, or any organization flow from the human nature. WE are the problem, and we create problems. Think about it-- we create those hierarchies, rules etc. We break most of the rules too. We create systems that allow us to feel superior to others, and also find ways for it to absolve us of responsibility for our own trangressions ("the devil made me do it").

All that said, i have known some amazingly loving, compassionate and fair minded people from various traditions (all 3 Abrahamic faiths including a wide range of Christian sects, as well Hindus, Buddhists) that didn't just believe in their articles of faith but lived by the most humane ones if them; People who did not preach or push their faith but demonstrated it in their daily lives.
 
feywon said:
n fact i tend to feel most of the inherent issues in religions, or any organization flow from the human nature. WE are the problem, and we create the problems. Think about it-- we create those hierarchies, rules etc. We break most of the rules too. We create systems that allow us to feel superior to others, and also find ways for it to absolve us of responsibility for our own trangressions ("the devil made me do it").
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You are absolutely right. Humans do create all that in the name of religion just as they create the religion itself!
 
feywon said:
When people start talking about all the bad stuff done in the name if religions (and in my experiences there are hypocritical zealots in them all) i usually mention that the issues stem from the nature of human beings not from the belief systems themselves. Our need for control, of selves and others, sometimes about our desire/greed for power/status and yes our materialism.

In fact i tend to feel most of the inherent issues in religions, or any organization flow from the human nature. WE are the problem, and we create problems. Think about it-- we create those hierarchies, rules etc. We break most of the rules too. We create systems that allow us to feel superior to others, and also find ways for it to absolve us of responsibility for our own trangressions ("the devil made me do it").

All that said, i have known some amazingly loving, compassionate and fair minded people from various traditions (all 3 Abrahamic faiths including a wide range of Christian sects, as well Hindus, Buddhists) that didn't just believe in their articles of faith but lived by the most humane ones if them; People who did not preach or push their faith but demonstrated it in their daily lives.
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But without humans, there would BE no religion. Humans CREATED religion.
 
Nathan said:
I attended a church school for a couple years.... anyway, the topic of taking Communion came up, we were told that if we took communion without having completed the Communion class, that the wine and bread would turn into poison in our stomachs.:eek:
A year or two later when I was spending the summer in NC at my grand-parents house, my grandfather being a Lutheran minister gave me a 1 on 1 Confirmation class, and so I was then duly certified to receive the Sacraments. But I recall trembling when my grandfather first served me Communion, thinking about what they told us in the parochial school.
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Nathan, where did your grandparents live in NC? My grandparents were from two little small towns south of Asheville. I used to go there every summer to visit them in my teens.
 
Nathan said:
@dseag2 , Lincolnton, about an 1 1/2 hr. east on the I-40 from Ashville. Many of my ancestors were settled in Cherryville,Kings Mtn. and surrounding areas in Lincoln-Gaston and Cleveland counties.
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I know them well. We used to visit Gastonia. We looked at real estate in Charlotte right before 9/11, so that dream was cut short. My grandparents were from Marion and Rutherfordton, and my parents settled in Hickory when they were first married. Beautiful country, although a bit scary from some perspectives. ;)
 
dseag2 said:
I know them well. We used to visit Gastonia. We looked at real estate in Charlotte right before 9/11, so that dream was cut short. My grandparents were from Marion and Rutherfordton, and my parents settled in Hickory when they were first married. Beautiful country, although a bit scary from some perspectives. ;)
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Well we might just be some kind of cousins. I have a bunch of ancestors buried at St. Mark's Church outside of Cherryville. :)
 
grahamg said:
Yes, humans did create religions, and on what a scale across the world, and that should show anyone with an open mind the need for religion/religions in times gone past and whether societies would have developed at all without them! :)
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Yes! That's one of the reasons I'm a believer. As early as humans existed they were drawing things on cave walls that indicated religious belief, even if it was as simple as sun worship (something I'm getting into right now!) Why would mankind always be looking for something higher, a creator of some sort, if there was nothing at all on the other side of all that universal longing?
 
Della said:
Yes! That's one of the reasons I'm a believer. As early as humans existed they were drawing things on cave walls that indicated religious belief, even if it was as simple as sun worship (something I'm getting into right now!) Why would mankind always be looking for something higher, a creator of some sort, if there was nothing at all on the other side of all that universal longing?
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This is part of why some neurobiologists feel our brains are 'hardwired' to 'believe' in something outside or beyond ourselves and this reality. Others went looking to 'prove' consciousness was nothing more than by product of brain function and conditioning and couldn't. Some found what they considered evidence that our consciousness (soul?) exists independent if our physical brain.

Have you looked at Zoroastrianism? Some religious scholars and historians think it may be the first monotheistic faith. Also that the basic principles, common sense communal good tenets along the.lines of the Golden Rule and the 10 commandments may have influenced the Abrahamic religions when they came along.

A few years ago Morgan Freeman did a limited series about belief systems, faiths. One of few pieces of info new to me (tho watching him converse with various 'clergy' and believers was interesting anyway) was that Zoroastrians don't believe in a devil/ satan figure because they feel it is crucial for us to take responsibility for ourselves, words and deeds.

Here's a link some basic info tho a simple search will term up several others.

https://www.history.com/topics/religion/zoroastrianism
 
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I don't agree with the Bible, not that I am an expert but I have difficulty accepting something when I am told to believe without questioning the so-called facts of the Bible. If the Bible can stand on its own merit; why are we not question God's word for fear of God's wrath?
Why is God so pissed off in the Old Testament causing floods, plagues, frogs, locusts, and complete annihilation of Sodom & Gamora? The New Testament God is lovey-dovey, as seen and interpreted by Jesus. Did God change because of Jesus?

Prior to Jesus's time, the only way to communicate with God was through a priest and sacrifice. Perhaps third-party connections failed to establish a favorable connection with God, thus missing critical information that was resolved by a direct connect through Jesus?
 
feywon said:
Those that are self righteous and try to force their beliefs on others are a source of both amusement and sometimes irritation for me.
{snip}
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Amen! And what I see in this thread, and in other similar threads, here and on other sites, is that the non-believers are the ones "trying to force their beliefs on others", are the most argumentative, and the most likely to belittle those that they disagree with.

YMMV
 
@Mr. Ed
"Prior to Jesus's time, the only way to communicate with God was through a priest and sacrifice."

If Jews had 10 adults (male), a quorum or minyan, as it is called, they may pray together without a "priest" or rabbi in a temple and without animal sacrifice. The ancient Jews individually prayed as well, always beginning with Barukh ata Adonai Eloheinu, melekh ha'olam, which translates as Blessed are you, lord our God, King of the Universe.

So, I don't know what you're talking about, 'cause it's not correct, at least I've never heard your version, ever.
 
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