Church, Religion and Control

@Ed, that is why I developed views against dominant Christian dogma, that the Bible is not inerrant, not infallible and God [which I prefer to call a UIE among a race of such entities], does not have omniscience, omnipotence, and omnipresence, powers. I strongly believe that logic demands there are no actions without forces as in no supernatural magic. Well unless everything is some kind of vast computer like simulation in which everything is possible because such is merely a matter of programming whatever so. However there are strong arguments that point to that sci-fi notion as nonsense anyone can web research.

Your new question about the OT is off topic. The OT god did not approve of practices like human sacrifice, slavery, all the 10 Commandment acts, including a range of rising sexual practices common in early city states one can read about in archeology research. That is why Sodom and Gomorrah was probably nuked. Whether any of we humans agrees or does not with his assessment won't dismiss the possibility that some powerful entity as a god or UIE within their DNA generated male/female germ reproductive systems might obviously think so. Before the rise of agriculture and city states, when humans lived in limited clans, the important issues for a god were more likely the way most animalia species including we earth monkeys innately fight and even kill their members over territory, mates, materials, and food sources.

My own hypothesis is Adam and Eve were an attempt by the UIE race if they existed to genetically improve what were to them unacceptable within their moral system, earth creature behaviors out of we homo sapiens. They may have done so because they wanted a closer relationship with the only intelligent and technologically capable life that had arisen after 4 billion years of their work. After, God's "angels" went as far as they could with DNA, their leader God arrived and tested the two humans in the Garden of Eden. For reasons that undoubtedly go beyond the simple Genesis apple story, he rejected us as we were as a species unworthy at their level. I don't suspect God/UIE race actually wanted or wants to interfere in our affairs but rather were morally disgusted and they viewed us as likely to end up doomed when we developed technology as is now happening.

Then over some thousands of years came up with Plan B that began by drowning all in their local river region but Noah's family. Later maybe with Plan F, God gives Moses the simple to understand 10 Commandments, hardly demanding with the idea they need to separate their test humans, the Israelites, from the nearby civilization evildoers.

But that didn't work either. After many other ideas over centuries, they eventually reach Plan Z when Jesus [with Adam's DNA] arrives and is the final solution. God apparently decided Jesus's new church might work so he did not run with the Revelations plan and instead they will only return en mass after as they expect, we monkeys do something truly bad like nuke the planet in WWIII or Global Warming. Then they will return, and repopulate with advanced entities, organic or not, and saved zoo species, they could easily be working on elsewhere. In fact after a few million years, even the radioactive effects of WWIII would decline.
 
Mr. Ed said:
Were there adults in your life who used religion to control or persuade you to behave? Religions have a set rules and regulations to live by, unfortunately the church and religious followers create their own list of sins but not listed in the Bible.
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As a child I attended church occasionally, but no -- my parents never used it to control. As a matter of fact religion seems to be on the wane in the United States and much of the developed world.

"A new study from Lifeway Research suggests more Protestant churches closed in 2019 than opened — continuing a decades-long congregational slide that is only expected to accelerate."
https://religionnews.com/2021/05/26/study-more-churches-closing-than-opening/

Islam may be an exception ...
"According to the Pew Research Center’s studies, Islam is the fastest-growing religion in the world. Forecasts suggest that in the second half of the 21st century, Muslims will replace Christians as the world’s largest religious group."
https://www.worldatlas.com/feature/...-world-s-fastest-growing-religious-group.html
 
Buckeye said:
Amen! And what I see in this thread, and in other similar threads, here and on other sites, is that the non-believers are the ones "trying to force their beliefs on others", are the most argumentative, and the most likely to belittle those that they disagree with.

YMMV
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The two decades I've been online i'd say it's fairly balanced in terms of pushiness. I get as annoyed by 'non-believers' who are condescending and even insulting at times toward believers, as i do with believers who are pushy. Both sometimes tend to act as if they have some monopoly on universal truth.
 
"what I see in this thread, and in other similar threads, here and on other sites, is that the non-believers are the ones "trying to force their beliefs on others", are the most argumentative, and the most likely to belittle those that they disagree with"

As I said, I haven't seen any of that by nonbelievers on THIS thread. I can't speak for other threads. It has been my experience in life generally that the believers are the pushy, insistent ones. Generally they have seemed to be completely unable to accept the fact that you are not a believer. Becoming so is not an easy road to take. I was brought up and lived in Christian homes from very early childhood. Coming to the conclusion that you no longer believe is a slow process - at least it was for me - and at times difficult and a bit scary.
I fully accept the idea that some really need religion in their lives and I have no problem with their private practice of it. Just leave me out of it. Don't try to make me live according to your religious precepts and rules.
 
Raddragn said:
Strange. I have found just the opposite. I'd be interested in a few quotes?
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I'm told there are no crosses or crucifixes to be found in Catholic school in the UK anymore, (a very nice retired Catholic couple told me this was so a few years ago, when their daughters attended school).

Who has imposed that rule on the school I wonder (?).

Then there has been all manner of other rules that have been brought in constraining folks who have been the most generous in terms of caring for disabled kids etc., (all due to political correctness busy bodies in my view, forcing their will on others, with unknowable consequences in my view).
 
Raddragn said:
"what I see in this thread, and in other similar threads, here and on other sites, is that the non-believers are the ones "trying to force their beliefs on others", are the most argumentative, and the most likely to belittle those that they disagree with"

As I said, I haven't seen any of that by nonbelievers on THIS thread. I can't speak for other threads. It has been my experience in life generally that the believers are the pushy, insistent ones. Generally they have seemed to be completely unable to accept the fact that you are not a believer. Becoming so is not an easy road to take. I was brought up and lived in Christian homes from very early childhood. Coming to the conclusion that you no longer believe is a slow process - at least it was for me - and at times difficult and a bit scary.
I fully accept the idea that some really need religion in their lives and I have no problem with their private practice of it. Just leave me out of it. Don't try to make me live according to your religious precepts and rules.
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It is true that there is an element of mind control about any religion I'd say, but my atheist ex wife was an expert in this kind of mind control I'd argue, so its behaviour not limited to churches or religions!
 
ElCastor said:
As a child I attended church occasionally, but no -- my parents never used it to control. As a matter of fact religion seems to be on the wane in the United States and much of the developed world.
"A new study from Lifeway Research suggests more Protestant churches closed in 2019 than opened — continuing a decades-long congregational slide that is only expected to accelerate."
https://religionnews.com/2021/05/26/study-more-churches-closing-than-opening/

Islam may be an exception ...
"According to the Pew Research Center’s studies, Islam is the fastest-growing religion in the world. Forecasts suggest that in the second half of the 21st century, Muslims will replace Christians as the world’s largest religious group."
https://www.worldatlas.com/feature/...-world-s-fastest-growing-religious-group.html
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Those "religionists" they've got a lot to answer for, no doubt about that, (well some of us have learnt a new word haven't we on this thread! :) )!
More seriously, I've a mate, (more accurately described as an acquaintance since he tried to stitch me up over something twelve months ago and I've not spoken to him since), who is an atheist, with a very strong religionist son who is actually a hot gospel preacher in the USA!
I was sent a link to the son preaching and I managed less than about five seconds of listening to the tripe, and yes I'm in agreement with those resiling from such attempts at mind control.
The boys mother living in the UK is a Catholic I believe, though I've never met her, and the dad is a clever man, no arguments there, he is now married or in a relationship for the third time, with a much younger woman from Poland, and they have a son getting into his teenage years.

However the clever dad I'd now say can be a bit of a snake oil salesman, though he commands respect in his job, as he's a smooth devil doncha know, (don't know what his third wife's family make of him in Poland, as they'll all be Catholics I believe?)!
 
Buckeye said:
Amen! And what I see in this thread, and in other similar threads, here and on other sites, is that the non-believers are the ones "trying to force their beliefs on others", are the most argumentative, and the most likely to belittle those that they disagree with.

YMMV
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@Buckeye I'm not sure what you are reading into these posts, but I'm a non-believer and ended my post this way.

"I'm still happy for those who are religious and support them because it helps many get through life. Just not for me."

Does this make me argumentative? Am I belittling you in some way?
 
Raddragn said:
"what I see in this thread, and in other similar threads, here and on other sites, is that the non-believers are the ones "trying to force their beliefs on others", are the most argumentative, and the most likely to belittle those that they disagree with"

As I said, I haven't seen any of that by nonbelievers on THIS thread. I can't speak for other threads. It has been my experience in life generally that the believers are the pushy, insistent ones. Generally they have seemed to be completely unable to accept the fact that you are not a believer. Becoming so is not an easy road to take. I was brought up and lived in Christian homes from very early childhood. Coming to the conclusion that you no longer believe is a slow process - at least it was for me - and at times difficult and a bit scary.
I fully accept the idea that some really need religion in their lives and I have no problem with their private practice of it. Just leave me out of it. Don't try to make me live according to your religious precepts and rules.
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What I've found is that while believers may not be as argumentative online, since there's no evidence to support their beliefs other than some literature written almost 2,000 years ago, they're more likely to try with everything they have to get their beliefs legislated. They support candidates who pledge to legislate their religious morality, as we see with restrictions on abortion around the country and justices who will rule in favor of religious zealots.

So while they may appear reasonable and respectful in forums such as this, they're doing everything they can to take away the rights of non-believers, which is why non-believers get passionate in discussions about beliefs and at times may belittle believers.
 
grahamg said:
Those "religionists" they've got a lot to answer for, no doubt about that, (well some of us have learnt a new word haven't we on this thread! :) )!
More seriously, I've a mate, (more accurately described as an acquaintance since he tried to stitch me up over something twelve months ago and I've not spoken to him since), who is an atheist, with a very strong religionist son who is actually a hot gospel preacher in the USA!
I was sent a link to the son preaching and I managed less than about five seconds of listening to the tripe, and yes I'm in agreement with those resiling from such attempts at mind control.
Click to expand...
Religion has a lot to answer for? In a way it does. When humans first recognized their humanity it was religion that gave their lives meaning and purpose, established morality, and provided the glue that held them together. The great monuments of the ancient world handed down to us from our ancestors -- Stonehenge, the pyramids of Egypt and Central America, the Acropolis of Athens, the Moai of Easter Island, and the great cathedrals of Europe -- the list is endless and awesome. Granted it's easy to be critical of religion, and its importance is waning, but in a very real sense I doubt we would be here without it.
 
ElCastor said:
Religion has a lot to answer for? In a way it does. When humans first recognized their humanity it was religion that gave their lives meaning and purpose, established morality, and provided the glue that held them together. The great monuments of the ancient world handed down to us from our ancestors -- Stonehenge, the pyramids of Egypt and Central America, the Acropolis of Athens, the Moai of Easter Island, and the great cathedrals of Europe -- the list is endless and awesome. Granted it's easy to be critical of religion, and its importance is waning, but in a very real sense I doubt we would be here without it.
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Precisely! :)
 
SeniorBen said:
What I've found is that while believers may not be as argumentative online, since there's no evidence to support their beliefs other than some literature written almost 2,000 years ago, they're more likely to try with everything they have to get their beliefs legislated. They support candidates who pledge to legislate their religious morality, as we see with restrictions on abortion around the country and justices who will rule in favor of religious zealots.

So while they may appear reasonable and respectful in forums such as this, they're doing everything they can to take away the rights of non-believers, which is why non-believers get passionate in discussions about beliefs and at times may belittle believers.
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(There you go @Raddragn.)

Actually Catholics are the largest denomination of Christians in the U.S. and they're most likely to vote Democrat, so I'm not sure what you're basing this statement on, "since there's no evidence to support your belief."
 
Pepper said:
@Mr. Ed
"Prior to Jesus's time, the only way to communicate with God was through a priest and sacrifice."

If Jews had 10 adults (male), a quorum or minyan, as it is called, they may pray together without a "priest" or rabbi in a temple and without animal sacrifice. The ancient Jews individually prayed as well, always beginning with Barukh ata Adonai Eloheinu, melekh ha'olam, which translates as Blessed are you, lord our God, King of the Universe.

So, I don't know what you're talking about, 'cause it's not correct, at least I've never heard your version, ever.
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My knowledge on the subject is limited by ignorance. In the Old Testament priestly duties included interceding on behalf of the people. I should have been more specific. I pray and talk to God regularly without an interpreter. It’s just the way it is for me.
 
David777, getting back to your previous post, you stated GodUIE a race of entities does not have omniscience, omnipotence or omnipresence powers when they are so firmly grounded in Christian doctrines. I’ve always believed that God transcends all barriers of time and space by what understand as God is all.
Therefore my relationship to God consists of what I do and think each moment.
All that is is God‘s purpose for existence. Without a purpose would God exist? You and I and everything and everybody are crucial to God’s existence and reason for being.
 
Della said:
(There you go @Raddragn.)

Actually Catholics are the largest denomination of Christians in the U.S. and they're most likely to vote Democrat, so I'm not sure what you're basing this statement on, "since there's no evidence to support your belief."
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Nope, a simple search reveals that Protestants are the largest Christian denomination in the U.S. In fact, there are about twice as many Protestants as Catholics.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_the_United_States

And Catholics are slightly more likely to be registered Republican
https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/09/15/8-facts-about-catholics-and-politics-in-the-u-s/
 
SeniorBen said:
Nope, a simple search reveals that Protestants are the largest Christian denomination in the U.S. In fact, there are about twice as many Protestants as Catholics.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_the_United_States

And Catholics are slightly more likely to be registered Republican
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Nope, Protestantism is a form of Christianity, not a denomination. Within Protestantism there are hundreds, if not thousands, of denominations. Overall there are many more Protestants than Catholics, so you're sort of right on that point.

Catholicism usually calls itself a religion, not a denomination. But some people call it a denomination. So, like a lot of things, it's complicated.

Evangelical Protestants -- the ones who actually believe, go to church, and act upon their beliefs -- are the driving force in the anti-abortion movement. Most Catholics say abortion should be legal, although most also favor some restrictions.

https://theintercept.com/2022/05/12/abortion-roe-v-wade-francis-schaeffer-evangelical-christians/

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/10/20/8-key-findings-about-catholics-and-abortion/
 
Mr. Ed said:
All that is is God‘s purpose for existence. Without a purpose would God exist? You and I and everything and everybody are crucial to God’s existence and reason for being.
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That is certainly a novel idea. I don't believe that I have ever heard that before.
The universe is 13.7 years old, started with the Big Bang. So in your interpretation, does that mean that God started at the same time as the Big Bang? Are God and the universe synonymous? Most religions that I am familiar with believe that God had no beginning and created the universe and time because?
I'm curious about your thoughts on this.
 

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