Have difficulty believing the Bible.

David777 said:
... A balanced argument would at least address some points they argue against however the way that game is played today, such are often purposely crafted for maximum effect conveniently leaving out anything that might weaken their positions....
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This is the essence of debate. Throughout history, all those clustered to interpret the ten commandments and the various biblical passages did (and continue to do) the same thing: include what fits their desired narrative and dismiss or debunk what goes against their grain. I doubt that the goal was ever to present a balanced argument, just to squabble over interpretation of minutia. And whoever held the chisel or quill or pen had the last word.
 

Lara said:
Why did God change His demeanor in the New Testament? Because He loved man despite their sins and wanted to show us His love and offer His forgiveness of our wrongs, a gift for the taking, by sending a Savior (Jesus) to save us from our sins and pay our punishment.
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What a nice father figure that would create a sacrificial lamb of a mortal woman and his own god-stuff and sit by while the child is slowly tortured until dead. My own biological father was far better than that. As someone else here said, why didn't the all-powerful father just forgive us without all the brutality?
 
Em in Ohio said:
What a nice father figure that would create a sacrificial lamb of a mortal woman and his own god-stuff and sit by while the child is slowly tortured until dead. My own biological father was far better than that. As someone else here said, why didn't the all-powerful father just forgive us without all the brutality?
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Assuming that what is written is genuine, on the cross Jesus is reported as saying 'Father, Father, why have you forsaken me?' That tells me that Jesus himself was preaching what he personally believed, which was not necessarily the truth.
 

Lavinia said:
Assuming that what is written is genuine, on the cross Jesus is reported as saying 'Father, Father, why have you forsaken me?' That tells me that Jesus himself was preaching what he personally believed, which was not necessarily the truth.
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Psalm 22:
My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Why are you so far from saving me, so far from the words of my groaning? O my God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer, by night, and am not silent.

He was reciting a prayer. Dying and praying. Not unusual. Common, I'd say. :)
 
Imagine a human ruler (dictator? tyrant?) who ruled in the same style as "God" does. Demanding allegiance, fear, love for him no matter what he does, loyalty, no worship of any other gods (even though there aren't any), endless babbling about how wonderful he is.

No matter what cruelty or torture is inflicted on mankind, no matter what diseases, suffering, natural disasters, and so on, we are ordered to love this deity.

Would we admire a human head of state who behaved like that?

As for the Ten Commandments, here they are:

  1. You shall have no other gods before Me.
  2. You shall not make idols.
  3. You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.
  4. Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
  5. Honor your father and your mother.
  6. You shall not murder.
  7. You shall not commit adultery.
  8. You shall not steal.
  9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
  10. You shall not covet.
The first four are all about honoring God, once again. (That fourth one is because God rested from creating the earth on the seventh day, so again it's about him.)

Then the Commandments move on to human behavior. OK, some of those ideas are pretty good, such as not murdering or stealing. But coveting (being envious) is bad enough to be up there with the big sins? Should all fathers and mothers necessarily be honored, no matter what? If you don't honor the Sabbath, you should be put to death?

The whole thing sounds pretty slapdash to me; Moses had to come up with something, so he scribbled down a bunch of rules. If there even was a Moses, and if any of it really happened. More likely, somebody wrote the original story, then, over the centuries, various scribes added their advice to the list, which is why it's so discombobulated and inconsistent. And the narcissistic stuff in it is just plain crude.

Difficulty believing the Bible? I'd say that's the understatement of the century! I agree with Capt Lightning, C50, and all the others here who believe it is a work of fiction (or at best, a distorted version of history), used down through the centuries to control people and give power to organized religions. Belief in the Bible as literal truth (both old and new testaments) does not make people good; it just makes them credulous.
 
Sunny said:
Imagine a human ruler (dictator? tyrant?) who ruled in the same style as "God" does. Demanding allegiance, fear, love for him no matter what he does, loyalty, no worship of any other gods (even though there aren't any), endless babbling about how wonderful he is.
No matter what cruelty or torture is inflicted on mankind, no matter what diseases, suffering, natural disasters, and so on, we are ordered to love this deity.

Would we admire a human head of state who behaved like that?

As for the Ten Commandments, here they are:

  1. You shall have no other gods before Me.
  2. You shall not make idols.
  3. You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.
  4. Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
  5. Honor your father and your mother.
  6. You shall not murder.
  7. You shall not commit adultery.
  8. You shall not steal.
  9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
  10. You shall not covet.
The first four are all about honoring God, once again. (That fourth one is because God rested from creating the earth on the seventh day, so again it's about him.)

Then the Commandments move on to human behavior. OK, some of those ideas are pretty good, such as not murdering or stealing. But coveting (being envious) is bad enough to be up there with the big sins? Should all fathers and mothers necessarily be honored, no matter what? If you don't honor the Sabbath, you should be put to death?

The whole thing sounds pretty slapdash to me; Moses had to come up with something, so he scribbled down a bunch of rules. If there even was a Moses, and if any of it really happened. More likely, somebody wrote the original story, then, over the centuries, various scribes added their advice to the list, which is why it's so discombobulated and inconsistent. And the narcissistic stuff in it is just plain crude.

Difficulty believing the Bible? I'd say that's the understatement of the century! I agree with Capt Lightning, C50, and all the others here who believe it is a work of fiction (or at best, a distorted version of history), used down through the centuries to control people and give power to organized religions. Belief in the Bible as literal truth (both old and new testaments) does not make people good; it just makes them credulous.
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In fairness you've given us only one interpretation of what is being said, and forgotten at the same time just how many statements there are few would wish to disagree with, such as "Love one another", (as embroidered on to a tapestry behind me in a mates kitchen, left there by his late mother).
" Do unto others as you would be done unto", (no arguments we'd all like a world where that applies, or applies and is followed a little more wouldn't we!). :)
 
Em in Ohio said:
This is the essence of debate. Throughout history, all those clustered to interpret the ten commandments and the various biblical passages did (and continue to do) the same thing: include what fits their desired narrative and dismiss or debunk what goes against their grain. I doubt that the goal was ever to present a balanced argument, just to squabble over interpretation of minutia. And whoever held the chisel or quill or pen had the last word.
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It is certainly a great question as to what was in the minds of those holding the chisel, quill or pen, in times we can only really try to imagine, where everyone's life must have been so uncertain due to warfare, pestilence, famine, the whim of a despotic ruler, lack of basic medical assistance, (anaesthetics, antibiotics etc.).
One thing challenging those despotic rulers to an extent was the statement, "Grant unto Caesar what is Caerars, grant unto God what is Gods"!
 
Lavinia said:
Assuming that what is written is genuine, on the cross Jesus is reported as saying 'Father, Father, why have you forsaken me?' That tells me that Jesus himself was preaching what he personally believed, which was not necessarily the truth.
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What any of us would truly have in our minds as we face our own ends is something I'd suggest we find it hard to imagine or think about!
My brother heard my mother tell him she loved him a week or so before she died, but wondered about it when he found she'd left him out of her will, (but I still think she did, in spite of this fact!)
 
grahamg said:
What any of us would truly have in our minds as we face our own ends is something I'd suggest we find it hard to imagine or think about!
My brother heard my mother tell him she loved him a week or so before she died, but wondered about it when he found she'd left him out of her will, (but I still think she did, in spite of this fact!)
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I interpret it to mean that he was expecting a miraculous rescue, even though he believed he would be resurrected. Jesus was not working alone, he was part of a group.
 
Lavinia said:
I interpret it to mean that he was expecting a miraculous rescue, even though he believed he would be resurrected. Jesus was not working alone, he was part of a group.
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I've heard it said expressing doubt showed a kind of link to earthly life, or the life we all lead, (if I've remembered that correctly which I wouldn't take for granted?)
 
Sunny said:
Imagine a human ruler (dictator? tyrant?) who ruled in the same style as "God" does. Demanding allegiance, fear, love for him no matter what he does, loyalty, no worship of any other gods (even though there aren't any), endless babbling about how wonderful he is.

No matter what cruelty or torture is inflicted on mankind, no matter what diseases, suffering, natural disasters, and so on, we are ordered to love this deity.

Would we admire a human head of state who behaved like that?

As for the Ten Commandments, here they are:

  1. You shall have no other gods before Me.
  2. You shall not make idols.
  3. You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.
  4. Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
  5. Honor your father and your mother.
  6. You shall not murder.
  7. You shall not commit adultery.
  8. You shall not steal.
  9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
  10. You shall not covet.
The first four are all about honoring God, once again. (That fourth one is because God rested from creating the earth on the seventh day, so again it's about him.)

Then the Commandments move on to human behavior. OK, some of those ideas are pretty good, such as not murdering or stealing. But coveting (being envious) is bad enough to be up there with the big sins? Should all fathers and mothers necessarily be honored, no matter what? If you don't honor the Sabbath, you should be put to death?

The whole thing sounds pretty slapdash to me; Moses had to come up with something, so he scribbled down a bunch of rules. If there even was a Moses, and if any of it really happened. More likely, somebody wrote the original story, then, over the centuries, various scribes added their advice to the list, which is why it's so discombobulated and inconsistent. And the narcissistic stuff in it is just plain crude.

Difficulty believing the Bible? I'd say that's the understatement of the century! I agree with Capt Lightning, C50, and all the others here who believe it is a work of fiction (or at best, a distorted version of history), used down through the centuries to control people and give power to organized religions. Belief in the Bible as literal truth (both old and new testaments) does not make people good; it just makes them credulous.
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My difficulty with the bible begins with the described nature of "God." Without going into a long list of derogatory adjectives, I just can't respect the personage described. The problems that I have with the bible include the time-table of events, the plagiarism, the translations, editing, and perpetual revisions. Certainly, there are some worthy behavioral guidelines - specific to the places and times - but they were not original ideas and they would fit on one page.

I'm in the process of writing my own behavioral guidelines. Perhaps they are words given to me directly by this biblical god: The Newest New Testament by Em ! I demand that everyone listen and obey or else! (-;
 
grahamg said:
It is certainly a great question as to what was in the minds of those holding the chisel, quill or pen, in times we can only really try to imagine, where everyone's life must have been so uncertain due to warfare, pestilence, famine, the whim of a despotic ruler, lack of basic medical assistance, (anaesthetics, antibiotics etc.).
One thing challenging those despotic rulers to an extent was the statement, "Grant unto Caesar what is Caerars, grant unto God what is Gods"!
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Haha - or in other words, "Despite your life being total crap, you still have to pay your taxes!"
 
I believe in God. I believe I know God. I believe the bible is the word of God. I don't believe in people...much.
I don't believe in trying to force what I believe on others. I believe in respecting others. It would be nice if others responded in kind. I believe this life is but one stage in my journey, so I don't get too upset about things. After all, I'm not God.
 
The Lord is King forever and ever;
The nations will perish from His land.
17
O Lord, You have heard the desire of the humble and oppressed;
You will strengthen their heart, You will incline Your ear to hear,
18
To vindicate and obtain justice for the fatherless and the oppressed,
So that man who is of the earth will no longer terrify them.
 
@Mr. Ed >>>I’ve heard one of the main objections regarding homosexuality is same-sex relationship do not procreate the species. If this is true, the same law should apply planned parenthood, birth control and contraception.

God's terse, simple to understand 10 Commandments were addressed towards Israelites primitives of that era, not other nations, and especially not 2 millennium later. It is true that Moses and then the Levite priest sect over centuries used the OT as a base to expand those laws and not surprisingly claimed they were directly from God that was probably somewhat true in Moses days but later a convenient means of manipulating people by using supposed God's authority. Laws that were not necessarily addressed towards other nations or future eras, something critics avoid mentioning. Jesus wisely in most cases didn't openly object to parts of OT scripture he disagreed with or knew to be lies, lest even his followers would have left.

For centuries after Jesus was executed, other NT church authorities again claimed they were inspired by God's Holy Spirit (likely a di-hydrogen oxide nanorobot cloud) that while IMO true in some cases, was obviously not in others regardless of how much church authorities for the sake of their own agendas have insisted so. Simple logic says churches with different dogma cannot both be correct nor gospel writings showing Jesus direct statements that differed somewhat, a result of the nature of ancient oral communication. Critics point to scripture that they claim is from God and then conveniently leave out how Jesus in a list of gospel scriptures condemned SOME of that same scripture as obviously the work of men.

Mat 15:5>14
“But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever I have that would help you has been given to God,” he is not to honor his father or mother.’ And by this you have invalidated the word of God for the sake of your tradition. “You hypocrites, rightly did Isaiah prophesy about you, by saying: ‘THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS, BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME. ‘AND IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME,
TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE COMMANDMENTS OF MEN.’”

After Jesus called the crowd to Him, He said to them, “Hear and understand! “It is not what enters the mouth that defiles the person, but what comes out of the mouth, this defiles the person.” Then the disciples came and *said to Him, “Do You know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this statement?”But He answered and said, “Every plant which My heavenly Father did not plant will be uprooted. “Leave them alone; they are blind guides of blind people. And if a person who is blind guides another who is blind, both will fall into a pit.”
 
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@Mr. Ed >>>Introduction of the New Testament changed God’s demeanor to lovey-dovey giving direct access to God through Jesus Christ. God becomes love, a far cry from Old Testament God. Why?

Actually that is another cherry picked exaggeration often tossed by critics at simple minded audiences. For example, Jesus below related the fate of evildoers:

Mat 13:47>50 [Jesus] “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet that was cast into the sea and gathered fish of every kind; and when it was filled, they pulled it up on the beach; and they sat down and gathered the good fish into containers, but the bad they threw away. “So it will be at the end of the age: the angels will come forth and remove the wicked from among the righteous, and they will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

That scripture also tends to reflect another thing I often relate, that God with his "angels" are part of a race of UIEs. To state Jesus thought differently concerning love and evil is simple minded as though critics expect he would be the actual physical mechanism for destruction. So no... sorry, Jesus didn't personally smite the Pharisees or Romans. This also is clear scripture that logic shows God does not have omniscience, omnipotence, and omnipresence, powers. If God had such magic like powers, he could just think something without help from angels and it would happen. In like matter Jesus's disease curing miracles probably used physical mechanisms that sound much like nanorobots many scientist today are actively developing.

Jesus obviously disgusted with morals of average humans, did expect the above destruction would happen during that first century period while his followers were still alive. It was only months afterward that Jesus resorted to using a literate Greek educated enemy Saul (Paul), since actually writings would be absolutely necessary for a church over generations to succeed. I expect God decided Peter's church had such a good start with St. Paul's work that he didn't need to interfere with humankind at least for the foreseeable near non-technological centuries the UIE race probably greatly wanted to avoid. The whole OT history outside the Moses era, is a testament to very limited interference with a few prophets over centuries with Jesus our last chance of redemption that is not going well.
 
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Em in Ohio said:
Haha - or in other words, "Despite your life being total crap, you still have to pay your taxes!"
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Where would we be without taxes though, if you think about it?

I must not get too political but wealth redistribution may be necessary unless you're prepared to see any or all of your fellow citizens starve, (if all wealth in a country became concentrated in your hands, and your hands alone, to use an extreme example!)?
 
grahamg said:
Where would we be without taxes though, if you think about it?

I must not get too political but wealth redistribution may be necessary unless you're prepared to see any or all of your fellow citizens starve, (if all wealth in a country became concentrated in your hands, and your hands alone, to use an extreme example!)?
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Not difficult. I have always been good to help a neighbor who needed it. Too bad more can't say the same, or there would be a lot less need for taxes. People USED to do that...
 
oldaunt said:
Not difficult. I have always been good to help a neighbor who needed it. Too bad more can't say the same, or there would be a lot less need for taxes. People USED to do that...
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You and a few others maybe, (not me obviously, its all their own fault they're all in the gutter in my view!), so maybe you'll concede a bit of taxing tight skinflints may be necessary to make up for folks like me(?). :)
 
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Sunny said:
Imagine a human ruler (dictator? tyrant?) who ruled in the same style as "God" does. Demanding allegiance, fear, love for him no matter what he does, loyalty, no worship of any other gods (even though there aren't any), endless babbling about how wonderful he is.

No matter what cruelty or torture is inflicted on mankind, no matter what diseases, suffering, natural disasters, and so on, we are ordered to love this deity.

Would we admire a human head of state who behaved like that?

As for the Ten Commandments, here they are:

  1. You shall have no other gods before Me.
  2. You shall not make idols.
  3. You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.
  4. Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
  5. Honor your father and your mother.
  6. You shall not murder.
  7. You shall not commit adultery.
  8. You shall not steal.
  9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
  10. You shall not covet.
The first four are all about honoring God, once again. (That fourth one is because God rested from creating the earth on the seventh day, so again it's about him.)

Then the Commandments move on to human behavior. OK, some of those ideas are pretty good, such as not murdering or stealing. But coveting (being envious) is bad enough to be up there with the big sins? Should all fathers and mothers necessarily be honored, no matter what? If you don't honor the Sabbath, you should be put to death?

The whole thing sounds pretty slapdash to me; Moses had to come up with something, so he scribbled down a bunch of rules. If there even was a Moses, and if any of it really happened. More likely, somebody wrote the original story, then, over the centuries, various scribes added their advice to the list, which is why it's so discombobulated and inconsistent. And the narcissistic stuff in it is just plain crude.

Difficulty believing the Bible? I'd say that's the understatement of the century! I agree with Capt Lightning, C50, and all the others here who believe it is a work of fiction (or at best, a distorted version of history), used down through the centuries to control people and give power to organized religions. Belief in the Bible as literal truth (both old and new testaments) does not make people good; it just makes them credulous.
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"God is Love" by definition -
1John 4: 7
Beloved, let’s love one another; for love is from God, and everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 The one who does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9 By this the love of God was revealed in us, that God has sent His only Son into the world so that we may live through Him.

God is infinite in wisdom and power, is omnipresent - which means there is an infinite gap in wisdom, ability, power, presence for all finite beings between themselves and God - by definition.

The fallacy that finite created humans - should "set the standard" for how one is to be worshiped as a God - is not logical, even a little.

God created a pristine perfect sinless universe with flawless sentient beings like Angels and humans. God's paradise universe had no suffering, no death, no disease and it had a tree of life that would enable living forever.

God "is love" which means he also gave them free will. And over time "some" angels chose rebellion. The Bible says both Adam and Eve were duped into rebellion by Satan the leader of the fallen angels. And He (God) informed them (all intelligent life) of the consequence of rebellion. The first death and also the Rev 20 "second death" - "lake of fire"

Instead of instantly zaaaping Lucifer into vapor the moment he sinned God was merciful. Instead of zaaaping the angels that reveled as soon as they sinned - God was merciful. Instead of zaaaping Adam and Eve into vapor the moment they sinned - God was merciful and setup the plan of salvation for them -- the Gospel.

In the Gospel - God would offer Himself in the form of the incarnate Son of God - as Jesus the Christ. Paying for the second death torment and suffering of all mankind. Paying the full price of the penalty for each and every sin.

In the Gospel God will once again restore the universe of free will intelligent beings back to its pristine, sinless paradise state.

And Like the ultimate "surgeon" He will excise the cancer of rebellion , crime, sin, atrocity ... from the universe.
 
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JustDave said:
Quoting the Bible to people who don't believe in the Bible seems like a waste of time. Quoting Darwin to a fundamentalist is likewise a waste of time.
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Probably quite true. However there are people who are interested in the topics and controversies raised (like me) and those who are "undecided." Personally, I'm okay with the quotes, but would like to know which version of the bible they are from.
 

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