You are lucky I am your father, (drawing attention to fatherlessness)

The title of this thread is intended to draw attention obviously, and it is likely a number of forum members will wish to disagree with the theme behind the title, that there is something wrong in the world when fatherlessness is so prevalent, ("fatherlessness" here meaning natural fathers not having contact with their children during most/all their years growing up).
For boys in particular, a fatherless childhood in many of our urban environments can spell trouble. The drug dealer down on the corner, or local gang members, may become models of male behavior and substitute father figures.
 

I'm often criticised on this forum, especially when raising the subject of fathers/parents rights, or lack of them in the UK, (occasionally my own parenting gets a good kicking from those choosing to indulge themselves, when obviously they can have no real idea what went on in my own family following marital breakdown).
However, disparaging your own father as you do, (and of course my own daughter has done, even though I believe I could not have loved a child more), raises some awkward questions in my mind, the first being is it possible to try to look at matters the way your father must have had to do?
No one can be absolutely sure, given whatever it was made him behave as he did, that in the same circumstances you wouldn't have behaved the same way. You might resist that thought, and please accept I've come across enough fathers seemingly deserving the description "deadbeat dads", (and even some fathers who were hardworking enough to earn money to pay towards their children who could not show love and affection towards them for whatever reason, whose children you have to feel for because of this).
My daughter can condemn me all she wishes, ("you ruined the first twelve years of my life" for example), but up to the age of twelve her own wishes would have to have been ignored had I not complied when she said, "I hate you, you are horrible,....., keep coming daddy", (seemingly unware of the contractions contained in her statements).

Kids can suffer I agree, and this thread suggests widespread "fatherlessness" in the UK is a big enough issue already, (meaning "natural fathers not seeing their children, as stated in an earlier post), and its obviously not possible to fix everything that can go wrong when marriages fail etc., but a modest enough aim in the UK is surely to give those "decent dads/parents" who do wish to play their part emotionally as well as financially in their children's lives at least the meagrest of statutory rights, (so that the lack of such rights doesn't cause dads who might provide their children with love and care to give up before they get started).
I am not sure what your message is about in this thread. I feel the pain of separation with your daughter couched by many words. Here, you mention that your daughter has condemned you ("I hate you..."). Those were harsh words she said to you. Probably in anger. Those are precious moments between you and her that, frankly IMO, should not be aired in public. When a child feels that way about a parent, whether they are male or female, something is lacking in their life. Did you try and resolve these issues with her? You don't need to answer. Just giving you thoughts to reflect upon.
 
A lot of examples & distress about your adult daughter not wanting to acknowledge you but nothing about your right to file for rights under the system in place in the UK

https://www.gov.uk/looking-after-children-divorce/apply-for-court-order
Yes, I'm leaving out the things you're interested in on this thread or now, (that's okay isn't it, we've covered most if not all the ground so often already!).
I did wonder whether it might be informative to try to ask some of the fathers/grandparents/mothers I used to campaign alongside in the streets of London twenty years ago to give their insights, but maybe they will have forgotten me by now, and moved on in their lives.

There is a man from the USA who might show an interest in our discussions, and I have heard from him more recently so perhaps he's the right person to ask whether he'd share his experiences, (he might shock some people, though very happily for all concerned everything seems to have worked out very well regarding his son, after a long and difficult period when everything seemed to go against him).
 

A lot of things can be legislated but affection is not one of them.
You are right in one sense but not in another.

I've heard it said that although family courts may or may not assist in helping fathers/mothers stay in contact with their children, one thing they can certainly do is destroy relationships between parents and their children, (or help those destroying said relationships).
 
For boys in particular, a fatherless childhood in many of our urban environments can spell trouble. The drug dealer down on the corner, or local gang members, may become models of male behavior and substitute father figures.
Its hard to be absolutely certain, but anyone who has had a settled home life knows how much our parents did for us, even if we didn't fully appreciate it at the time.

Julia Tugenhat wrote an excellent book called, "What children and young people can tell us about divorce and separation".

She didn't get cooperation from the authorities when finding children willing to speak about heir experiences but still managed to find a reasonable number of children to allow her to make an assessment. Amongst the twenty or so she got to know, the most telling examples I think were the proportion who said things like, "I'm not bothered about my dad", and yet when she got to look deeper she discovered just how "bothered" they really were, and yet felt the need to put on a brave face all the time, and certainly not upset their mothers.
 
I am not sure what your message is about in this thread. I feel the pain of separation with your daughter couched by many words. Here, you mention that your daughter has condemned you ("I hate you..."). Those were harsh words she said to you. Probably in anger. Those are precious moments between you and her that, frankly IMO, should not be aired in public. When a child feels that way about a parent, whether they are male or female, something is lacking in their life. Did you try and resolve these issues with her? You don't need to answer. Just giving you thoughts to reflect upon.
I'll probably come back to you in a private message if that is okay, (in order to try to avoid complicating the thread further here, if you see what I mean?).
 
Yeah, we've all got our baggage

Loved my folks

Dad could be a bit blunt
'You shouldn't be here' I found rather endearing

Most parents give it their best shot
Some never had the right ammo in the first place
Some have a propensity for self-unflicked wounds
Some run
 
You are right in one sense but not in another.

I've heard it said that although family courts may or may not assist in helping fathers/mothers stay in contact with their children, one thing they can certainly do is destroy relationships between parents and their children, (or help those destroying said relationships).
We are all entitled to our own opinions. If assigning blame for the situation to the court system brings you joy and contentment, go for it.
 
We are all entitled to our own opinions. If assigning blame for the situation to the court system brings you joy and contentment, go for it.
You mention my "assigning blame,...... to the court system, etc., etc.,".

If you'd attended a meeting in Portcullis House, opposite our Houses of Parliament in London about twenty years ago, hosted by the then leader of the Conservative Party, Michael Howard, and listened to the views of all those people attending from any of the more responsible parents and grandparents group, then you might understand the level of "assigning blame" prevalent amongst all those present. This was so much so that the one government appointed body which everyone wished to express their displeasure concerning, were not invited to the meeting, (known by the acronym CAFCASS).

That's how strongly they all felt about the way things were done here twenty years ago, and as far as I'm aware things have not improved since, (the law under which they carry out their hasn't changed either, hence my desire to get folks here to consider whether they are content that decent parents in the UK are denied statutory rights, (my question being ignored here suggests to me folks are not bothered unfortunately).
 
Yeah, we've all got our baggage
Loved my folks, Dad could be a bit blunt
'You shouldn't be here' I found rather endearing
Most parents give it their best shot
Some never had the right ammo in the first place
Some have a propensity for self-unflicked wounds. Some run
Here is some research or information connected to the thread topic:
https://www.unicef.org/child-rights-convention/convention-text-childrens-version

Quote:
"Children can choose their own thoughts, opinions and religion, but this should not stop other people from enjoying their rights. Parents can guide children,...."
 
A lot of examples & distress about your adult daughter not wanting to acknowledge you but nothing about your right to file for rights under the system in place in the UK

https://www.gov.uk/looking-after-children-divorce/apply-for-court-order
You may find the following site informative concerning the UK family law situation, included the experiences of some fathers have reported:
https://www.separateddads.co.uk/what-goes-into-cafcass-family-report.html

(P.S. If you can bear in mind the fact that none of the fathers/parents reporting their experiences have any statutory rights here this may explain how those charged by the state to intervene in their family's lives were able to act as they did)

Quote 1.:
"I have just had my Remote Directions Hearing to say it went bad is a understatement I found out the wife had applied for a non molestation order 6 days before the hearing? "Convenient" I thought as she never got her scott schedule done in time for the hearing either? I mentioned it to the Judge but she never batted a eyelid? I was so unprepared for her allegations & also the Cafcass caseworker safeguarding report no mention of what I said? Just mostly damaging about me nearly the same as what my wife had said? I have found out since the hearing I was supposed to get the Cafcass report but I never received it? It's as if I was a piece of meat/lamb to the slaughter. I lost it had a rant the told the Judge I was sorry, left the phone hearing before I should have. I felt I had complied with everything that was asked of me in the Court order in time for the hearing but I was let down by Cafcass with the report, & the District Judge did not seem to care that my wife had not complied with the Scott Schedule, or School reports before the hearing as the Court order requested? Hence what was the point of a direction hearing? It was always going to go to a fact finding hearing."

Quote 2.:
"Went to court Cafcass recommended supervised contact where my parents would supervise, but in a interim but before we went in court my exes solicitor said her client my ex didn't wat this and therefore its not been allowed."

Quote 3.:
"I separated from my wife in February 2017. 2 months later she made a criminal complaint against me. She alleged I had subjected her too controlling and coercive behavior and had assaulted her. Fortunately I was able to provide the police with a lot of material to undermine her complaint and I was not prosecuted. At the time of our separation, our son was 9 years old and he was angry with his mum for bringing the marriage to an end. I successfully applied to the court for a child arrangement order and was able to see my son regularly for a period of 2 years. Sadly now my son has turned against and has stated he no longer wishes to see me He has told the Cafcass advisor untruths and stated he no longer wishes to see me. This is a very hard pill to swallow as both myself, family and friends I've shown him a great deal of love and support. I'm of the view that is Mum I slowly turned him against me. Friends and family tell me to walk away and leave them to it as I could not have done any more. Unable to do this as I am his father and I still love him daily and remember the great times we had together prior to recent events unfolding. I I intend to address the court personally with a rational heartfelt honest statement when I attend letter this month. I suppose what I'm asking, as any other fathers had similar experiences, what advice can they offer and will the judges listen to me?"

Quote 4.:
"Hello, I’m wondering if anyone can help. My partner has had an ongoing case to see his child for almost three years now. He should have received photos, letters, be allowed to send birthday and Christmas presents etc for the last 18 months or so, however his ex hasn’t done any or this or allowed him to send any. His court hearing for his child arrangements order has now been postponed TWICE as a result of CAFCASS not filing their report in time, on both occasions. This has delayed contact with his child by 7 months. He has attended a DAPP course, as requested by the court and been present at all fact finding hearings etc, paid his child maintenance and paid for solicitor fees on top of this- costing nearly £15,000 up to present. We are just looking for some advice regarding where we stand? He hasn’t had any contact with his child since they were 2, they are now nearly 5 and therefore it’s unlikely they will remember him. CAFCASS have made this process very frustrating and he is really down because of it. Can anyone offer any advice?"

Quote 5.:
"It amazes me that mothers complain about the lack of contact fathers have with their respective children, only in most of these cases it's the mothers that prevent the contact. Cafcass what a joke. I found most of these Reporters have been adopted or been in care themselves - so their judgement is tainted by their own experiences or viewpoint on parents - thus many men not seeing their children. Hopefully the British government will understand that gang violence is in majority of cases, due to a lack father's contact with their respective children."
 
More similar experiences reported here:

Quote 6.:
"CAFCASS came to my house to see me and my children and it was the last time I saw my children. We did an Easter egg hunt, made Easter eggs, went bowling in the afternoon but the children had miserable faces, my ex wife had kept them up all night. They were irritable and are very negative towards me (parental alienation?). Age 11. CAFCASS recommend it is not appropriate for me to be near them. I intimidate them, bad influence and not happy. I feel like I invited a wrecking ball into our home. We played some word games, CAFCASS officer reported I was belittling her. I had a timetable of activities, Cafcass reported I was too rigid and structured. Children bit off, thats because they are scared of me. There wasn't a single positive. Maybe I should have just gone down to MacDonalds and sat outside smoking weed. I love my children and 10 years of struggling to get contact (=10 years being denied it), constant broken court orders and now they've gone. Its heartbreaking."

Quote 7.:
"I first took my ex to court in November 2017 for contact as she had stopped it yet again I got granted contact but had to go back as disagreement on travel arrangements. I met my new partner and I started staying at hers on a weekend also so I was close so I didn’t have to travel when I had my contact anyways the children’s mother didn’t like the idea of me being with someone else and made lies up in court stating I wasn’t consistent enough and it was effecting the children’s education but a couple weeks prior I spoke to my child’s head teacher to ask how she was doing in school etc and was told she was a very hard worker very pleasant always asking for more work to do and wished they had more children like her but cause the mother told the courts that the education was falling due to my contact or my consistency and asked the courts to stop my contact. So the clerk asked the woman from cafcass as she said that there are no safeguarding issues at all however since the children’s mother has stated that the education has fallen I would recommend that the contact should be stopped... is there anything I can do about this as my ex is a very convincing compulsive liar."

Quote 8.:
"Hi, My soon to be ex wife is making my time with my children very difficult, she pre arranges what and where I should take them prior to my collecting, she calls them many times when in my care saying she misses them which makes them feel guilty about being with me. she tries to make me feel like a hated person when I'm collecting my boys from there school. its becoming unbearable, I have a court arrangement in place. I have ad to block her emails and her mobile but have left her landline so she can contact the boys when I have them. she seems to have this control issue and demands I do this and that with words like immediately! I love my children very much and I'm so worried she is using them to hurt me."

Quote 9.:
"Can a CAFCASS report be challenged? When I met with CAFCASS I said to my solicitor that I felt that they had already sided with my ex-wife and I have just received the report, most of what I spoke about seems to have been omitted. There seems to be lots of mention of the parents being hostile to one another (which is bad for our son), yet all of this has been generated by my ex. There has been no mention of the threats, verbal abuse that I've been on the receiving end of, the manipulating and controlling behaviour and generally putting our son in the middle of thing that are for adults. I've tried to make things as amicable as possible, paying for nursery costs when I wasn't obliged to do so, and even a holiday on one occasion.I filed to the court for 50:50, she counter filed a month later that I have our son every other weekend and one night for dinner. CAFCASS' one sided report is now supporting her, which makes me think what have I done!?"
 
Its hard to be absolutely certain, but anyone who has had a settled home life knows how much our parents did for us, even if we didn't fully appreciate it at the time.

Julia Tugenhat wrote an excellent book called, "What children and young people can tell us about divorce and separation".

She didn't get cooperation from the authorities when finding children willing to speak about heir experiences but still managed to find a reasonable number of children to allow her to make an assessment. Amongst the twenty or so she got to know, the most telling examples I think were the proportion who said things like, "I'm not bothered about my dad", and yet when she got to look deeper she discovered just how "bothered" they really were, and yet felt the need to put on a brave face all the time, and certainly not upset their mothers.
Children or even young adults are not who should be studied. They are possibly too controlled or essentially brain washed at that age. They should talk to people in their 30's, 40's, 50's 60's and beyond who had difficult and more childhoods. It can take years to come out of the FOG (fear obligation guilt) and process what happened to them. People like me, with an essentially non existent resiliency score had no idea what had and was happening to them. It's taken me years to process it. Not one person told me the childhood I was living was purely insane.

I can look back now and I'm aware that my bio-dad probably wasn't much when it came to us kids. He didn't make any effort to see us when my mother cut us off from him. Am I 100% sure he didn't and how do I know this? Because I would have known about it. My mother never kept anything negative from me. She would have probably screamed it at me so I know he didn't try.
 
Children or even young adults are not who should be studied. They are possibly too controlled or essentially brain washed at that age. They should talk to people in their 30's, 40's, 50's 60's and beyond who had difficult and more childhoods. It can take years to come out of the FOG (fear obligation guilt) and process what happened to them. People like me, with an essentially non existent resiliency score had no idea what had and was happening to them. It's taken me years to process it. Not one person told me the childhood I was living was purely insane.

I can look back now and I'm aware that my bio-dad probably wasn't much when it came to us kids. He didn't make any effort to see us when my mother cut us off from him. Am I 100% sure he didn't and how do I know this? Because I would have known about it. My mother never kept anything negative from me. She would have probably screamed it at me so I know he didn't try.
I wouldn't choose to criticise Julia Tugenhat for her study, (if that was your meaning?), not least because children and young people are being "studied" in every report produced by those Cafcass officials, (calling themselves "reporters" no less!).
I would agree though, that shoving the children, ("and their views"), forward is a process with very negative consequences in most cases I'd argue. As I've said previously on this thread, doing so denies them, (and their fathers/non-resident parents), the right to a private life. You shouldn't as an "outsider" be able to ask a child "Do you love your parent", but they do this without any compunction.
 
Appreciate the examples. Obviously the system in the UK is trying to make sure it's the children that benefit. This site seems like the government is spending resources to get it right.
https://www.cafcass.gov.uk/grown-up...ther/cafcass-positive-co-parenting-programme/
As has been pointed out one side is represented or better said without the full story from both sides it's not fair to judge.
The reputation of the organisation you have faith in could not have been lower twenty years ago, as I've said.

I object to its role, as described in my post above this one, and feel it is unreasonable to suggest you have any right to hear all sides of every argument about someone's private life, just as it is unreasonable for those Cafcass officers to do so in my view.

An assumption is needed, (a legal assumption I'm referring to), "UNLESS" this western society we all enjoy is so convinced even decent non resident parents (however this is defined, I'd suggest it should be quite tightly defined), does not want to see any meaningful statutory rights for non-resident parents, (the question you answer in my view by not answering!)?
 
The reputation of the organisation you have faith in could not have been lower twenty years ago, as I've said.

I object to its role, as described in my post above this one, and feel it is unreasonable to suggest you have any right to hear all sides of every argument about someone's private life, just as it is unreasonable for those Cafcass officers to do so in my view.

An assumption is needed, (a legal assumption I'm referring to), "UNLESS" this western society we all enjoy is so convinced even decent non resident parents (however this is defined, I'd suggest it should be quite tightly defined), does not want to see any meaningful statutory rights for non-resident parents, (the question you answer in my view by not answering!)?
No system is 100% accurate, but the fact that a system is needed to try to suit the needs of a child is in the right direction. This most recent post you claim wasn't fair 20 years ago. I have no way of knowing other than your posts how decisions were made in your case.

What I do know from your posts is that your marriage was to a woman that wanted a child. You married her, supplied the sperm to make that happen.

Other posts. I think you posted that she was unfaithful & left you for another man. Toss in posts about difficulties with other employees. Combine that with a middle aged daughter that doesn't want to communicate with you & a rocky picture of you begins to emerge.

You could be the nicest guy on earth but for whatever reason the system that is in place to look out for the best interest of children didn't favor you. Were they wrong? Possibly. No way for me to know since all I know is from your posts that IMO don't paint a good picture.
 
No system is 100% accurate, but the fact that a system is needed to try to suit the needs of a child is in the right direction. (Break)
You could be the nicest guy on earth but for whatever reason the system that is in place to look out for the best interest of children didn't favor you. Were they wrong? Possibly. No way for me to know since all I know is from your posts that IMO don't paint a good picture.
You continue to refuse to answer whether you wish to deny any parent statutory rights.

You continue to assert faith in a system you say tries to suit the needs of the child.

Your assumption "I may be in the wrong" is my reason why decent parents need some statutory rights to protect their relationships with their children from people who think as you do, (i.e. "They have the right to judge others concerning their children, even where there are no allegations of harm").

A Canadian lawyer called Goldwater stated thirty years ago that: "There is a need for privacy in close relationships", but you disregard their view, thinking you know better.

Whatever you say to me concerning my daughter you could just as easily say to everyone of the fathers I've quoted on this thread, and you would not have the slightest qualms about doing so, (adding insult to injury if you're wrong, as you will be in most cases).

Break as many relationships between decent dads/parents as you and others like, you wont be there to puck up the pieces, you wont do any of the things those people damaged by your views and the views of those like you being our government's policy, but to anyone who has any doubts about the whole system I declare you dont have the right to foist this con on the rest of society, (and one day this realisation will or may dawn on policy makers).
 
Regardless of what anyone says, you'll come up with something negative.
If you don't want opinions, why ask?
Regardless of what I might say, no one wishes to state they are unconcerned there are no statutory rights for decent parents/dads/mums/grandparents in the UK.
If I cant get anyone to respond to something like this, why should I be criticised for raising it as an issue quite often, (even whilst I acknowledge that in democratic countries people not caring about the lack of statutory parental rights, means there will never be any enacted)?
 
I wouldn't choose to criticise Julia Tugenhat for her study, (if that was your meaning?), not least because children and young people are being "studied" in every report produced by those Cafcass officials, (calling themselves "reporters" no less!).
I would agree though, that shoving the children, ("and their views"), forward is a process with very negative consequences in most cases I'd argue. As I've said previously on this thread, doing so denies them, (and their fathers/non-resident parents), the right to a private life. You shouldn't as an "outsider" be able to ask a child "Do you love your parent", but they do this without any compunction.
I actually don't know who this woman is. What I do know is that had I been asked questions as a child about what I was experiencing, I would not have been able to tell them the truth. Either out of fear or I had yet to process that truth.
 
I actually don't know who this woman is. What I do know is that had I been asked questions as a child about what I was experiencing, I would not have been able to tell them the truth. Either out of fear or I had yet to process that truth.
Yes, Julia Tugendhat certainly came across that situation, very much so, and as you say it took a lot of building up trust in order to learn anything of the true feelings of those children separated from their dads/non-resident parents, (most crucial of all was those children knowing Julia would never allow the child's mother/resident parent, know if the child said anything that might be seen as disloyal by their child).

One of the most poignant findings Julia Tugendhat came up with was those teenage boys she managed to speak to (mainly boys as I remember it was), who said, "I'm not bothered about my dad", but when she dug deeper she discovered just how "bothered" they really were, and all they were managing to do was put a brave face on things, (perhaps they were exhorted to "move on", whilst being told their dads didn't care about them).

https://www.amazon.com.br/What-Teenagers-About-Divorce-Step-families/dp/0747504768

Quote:
"In Britain the divorce rate continues to rise. There are one and a half million children living with a separated or divorced parent and over a million living in a stepfamily. The author interviewed 30 teenagers from different backgrounds and learned about their feelings and experiences. The book aims to be of interest to anyone involved in stepfamily life, including teachers, social workers and parents as well as young people from broken homes who may learn something helpful from the experiences of others."
 
@grahamg having a dad really does matter. No matter what someone may say at the time. I miss not having a dad and my enabler stepfather, while a provider, was never a dad in the true sense. I also miss that I didn't have grandparents or extended family. These relationships matter as children. My mother could not have cared less either.
 
You continue to refuse to answer whether you wish to deny any parent statutory rights.

You continue to assert faith in a system you say tries to suit the needs of the child.
Yesterday was a day out for us, otherwise I would have responded then.

I believe parents have rights & from your posts you were given those rights.

I Googled this.
do parents have statutory rights in the UK

There are a lot of sites, this is just one.
https://www.gov.uk/parental-rights-responsibilities

Not liking the outcome is what you post about. Me as a reader of your posts I have no way of knowing if you followed your responsibilities. What I do know from your posts is that your daughter in her mid 30's now doesn't want you in her life. The why of that could only be answered by your daughter. And that isn't going to happen.

I think by your posts that you are a good person. Yes I posted I think the system is in place for the child. You haven't posted about how you carried out your responsibilities on a daily basis.
 


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