Russia/Ukraine, and The U.S./Europe

Don M.

SF VIP
Location
central Missouri
The longer this mess drags on, and the more support the NATO nations give to Ukraine, the greater the risk of the situation escalating. As more sophisticated armament is given to Ukraine, and Russian objectives fail, Putin may be pushed to his limits....which would be catastrophic to the entire world, Europe may well be in for some serious "energy" issues this Winter, with their Russian fuel supplies cut off. The next few months may be worth watching...closely.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/russia-warns-us-off-sending-145319107.html
 

It’s sad that the nations of the world haven’t joined forces to put an end to this madness.

I just don’t understand it.
Somebody needs to assassinate Putin. That's the only way this situation ends without massive carnage and perhaps the detonation of nuclear weapons. Or it could just drag on and on for years until Putin gets sick or something happens where they just call it quits.
 

There is a lot of money to be made in war. Think of the profit factor selling all those war machines. A lot of people are laughing all the way to the bank and then smiling and grinning all the way back.
 
The longer this mess drags on, and the more support the NATO nations give to Ukraine, the greater the risk of the situation escalating. As more sophisticated armament is given to Ukraine, and Russian objectives fail, Putin may be pushed to his limits....which would be catastrophic to the entire world, Europe may well be in for some serious "energy" issues this Winter, with their Russian fuel supplies cut off. The next few months may be worth watching...closely.
Granted it is an extremely dangerous situation, but would pulling the rug out from under Ukraine really improve the situation? Putin is probably just getting started, or at least he hopes he is. If we, and our allies, wimp out and allow him to succeed in Ukraine, what then? He will likely move on in what may very well become a campaign to restore the old Soviet Union. If he invades a NATO nation we would be compelled to step in with our own troops. Not good, and far more dangerous than shipping weapons to Ukraine. We would risk direct combat with Russia. And to make things worse, China is watching. A display of weakness on our part in Ukraine would almost certainly trigger an invasion of Taiwan, and then what? As for the "energy" issues, perhaps we should reconsider Canada's pipeline, and beef up our carbon production with the intention of aiding our European allies?
 
Appeasement of Putin should not be a consideration just to have peace, otherwise he'll go after the Baltic states and Poland. A bully has to be stopped in his tracks. More body bags will have to be sent back to Russia before the Russian public and generals have had enough.
 
We're doing the right thing by investing in and promoting renewable energy sources. Europe is doing the same thing, probably to an even greater extent. Our dependency on oil and authoritarian oil regimes is coming to an end. Hopefully, the people of Russia will bring down Putin somehow to end their suffering.
 
The longer this mess drags on, and the more support the NATO nations give to Ukraine, the greater the risk of the situation escalating. As more sophisticated armament is given to Ukraine, and Russian objectives fail, Putin may be pushed to his limits....which would be catastrophic to the entire world, Europe may well be in for some serious "energy" issues this Winter, with their Russian fuel supplies cut off. The next few months may be worth watching...closely.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/russia-warns-us-off-sending-145319107.html
there's no May about it..we're already in deep doo doo with energy issues.. costs have gone sky high.. for example, a Butcher shop who has been paying £2,000 for electricity until recently , has been told his bill will now be £30,000...per month... I am not kidding...

Pubs who are paying 10k per week, have no been billed 50k for a month

Domestically our utilities ( gas and Electric) have risen 54% this year, and will rise again in October.. making most people have the choice of eat or heat... and an average energy bill of £4,000 .. we're also informed, that shops will have to open reduced hours due to the high cost of energy.. pubs and restaurants will only be able to serve food 3 hours of the day instead of the current 12 -14... and to top it all domestically we're likely to get electricity cuts in our homes all during winter.. as well as Street lighting, and even Traffic lights on quieter roads being completely turned off..

It's going to be Hell..or I should say more Hell than it already is..
 
Last edited:
Prominent economist and Columbia University professor, Jeffrey Sachs, was interviewed on PBS a few nights ago by Amy Goodman on her Democracy Now show and he repeated much of the below denoucing neocons that dominate both our political parties and media.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Sachs

https://www.jeffsachs.org/newspaper-articles/m6rb2a5tskpcxzesjk8hhzf96zh7w7


Ukraine Is the Latest Neocon Disaster | Jeffrey D. Sachs | June 27, 2022
snippets:


The war in Ukraine is the culmination of a 30-year project of the American neoconservative movement. The B Administration is packed with the same neocons who championed the US wars of choice in Serbia (1999), Afghanistan (2001), Iraq (2003), Syria (2011), Libya (2011), and who did so much to provoke Russia’s invasion of Ukraine. The neocon track record is one of unmitigated disaster, yet B has staffed his team with neocons. As a result, B is steering Ukraine, the US, and the European Union towards yet another geopolitical debacle. If Europe has any insight, it will separate itself from these US foreign policy debacles.

The neocon movement emerged in the 1970s around a group of public intellectuals, several of whom were influenced by University of Chicago political scientist Leo Strauss and Yale University classicist Donald Kagan...

The main message of the neocons is that the US must predominate in military power in every region of the world, and must confront rising regional powers that could someday challenge US global or regional dominance, most importantly Russia and China. For this purpose, US military force should be pre-positioned in hundreds of military bases around the world and the US should be prepared to lead wars of choice as necessary. The United Nations is to be used by the US only when useful for US purposes...

The neocons championed NATO enlargement to Ukraine even before that became official US policy under GW B, Jr. in 2008. They viewed Ukraine’s NATO membership as key to US regional and global dominance...

The neocon outlook is based on an overriding false premise: that the US military, financial, technological, and economic superiority enables it to dictate terms in all regions of the world. It is a position of both remarkable hubris and remarkable disdain of evidence...

Instead of risking this disaster, the real solution is to end the neocon fantasies of the past 30 years and for Ukraine and Russia to return to the negotiating table, with NATO committing to end its commitment to the eastward enlargement to Ukraine and Georgia in return for a viable peace that respects and protects Ukraine’s sovereignty and territorial integrity.
 
Last edited:
Last few days there have been several Putin denouncing media stories apparently about speeches he recently gave. But with little info about what Putin actually said beyond usual cherry picking. Today dug up on Google News some actual media that actually addresses what that was about and not surprisingly if was more about Neocon agendas. The first link while having an obvious level of bias and which one won't find on US media, does give readers a glimpse of how the world is being divided up into two factions, just what our arrogant neocon think tanks did not want.

Vladimir Putin’s Speech and Plenary Session Dialogue At The Eastern Economic Forum

https://www.russia-briefing.com/new...-dialogue-at-the-eastern-economic-forum.html/
snippet:

The striking feature overall was the solidarity that appears to be developing behind Russia in what is increasingly being perceived not purely being a conflict with Ukraine, although discussions were held about this, but the wider view that there is a larger global struggle going on between the West, with its desire to impose a unipolar global society, and the developing world, which is actively resisting this.


Putin accuses U.S. of fueling conflicts in Ukraine, Taiwan to maintain global influence

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/...n-ukraine-taiwan-to-maintain-global-influence
snippet:


MOSCOW (AP) — Russian President Vladimir Putin accused the United States of trying to encourage extended hostilities in Ukraine as part of what he described Tuesday as Washington’s alleged efforts to maintain its global hegemony. Addressing a security conference attended by military officials from Africa, Asia and Latin America, Putin reaffirmed his long-held claim that he sent troops into Ukraine in response to Washington turning the country into an “anti-Russia” bulwark. “They need conflicts to retain their hegemony,” Putin charged. “That’s why they have turned the Ukrainian people into cannon fodder. The situation in Ukraine shows that the United States is trying to drag the conflict out, and it acts in exactly the same way trying to fuel conflicts in Asia, Africa and Latin America.”...

The Russian leader claimed that “Western globalist elites” were trying “to shift the blame for their own failures to Russia and China,” adding that “no matter how hard the beneficiaries of the current globalist model try to cling to it, it’s doomed.” “The era of the unipolar world order is nearing its end,” he added.
 
Putin said months ago that by the U.S. sending money to Ukraine, he has considered us as an intervention into the war. He had told Germany and other European countries that their utility bills will increase dramatically. We keep sending money to Ukraine, but no one ever tells us how the money is being spent or where it is being spent. Zelenskiy has already shutdown three opposing TV stations as he attempts to begin a Totalitarian type government. I would also imagine that Zelenskiy has filled his pockets.

I think it's very possible that the U.S. people are being duped to some degree. I think this war isn't just about saving Ukraine, I think it's more about taking down Russia. Think about what Ukraine has to offer the U.S. We have no foreign interest in that country (Ukraine). So even if Russia took down Ukraine, we would not gain or lose anything. We should only be fighting wars where we have something to lose. Ukraine is not part of NATO, although we tend to treat them as if hey were. For the most part, many of the major sectors of Ukraine have been blown to bits. Who do you think is going to pay to rebuild?

If the U.S. should get militarily involved with Ukraine, I could just see the crap hitting the fan in a hurry. No country would be safe. Can you imagine seeing F/A18's flying over Moscow? And that would only be the start. Because after the war begins, both countries would bring out the big guns. And do you really want to go to war with Russia and give them homefield advantage? If the U.S. and Russia would go at, you could bet everything you own that the CCP would quickly invade and takeover Taiwan. There is a lot at stake here.

Ukraine and NATO
 
The longer this mess drags on, and the more support the NATO nations give to Ukraine, the greater the risk of the situation escalating. As more sophisticated armament is given to Ukraine, and Russian objectives fail, Putin may be pushed to his limits....which would be catastrophic to the entire world, Europe may well be in for some serious "energy" issues this Winter, with their Russian fuel supplies cut off. The next few months may be worth watching...closely.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/russia-warns-us-off-sending-145319107.html
Yep, all governments including dictatorships need at least some support from their people. Putin's only way to get it right now is to convince his people that Russia is fighting a righteous war, fighting Nazis or something. Making people forget or accept their economic and political situation. So losing for him feels like a personal disaster, even the end of his rule...

Not the only country in that kind of situation. I suspect a lot of China's aggression is driven by the same kind of thing, now that their economy is slowing focusing on Taiwan and the like is a similar thing. And the Chinese are not about to join with the West against Russia, they see Russia as an ally, at least temporarily. Making the world safe for democracy is the last thing people like this want, it would be their demise...

Just my non-expert way of looking at the world.
 
Putin said months ago that by the U.S. sending money to Ukraine, he has considered us as an intervention into the war. He had told Germany and other European countries that their utility bills will increase dramatically. We keep sending money to Ukraine, but no one ever tells us how the money is being spent or where it is being spent. Zelenskiy has already shutdown three opposing TV stations as he attempts to begin a Totalitarian type government. I would also imagine that Zelenskiy has filled his pockets.

I think it's very possible that the U.S. people are being duped to some degree. I think this war isn't just about saving Ukraine, I think it's more about taking down Russia. Think about what Ukraine has to offer the U.S. We have no foreign interest in that country (Ukraine). So even if Russia took down Ukraine, we would not gain or lose anything. We should only be fighting wars where we have something to lose. Ukraine is not part of NATO, although we tend to treat them as if hey were. For the most part, many of the major sectors of Ukraine have been blown to bits. Who do you think is going to pay to rebuild?

If the U.S. should get militarily involved with Ukraine, I could just see the crap hitting the fan in a hurry. No country would be safe. Can you imagine seeing F/A18's flying over Moscow? And that would only be the start. Because after the war begins, both countries would bring out the big guns. And do you really want to go to war with Russia and give them homefield advantage? If the U.S. and Russia would go at, you could bet everything you own that the CCP would quickly invade and takeover Taiwan. There is a lot at stake here.

Ukraine and NATO
I rather think that the million + Ukrainian Canadians might disagree with your perspective on this matter, as do I. Other Canadians feel very strongly also. Certainly we disagree with your assessment of President Zelenskyy’s leadership goals and his alleged corruption. Canada stands with Ukraine. I live on an island which contains

multiple military bases, and a nuclear base. Multiple ports also. Should nuclear war come, we will be crispy critters. As will many other areas of the land of the maple leaf. But, we still stand with Ukraine. Appeasement will not work. Putin will not stop at Ukraine, and the genocide of Ukrainians is a war crime. We will not be complicit. As it is, no one is truly safe anymore.
 
I rather think that the million + Ukrainian Canadians might disagree with your perspective on this matter, as do I. Other Canadians feel very strongly also. Certainly we disagree with your assessment of President Zelenskyy’s leadership goals and his alleged corruption. Canada stands with Ukraine. I live on an island which contains

multiple military bases, and a nuclear base. Multiple ports also. Should nuclear war come, we will be crispy critters. As will many other areas of the land of the maple leaf. But, we still stand with Ukraine. Appeasement will not work. Putin will not stop at Ukraine, and the genocide of Ukrainians is a war crime. We will not be complicit. As it is, no one is truly safe anymore.
You're entitled to your opinion, but you will learn that this man isn't all that he seems to be.
 
Putin is in a lot of trouble. He thought he could conquer the Ukrainians in a matter of weeks and as the Ukrainians put up a determined and intelligent resistance he found himself short of weapons and supplies. He has had to resort to buying back Soviet era missiles from North Korea.

He put a General in charge who is known for his success in the Middle East using brutal and ruthless tactics against civilians. What worked there has not worked in Ukraine.

Although the Russians occupied a lot of territory in the east and south, they failed to take the Capital (Kiev) and the now find themselves being pushed back towards the Ukraine/Russian border. Many men have surrendered, so many the Ukrainians don't quite know how to confine them all.

Analysis: Russia caught out by Ukraine’s double offensive​

Ukrainian forces continue to retake territory in the Kharkiv region as Russians reportedly abandon key cities of Kupyansk and Izyum.

By Alex Gatopoulos
Published On 10 Sep 202210 Sep 2022

Kyiv, Ukraine – Ukrainian forces have retaken more than 2,500 square kilometres (965 square miles) of territory in the northeast of the country in just three days, according to the Institute for the Study of War, a think-tank. Dozens of settlements have been recaptured from Russian troops, who have begun a headlong retreat to the relative safety of Luhansk province.

Kupyansk, a railway junction and important logistics hub for the Russians, has been retaken by Ukrainian forces despite heavy Russian reinforcements in the area. Russian artillery and armour had been rushed in to Kupyansk and the city of Izyum, while Russian airborne units had been flown in to bolster the beleaguered Russian defence. Ukraine’s seizure of Kupyansk means that Russian units to the north will have more difficulty resupplying, as the Russian military is largely reliant on railways for keeping its forces fed, fuelled and armed.

Russian media have reported that Russian forces abandoned Izyum and are retreating after the capture of Kupyansk made the defence of the city untenable.

The importance of the south​

Ukrainian military planners have been adept at keeping Russia guessing where the main thrust of the offensive would focus – either the southern Kherson front or in the Northeast around Kharkiv.

An attack in the south appeared to be a likely choice as Kherson is strategically important to both sides. Control of the city for Russia means it controls the harbour there, protects the freshwater canal feeding Russian-occupied Crimea and could potentially serve as a jumping-off point for any future drive towards Odesa.

For Ukraine, it is equally important to retake Kherson, a gateway to the south. It was one of the first cities to be seized by Russia in the early days of its full-scale invasion in February and its recapture would be a big morale boost for Ukrainians. It would also allow Ukrainian forces to cross the Dnieper River and potentially drive east, cutting off the canal supplying Crimea. The canal was a strategic Russian war aim as it provided 85 percent of Crimea’s fresh water and has been blocked by Ukraine since Russia illegally annexed the peninsula in 2014.

A successful Ukrainian drive east would also make Russia’s occupation of the Zaporizhzhia Nuclear Power Plant increasingly untenable as Russian forces in and around the nearby city of Enerhodar would be likely cut off and stranded in the river bend.

Ukraine has deftly pinned down some 20,000 Russian soldiers against the Dnieper River, pinching them off from Russian units within the city of Kherson itself. The Russian forces there were brought from the east to reinforce Russia’s defences of the Kherson pocket, but they have been isolated, largely cut off from resupply, and effectively contained.

Southern feint, northern blow​

It appears that Russia has been caught out, believing that the south was going to be Ukraine’s main focus of operations.

Despite the strategic value of the south, it seems as if the Ukrainian attacks there were a feint by military planners, with the main thrust of Ukraine’s offensive coming in the northeast, where its lightning strike has seen Russian resistance collapse.

According to Russian media, the city of Izyum has been abandoned, and a general Russian retreat is under way, not only from the city but also from the region.

To capitalise on its gains, Ukrainian forces are pressuring Lyman, another strategically valuable railway junction town, in an effort to keep up the momentum of the offensive and capitalise on the sense of panic felt within Russian ranks. There is open talk of defeat in the region on Russian telegram channels.

It remains to be seen how much steam remains in Ukraine’s northeastern advance. Russian forces will likely pull back to a defensive line, where they hope to check Ukraine’s offensive and put a halt to Russia’s retreat. It is likely that Ukraine’s strategic focus will return to the south at some stage as there is too much at stake in this vital sector.

For now, it is clear that Russia has suffered a significant military defeat in the northeast and is pulling back its forces, with its defences crumbling in the face of a Ukrainian military onslaught.

Analysis: Russia caught out by Ukraine’s double offensive | Russia-Ukraine war News | Al Jazeera
 
Last edited:
No doubt the neocons relish US involvement in this. If they had it there way, our soldiers would be over there right now waiting for the signal to invade Russia. But I don't think our involvement is neocon driven. If there truly are neocons in the Biden administration, they need to be purged. They have shown that that their methods have achieved little or nothing, and have done more harm than good. If anyone can name the ones Biden keeps around, they should be identified, so that the public is aware of who they are.
 
Somebody needs to assassinate Putin. That's the only way this situation ends without massive carnage and perhaps the detonation of nuclear weapons. Or it could just drag on and on for years until Putin gets sick or something happens where they just call it quits.
Perhaps, but, you have to be careful what you wish for. Russian politics is an ever changing field. You could end up with one of the old guard KGB Russian generals who would be an even great nuclear threat.
 
Regardless of who wins this war, Putin will continue to be a threat until he is out of power. He has invaded and seized territory in two neighboring countries and rattles his nuclear sword at others. There are at lleast five other countries he thinks should been wholly or partly united with Russia - Lithuania, Latvias, Estonia, Macedonia, and Finland.
 
Appeasement of Putin should not be a consideration just to have peace, otherwise he'll go after the Baltic states and Poland. A bully has to be stopped in his tracks. More body bags will have to be sent back to Russia before the Russian public and generals have had enough.
Sadly this is only partially true. Russian soldiers with various life altering injuries Will also be sent home. It’s very sad.
 


Back
Top