Protests In Iran Spread, Putting Government In Quandary

[amwassil]

Here in Vancouver, and judging from casual observation, I see very few women wearing Muslim garb, so I presume most Muslim women wear western clothing. I work at Walmart with a large number of Iranians - who call themselves Persians, not Iranians - and of the couple of dozen women I know are Muslim only a couple wear a head covering and/or face covering now that the covid mask mandate is done.

Turbans are not a Muslim thing, they're Sikh. I work with several men from India who wear turbans.

 

[OneEyedDiva]

First let me say that Muslim men are taught to respect their wives and include them in important decisions for their families. Whenever possible he helps around the house and stays involved in rearing the children. It's not all left on the wife. Muslims follow the teachings in the Holy Quran and the hadith of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). There are many Islamic sites to refer to for information about Muslim marriages and the Islamic way of life. The link to the site this is from is below:

What does Islam say about wives and husbands?​

"And among His signs is that He created for you mates from among yourselves, that you may live in tranquility with them; and He has brought between you love and mercy. Truly, in this are signs for those who reflect." (Qur'an 30:21)

"Marriage is based on mutual love and respect. The Islamic marriage is a sacred contract between a willing woman and willing man. There can be no coercion, and each party is free to include its own terms. The bride keeps her family name and her marriage gift from the groom. A Muslim marriage is completed with public festivities reflecting culture and customs."

"Husbands and wives are protectors of each other. They are equal partners and best friends, remaining faithful to one another."

"The husband provides, maintains, protects and is responsible for the family. He fulfills his duties with consultation and kindness. While the wife is not required to share her wealth and earnings, she may help her husband. Both spouses work together in the home - cooking and cleaning - and in raising good children."

"If couples are unable to live with one another peacefully, amicable divorce is permitted as a last resort. Mothers are given priority in the custody of children."

"Prophet Muhammad said: "Treat women well and be kind to them; they are your partners and committed helpers."

Share 'What does Islam say about wives and husbands?' with your friends​

https://www.discoverislam.com/what-does-islam-say-about-wives-and-husbands

Muslim men are also taught that they must please their wives in the conjugal bed and not leave until she gives her permission (eg: lets him know she's satisfied...no wham, bam, thank you ma'am). We were also taught that men who brag about their sexual activities with their wives are the lowest form of male.

Clearly, men who treat their wives other than with kindness are not following Islamic teachings as they should. Just like with Christian men who verbally or physically abuse their wives, or worse yet as we've seen all too often...murder them. Christianity didn't teach that they should do that but they do it anyway. @Pecos @Don M. @SeniorBen Some women choose to wear Hijab and are not forced to at all. I read an article about that a couple of years ago. I met a Muslim couple who owned a boutique in town. They were Arabs I think (or Turkish..forgot which). The wife didn't cover her hair at all and the husband was fine with that. I didn't cover my hair for about two years after I accepted Islam (my husband didn't try to force me to do it) and once I started, I didn't wear traditional Hijab.

​

 

[OneEyedDiva]

I believe, from what I've heard and been told, that it is from the interpretation of the Koran, not the actual demands of it. @OneEyedDiva will be able to give an indepth view of this if she wants to. She has spoken eloquently before on this topic.

Thank you for saying that Pepper I added my reply but for some reason was unable to tag you in it.

 

[SeniorBen]

Nothing wrong with wearing hijabs or burqas, so long as the wearer does it by choice, not coercion. I think a lot of Muslim women want to wear them, and they should feel free to.

Just like a lot of Jews wear a yarmulke. I once went to a Jewish wedding and was asked to wear one, did not feel oppressed in the least.

Those are two diametrically apposed examples.

Many Muslim women came to America to escape oppression by the theocracy that imposed mandates that women are required to wear the headscarves. They're required to be subservient to men, and opportunities in education and many other realms of society are severely limited. Why on earth would they want to continue practicing a religion in which its adherents treat them in such an inhumane way? It doesn't make any sense, but religion in general doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Jews, on the other hand, were persecuted and murdered because of their heritage and religion. Not only were they not allowed to practice their customs, they weren't allowed to exist because of something over which they had no control. They fled to the U.S. to escape persecution. Most Jews don't wear yarmulkes on a daily basis. They only wear them for special occasions and on Shabbat, more out of tradition than a sense of piousness. It's tradition. And there's nothing wrong with tradition when no one gets hurt. It's a celebration of life. L'chaim! To life!

 

[Lavinia]

It's the same reason you don't go to the store naked.
But I understand your comment, it's like every woman was assumed to be a wonton slut that needs to be covered up, so she won't cause men to rape her. It's not a real pretty picture of womanhood.

This is the opinion that most Muslim men have of white women, and it isn't really surprising when you consider how so many women are dressed.

 

[Alligatorob]

Those are two diametrically apposed examples.

I admit there are some differences, to my knowledge no one has been forced to wear the yarmulke. And when asked to wear one at a wedding the only consequence of refusing might have been not being allowed in, or maybe not, I took it and wore it. They even let me keep it! However I think there are Muslim women who prefer to wear the traditional dress, for reasons similar to those who want to wear the yarmulke.

Muslims migrate to the US for a variety of reasons, escaping religious persecution is just one of many. One French Muslim woman ever sought asylum here so she could be allowed to wear her traditional dress. The article Muslim Immigrants ( https://cis.org/Report/Muslim-Immigrants-United-States ) in the United States does a good job of discussing all this, beginning with the first, possibly as early as 1501. Here are the reasons identified for more recent migration (cut and pasted from the article):

(1) Refuge. Tragic events in predominantly Muslim countries often lead directly to the emergence of a Muslim ethnic community in the United States; Afghanistan and Iraq offer particularly stark examples. The fact that Muslim countries are disproportionately dominated by dictators means that tyranny, persecution, poverty, violent regime changes, civil strife, and wars have driven some of the most talented and wealthy from Muslim countries in the Middle East, South Asia, and beyond.

Some examples by category:

• Ethnic persecution. Expulsion of Asians from Uganda, followed by smaller numbers from Tanzania and Kenya, led to some 6,000 Muslims arriving in North America. Saddam Husayn's extermination campaign against the Kurds led to mass exoduses in 1989, 1991, and 1996.
• Religious persecution. Hindu-Muslim clashes in India cause a steady stream of Muslims to seek safety in America, even as members of the country's elite leave due to job discrimination. There was even one case of a French Muslim seeking asylum in the United States.
• Islamism. Members of the Ahmadi sect fled Pakistan when their faith was deemed not Islamic in 1974, as did many other Muslims running from the Islamist (or Islamic fundamentalist) dictatorship of General Zia ul-Haq. The Iranian revolution of 1979 targeted the sort of person most likely to seek refuge in the United States. Persecuted by Islamists, members of anti-Islamist movements such as the Republican Brothers of the Sudan and the Association of Islamic Charitable Projects of Lebanon, immigrated to the United States.
• Anti-Islamism. Conversely, Islamists flee repression from countries such as Algeria, Egypt, Lebanon, and India by moving to the land of the infidel, where they (ironically) find the freedom to express their views.
• Civil wars. Waves of immigrants arrived as a consequence of the endless civil war in Sudan, the 1971 Pakistani civil war, the 1975-90 Lebanese civil war, the 1990s anarchy in Somalia and the former Yugoslavia.
• International wars. The Israeli victories in 1948-49 and 1967 caused waves of emigration. The Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in December 1979 and the decade of warfare that followed prompted the educated to flee. The Iraqi invasion of Kuwait in 1990 brought not only Kuwaiti citizens and residents, but also 10,000 Iraqis, one-third of them soldiers (and their family members) who surrendered to the Allied troops and could not be sent back without imperiling their lives. With the Muslim world dominated by dictators, it seems unlikely that this flow will end or even lessen any time soon.

(2) Education. By the 1990s, U.S. colleges and universities attracted over half a million foreign students, many of whom chose to remain in the United States, where facilities for their profession are superior, political freedoms wider, and economic rewards greater. Among medical students, more than 75 percent — and perhaps as many as 90 percent — end up staying in the United States. Female students are also particularly inclined to stay; they appreciate the independence, self-sufficiency, and opportunities for assertiveness the United States offers them and know that to return means having to conform to restrictive ways, demure behavior, and family dictates.

(3) Islamist Ambitions. Although the numbers in this category are smaller than refugees or students (and indeed, some Islamists also fit in those two capacities), Islamists have particular importance, for they harbor religious and political ambitions that are in a potential collision course with the majority population.

 

[amwassil]

Mahsa Amini

 

[Alligatorob]

Even when some Muslims from the Mideast move to the U.S. they bring their culture or traditions with them.

Hasn't that been true for every group of people who moved here over the past 500 years? Would not have our green beer and St Patrick's day parades without it.

 

[amwassil]

Sorry @OneEyedDiva but your romantic view of Islam is nonsense. In reality women in Islamic coutries are chattel of their husbands. You can quote Quranic verses all you like and that reality won't change. Islam is a pathological idealogy of bigotry, intolerance and hatred. We see it going on all the time in the world's Muslim countries. You can quote the Quran all you like, but I believe what I see.

 

[SeniorBen]

Sorry @OneEyedDiva but your romantic view of Islam is nonsense. In reality women in Islamic coutries are chattel of their husbands. You can quote Quranic verses all you like and that reality won't change. Islam is a pathological idealogy of bigotry, intolerance and hatred. We see it going on all the time in the world's Muslim countries. You can quote the Quran all you like, but I believe what I see.

In a related story:

Arizona can enforce near-total abortion ban, judge rules
Ruling brings back law blocked for nearly 50 years, and means clinics offering the procedure would face criminal charges
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/sep/23/arizona-abortion-ban-clinics-roe-v-wade

 

[Alligatorob]

Sorry @OneEyedDiva but your romantic view of Islam is nonsense.

I find nothing @OneEyedDiva says to be nonsense, her views are always well informed and logical. On this issue she is Muslim, and would know better than most of us here. I may not always agree, but I always respect.

@amwassil I think you are confusing religion with culture. Many of the countries where the Muslim religion is practiced are, by our standards, pretty backward in their treatment of people. Not, I believe, the result of their religion!

 

[amwassil]

In a related story:

Correct me if I missed your point, but I suspect by 'related' you mean treating women as chattel. If so I disagree. Human life is precious, whether it be the life of a Muslim woman or the life of a new human embryo/fetus. Brutalizing either is wrong. I agree that women have the right to choose pregnancy or not. But the timing of the choice is paramount. Once the choice involves another innocent human life, it is no longer simply "My body, my choice".

 

[Tabby Ann]

I don't understand why so many Muslim women in the U.S., who fled oppressive religious regimes, voluntarily and enthusiastically wear hijabs here. It seems like a contradiction of beliefs.

I wonder this myself. All those Muslim refugees fleeing Muslim countries bring their oppressive dogma with them and want to practice it here. Islam is more of a political system like communism, socialism, capitalism, etc. than a religion. Most of the world's religions are self-improvement courses, but Islam's Quran contains oppressive laws for civilian government and harsh punishments Muslims are instructed to administer to each other for breaking these laws.

 

[amwassil]

I find nothing @OneEyedDiva to be nonsense, her views are well informed and logical. On this issue she is Muslim, and would know better than most of us here. I may not always agree, but I always respect.

@amwassil I think you are confusing religion with culture. Many of the countries where the Muslim religion is practiced are, by our standards, pretty backward in their treatment of people. Not, I believe, the result of their religion!

If you examine the history of Islam from the beginning of the 7th century you will quickly reach the same conclusion I did. Bigoted, intolerant, hateful and violent. What they do is more relevant than what they say they believe. Muhammad was an angry and bitter man who inflicted much violence and intolerance upon the world. To pretend otherwise is to deny reality.

 

[Alligatorob]

If you examine the history of Islam from the beginning of the 7th century you will quickly reach the same conclusion I did. Bigoted, intolerant and hateful. What they do is more relevant than what they say they believe.

Couldn't something similar be said about Christianity. Hard to explain things like the crusades and inquisition otherwise...

 

[amwassil]

Couldn't something similar be said about Christianity. Hard to explain things like the crusades and inquisition otherwise...

Actually, no. The Crusades were a response to the depredations of Islam in the Christian lands of the Middle East. The Eastern Roman Empire had essentially collapsed by 1000 AD and could no longer provide any protection to it's former territories on the eastern Mediterranean littoral. Muslims tried to impose Islam by the same methods used by Stalin and Mao to impose Communism - unmitigated violence. The Crusades were a response.

Yes, the Spanish Inquisition was an example of intolerance. But you have to realize that Christian Spain had only recently liberated itself from the bigotry and opprobrium of Islam - forced upon them since the 8th century! Nearly 7 hundred years of religious and political tyranny exploded into retribution by the Christian people of Spain. Did it go too far - probably. But on the other hand they were attempting to root out an insidious evil that had permeated their society for hundreds of years.

 

[Shalimar]

Actually, no. The Crusades were a response to the depredations of Islam in the Christian lands of the Middle East. The Eastern Roman Empire had essentially collapsed by 1000 AD and could no longer provide any protection to it's former territories on the eastern Mediterranean littoral. Muslims tried to impose Islam by the same methods used by Stalin and Mao to impose Communism - unmitigated violence. The Crusades were a response.

Yes, the Spanish Inquisition was an example of intolerance. But you have to realize that Christian Spain had only recently liberated itself from the bigotry and opprobrium of Islam - forced upon them since the 8th century! Nearly 7 hundred years of religious and political tyranny exploded into retribution by the Christian people of Spain. Did it go too far - probably. But on the other hand they were attempting to root out an insidious evil that had permeated their society for hundreds of years.

The Crusades were “holy wars” perpetuated by the Pope’s desire to expand the Holy Roman Empire, and the reclamation of the Holy Land. There is ample historical evidence available

detailing all manner of atrocities committed by these Crusaders. Of course, it was politically expedient to demonise Islam, just as it is today. As for the Spanish Inquisition, billed as a means

to combat heresy, it actually served to consolidate power in the monarchy. (The marriage of Ferdinand 2 and Isabella 1 unified the Spanish kingdom.) Thousands of Spanish Protestants, Jews, and Muslims were forcibly converted, expelled from Spain, or tortured, killed.

 

[amwassil]

@Shalimar
Wow! Historical ignorance of first order. Have you ever been in combat? Don't talk to me about 'atrocities' committed in combat.

There is no need to 'demonize' Islam, it has done that all by itself since the 7th century. Whitewashing Islam continues unabated.

 

[Shalimar]

@Shalimar
Wow! Historical ignorance of first order. Have you ever been in combat? Don't talk to me about 'atrocities' committed in combat.

There is no need to 'demonize' Islam, it has done that all by itself since the 7th century. Whitewashing Islam continues unabated.

Considering I studied military history while I was in University, and my professor was a decorated vet, it is unlikely I was misinformed. No, I have not been in combat, however, I come from a military family. I am also a trauma therapist dealing primarily with combat vets suffering from

PTSD. Their horror stories are not limited to any one group of people. Also, historical accuracy is not whitewashing. I think further conversation on this subject is likely fruitless. Islamaphobia is not subject to rational thought. Peace be upon you, and have a nice day.

 

[Sunny]

Could it be that what is keeping many Muslim women in their hijabs, etc. has nothing to do with being beaten, but because they have been taught all their lives that good, moral Muslim women dress that way, that it is a badge of honor, and that Allah might be displeased with them if they did otherwise?

Here's a parallel: Orthodox Jewish women cover their hair with wigs or hats, scarves, etc. They dress "modestly" in unstylish outfits, mostly featuring long sleeves and longish skirts. They are not doing so because their husbands are beating them. They are doing it to fit in with the tribe.

This applies to various Christian sects as well. It's done out of fear of being disloyal, not fitting in, daring to live differently than their parents did. There are more ways of controlling other people than just beating them.

 

[amwassil]

I know and work with quite a few Muslims who are very decent people. I don't think any are anxious to kill and die for Islam. I suspect @Shalimar and @OneEyedDiva are also very decent people. However, they're all 'over here' not 'over there'. Why? If Tehran is such a wonderful place why aren't they living there? I don't agree with rosy descriptions of Islam nor assertions that Islam is no worse than Christianity. I don't close my eyes to the inhumanity displayed all around - including Islamic inhumanity, and the barbaric treatment of the beautiful young woman whose photo I posted above.

It is not islamophobic to observe that since its inception in 732 AD, Islam first spread through out the territories of the declining Roman Empire by killing and pillaging, not by persuasion. And that once the Middle East, North Africa and Spain were conquered - not converted - Muslims spread the ideology eastwards and southwards by the same methods. As for European Christians, look up Tours, France, on a map. Then say a sincere thank you to Charles Martel and men who fought with him to stop the imposition of Islamic tyranny onto the whole of Europe.

I agree that Christianity is not the house of saints on earth. But ask yourself, would you rather live in Rome or Tehran?

 

[Shalimar]

I certainly would not have liked to live in Ancient Rome. I would likely have been fed to the lions. Present day Iran is not indicative of the whole Islamic world, as for conquerors, Christian ones are no better. For example, in Canada and America, we did an excellent job of exterminating much of

the Indigenous population. Other religions factor in as well. See the Zionists re Palestine. See Hitler. See Stalin, although he was not religious. He is reputed to have been responsible for at least 20 million deaths, See the British Empire, the conquistadores, the Portuguese Empire, the French Empire, the list goes on and on. All religions and none, the atrocities were committed, and still are. See the Rohingya.

 

[amwassil]

OK. Go live in any Muslim country in the world - your choice. Get back to us in 5 years. Most of us will still be here anxiously awaiting your report. Thanks.

 

[Alligatorob]

Go live in any Muslim country in the world - your choice. Get back to us in 5 years.

I have a cousin who has lived in Java longer than that, he raves about it. I spent a little time in Indonesia (never got to Java), and felt safe. There are places I visited in Sumatra I could live, Jakarta was interesting, but too crowded for me. I never felt uncomfortably because of religion. I found most Indonesians to be very kind people, more friendly than in most US cities.

I spent time in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and some of the Gulf States. Never felt oppressed by religion, but in Saudi the treatment of many non-Saudi Muslim workers and even a lot of Saudis outside of the royal family as well as most all Muslim women made me very uncomfortable. Non-Muslims were treated much better. Places like Kuwait, Bahrain, and the UAE were comfortable both culturally and from a religious point of view. Would not want to live anywhere there however, too damned hot and dry.

 

[HoneyNut]

I think all the 'patriarchal' religions are sucky for women, and I think they are used to exploit, injure, kill whoever their particular powerful people consider to be the bad guy (like those factions in Syria that are both Moslem but always killing each other for being the wrong version or something).