Why do living things need to kill and eat other living things to keep on living?

HoneyNut said:
I thought our teeth indicated we should be a plant eating type of animal? And that being able to use fire and cook food made meat a more accessible food stuff for us? Though maybe not as significant as us learning agriculture and being able to grow and mill grain.

I'm happy with being a meat eating species but I would be much happier about it if we insisted on humane treatment and slaughter of the animals. I haven't gotten over what I learned during my visit to Boston, that MA had a referendum years ago where the citizens voted to not allow the sale of animal products that didn't have minimum humane care for the animals, and that even though there was a 5 year period for producers to adjust to the law, there was still an egg shortage because the egg producers had not followed the rule that the cage had to be big enough for the chicken to stand up.

From our own chickens I know they have feelings and personalities and I think it is awful that increasing profits by forcing a creature to live in a cage where it cannot even stand up is a bigger priority than humane treatment. I've switched now to buying cage-free type eggs, but all I can find for those are the brown shelled eggs and I would prefer the white shells. I don't understand why the cage-free are all brown, unless there is a type of brown egg layer that is a lot better getting along in a group situation? We had a couple Leghorns that layed white shelled eggs and they seemed calm enough to me, though they were my favorite so maybe they have bigger personalities.
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Other than the color of the shell (that IS breed specific) there is no difference in the eggs. You can even get green, blue and pink eggs from some breeds.
 

Alligatorob said:
... most of us will end up feeding a good population of worms, bacteria, and fertilizing plants. And there are the many tiny creatures that live on and around us feeding on our bodies and waste all the time. Not a vegan in the lot. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_microbiome

Also the occasional alligator, shark, bear and other large predators still feeds on us.
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Some of us but not many in the US. With cremation and being buried in an air tight steel box in a concrete vault... not many worms and flies make it in there...
 
HoneyNut said:
I thought our teeth indicated we should be a plant eating type of animal? And that being able to use fire and cook food made meat a more accessible food stuff for us? Though maybe not as significant as us learning agriculture and being able to grow and mill grain.

I'm happy with being a meat eating species but I would be much happier about it if we insisted on humane treatment and slaughter of the animals. I haven't gotten over what I learned during my visit to Boston, that MA had a referendum years ago where the citizens voted to not allow the sale of animal products that didn't have minimum humane care for the animals, and that even though there was a 5 year period for producers to adjust to the law, there was still an egg shortage because the egg producers had not followed the rule that the cage had to be big enough for the chicken to stand up.

From our own chickens I know they have feelings and personalities and I think it is awful that increasing profits by forcing a creature to live in a cage where it cannot even stand up is a bigger priority than humane treatment. I've switched now to buying cage-free type eggs, but all I can find for those are the brown shelled eggs and I would prefer the white shells. I don't understand why the cage-free are all brown, unless there is a type of brown egg layer that is a lot better getting along in a group situation? We had a couple Leghorns that layed white shelled eggs and they seemed calm enough to me, though they were my favorite so maybe they have bigger personalities.
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Totally agree with you about the need for more humane production. The inhumane processes are relatively new phenomenon in human history (about a century perhaps a decade or two more) and were developed by people who put profit above all else (including product quality in some cases) and they had huge negative impact on family farms/ranches, not to mention small rural grocery stores.
 
Why do living things need to tell others what to eat to live?

I'd prefer a person say "I eat" (gives list) I'm more than willing to try new things. But when they spout "I'm a vegetarian, vegan (or other style) and you're scum for eating meat"

Please don't inhale, because I've already tuned you out.

(P)eople
(E)ating
(T)asty
(A)nimals
 
rkunsaw said:
So Humans have thought and reasoned that eating animals as part of our diet is the natural way
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Most of us have, or rationalized it that way.
MikeyDude said:
Some of us but not many in the US. With cremation and being buried in an air tight steel box in a concrete vault... not many worms and flies make it in there...
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It will just take longer that way, but geologically it will happen. And all that CO2 that we generate when burned will get taken up by and nourish plants. Can't avoid the food chain, just alter or delay it.
 
HoneyNut said:
I thought our teeth indicated we should be a plant eating type of animal? And that being able to use fire and cook food made meat a more accessible food stuff for us? Though maybe not as significant as us learning agriculture and being able to grow and mill grain.

I'm happy with being a meat eating species but I would be much happier about it if we insisted on humane treatment and slaughter of the animals. I haven't gotten over what I learned during my visit to Boston, that MA had a referendum years ago where the citizens voted to not allow the sale of animal products that didn't have minimum humane care for the animals, and that even though there was a 5 year period for producers to adjust to the law, there was still an egg shortage because the egg producers had not followed the rule that the cage had to be big enough for the chicken to stand up.

From our own chickens I know they have feelings and personalities and I think it is awful that increasing profits by forcing a creature to live in a cage where it cannot even stand up is a bigger priority than humane treatment. I've switched now to buying cage-free type eggs, but all I can find for those are the brown shelled eggs and I would prefer the white shells. I don't understand why the cage-free are all brown, unless there is a type of brown egg layer that is a lot better getting along in a group situation? We had a couple Leghorns that layed white shelled eggs and they seemed calm enough to me, though they were my favorite so maybe they have bigger personalities.
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I'm by no means a vegan, but I'd like to see factory farms outlawed and animals raised for their meat treated humanely. There is so much needless suffering in the world. Animals can be raised in decent conditions and killed without being tortured.

I also think that hunting should be outlawed, but as long as animals aren't killed for "sport," at least they're free while they're alive. Now that I think about it, that's actually much better than them spending their lives suffering in a factory farm. I'm not a hunter, though, and will never kill an animal intentionally (unless they get in my house, in which case, all bets are off).
 
Maybe killing and eating other animals is easier that
planting and growing things and that is how it began,
Bears have got it sorted, kill if you have to, or eat grass
in the meantime.

Mike.
 
SeniorBen said:
I'm by no means a vegan, but I'd like to see factory farms outlawed and animals raised for their meat treated humanely. There is so much needless suffering in the world. Animals can be raised in decent conditions and killed without being tortured.
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Sounds good, but that would require a lot of regulation, and would increase the cost of meat. Don't think people are that interested.
SeniorBen said:
I also think that hunting should be outlawed, but as long as animals aren't killed for "sport," at least they're free while they're alive.
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I used to hunt, deer, elk, antelope, alligators and a few birds. Not sure if I will again. I never killed anything I didn't eat (or try to in the case of antelope). I think a lot of hunting serves a useful purpose.

Many animal populations need some kind of control now that the top predators are gone from most of North America. Deer are a good example, without hunting deer populations would get out of hand resulting in more road kill, disease, and starvation. Alligator hunting takes out the largest and most dangerous gators. Hunters also fund and support funding for a lot of habitat protection.
 
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SeniorBen said:
I also think that hunting should be outlawed, but as long as animals aren't killed for "sport," at least they're free while they're alive.
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I know you don't want to watch animals die of slow starvation That's why hunting is controlled, permitted and regulated.

Right now, there's a lot of CWD (Chronic Wasting Disease) affecting herds of deer. That's a huge issue which could decimate quite a large part of hunting. It affects deer, elk, moose and reindeer (Watch out Rudolph!)

You never want to see a deer in the throes of CWD. Below is a video showing the difference. The best thing is to euthanize the animal.

https://youtube.com/shorts/LEDc_c8hgRs?feature=share
 
Pepper said:
No, cannibalism was never natural. It is done for human religious type reasoning; or desperation like the Donner Party. Other animals are not cannibals. The same goes for human sacrifice, a totally made up human thing for human rationale.
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I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure crocodiles are not above cannibalism.

Just checked. They don't mind eating their young

The most recent studies have shown that 7% of the youngest crocodiles become food for adults, but it is believed that this percentage can vary depending on the population you look at and the conditions where they live.

Do Crocodiles Eat Their Young? It is Common? Why do They do It? (wwwildnature.com)
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That said, cannibalism is very unnatural in our species.
 
Lara said:
hmmm:unsure: Makes sense, but what about Sharks?
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The sense of smell is what sharks use to locate prey. Under the water is often a very murky environment.

Eyes at the front of the head allow the hunter to judge distance, essential when lunging at prey. For the prey, eyes on the side of the head allow them to spot predators without constantly turning the neck.

The other animals that have eyes that are forward focussed are arboreal. When you leap from branch to branch it is essential to be able to judge the distance accurately.

Tiger (predator, carnivore)
https://www.naturalworldsafaris.com/~/media/images/wildlife/bengal-tiger/nws-st-bengal-tiger-2.jpg

Giraffe (prey, herbivore)
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-OzgmFTIC...093fa444a781011029fe26ad88fb524644-s6-c30.jpg

Chimpanzee (arboreal, omnivore)
https://th.bing.com/th/id/R.7e2d280...9yl4EEMtP07XbXE19oYaUJI=&risl=&pid=ImgRaw&r=0
 
Farrah Nuff said:
If you live and enjoy a vegetarian lifestyle, great but this thread isn’t
directed towards you. Creatures eating other creatures is a system
that works, no doubt about that but it does seem a bit harsh at times,
when I’ve nothing better to do than to consider idle things. What do
you think? Big fish eats the little fish. Lions eat lambs. People eat
everything. Was this a purposeful plan or does it even bear considering?
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Long time ago things like that I decided are covered by the old saw:

"It's the way of the world."
 
Warrigal said:
I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure crocodiles are not above cannibalism.

Just checked. They don't mind eating their young



That said, cannibalism is very unnatural in our species.
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That may be, but my wife tells me that I get very aggressive and animated if I miss a meal, and she feels sure that if I miss two consecutive meals I'd quickly resort to cannibalism.
 
JimBob1952 said:
From a "natural" standpoint humans are omnivores. Being vegan or vegetarian is what's unnatural. Having said that I completely understand the motivations (ecological, ethical and dietary) for being vegan or vegetarian. I applaud those who are. I just don't have the discipline or moral stamina to stick to that regime.

Plus an occasional cheeseburger brings me great joy.
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Yes - - I lost complete control this afternoon and ate a cheeseburger. The cheese didn't bother me but the burger left me with a dab of guilt. 😥
 
DaveA said:
Yes - - I lost complete control this afternoon and ate a cheeseburger. The cheese didn't bother me but the burger left me with a dab of guilt. 😥
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Hah!

Here's an open question re guilt...

If you deal with young adults, college-educated, very many are soaked in guilt. It's over privilege that they've been told they have, over the vague terms "injustice" and "equality".

And when you get right down to it, they had neither a hand in creating these problems that they perceive, nor can they fix them--they cannot exert sufficient control over the situations to change *anything*.

So all they have available to them is angst and finger-pointing.

So I'm of the 60s, went thru some of the same revelations and enlightenments as most of you, I'll bet, and by the time I got to my late-30s/early 40s, I figured that I'd go nuts trying to make sense of the world as it was being presented to me. I would feel truly crummy about all this stuff I was supposed to fix, as the emergent Boomers optimistically thought they could pull off.

So I came to the realization that I'd only recognize "internal guilt"--this is my own personal recognition of having not performed according to my own standards, when I could have done otherwise. I would not accept "external guilt"--people telling me what I *should* feel bad about.

So in the case of the cheeseburger, if I had made a pact with myself to lose weight, e.g., I'd feel guilt, but not over the demise of the cow whose flesh has provided the patty I'm wolfing. If you made a pact with yourself to not contribute to the demand for these patties, I can understand that you'd feel guilt--I would, too, if I had made such a pact. But I haven't...

Anyway, this accepting of only internal guilt worked like a charm. After that, most stuff I encountered in life made perfect sense.

How about you?
 
I'm more of a believer that it's better to light a candle than it is to curse the darkness.

It's not guilt that gnaws at me. It is anger that I have had to overcome.
 

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