What happens when one wants a divorce and the other doesn't?

horseless carriage said:
Deliberately, I avoided the word dragon, but you're not wrong. Actually she came across more of a harridan, but that would be ungentlemanly of me to say so................no it wouldn't, she was definitely a harridan and more besides.......
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I think people like that are deeply unhappy and project their feelings onto others. To you, her husband might have seemed a mild-mannered gentleman. To her, he might have seemed a boring old fart. She was probably frustrated at his lack of liveliness.
 
JaniceM said:
I checked, and all states now have "no-fault divorce." So if one spouse wants it, he/she gets it.
I've heard there's some type of mediation required if there are children of the marriage, but not sure if it's widespread.
Other than that, only 3 states currently recognize Covenant marriage as valid. A divorce can only occur if there's a legitimate reason for it, such as abuse, adultery, abandonment.
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That is what happens nowadays certainly.

Our attitudes as a society in relation to those who have no qualms about breaking up another's marriage, and whether anyone should bother to try to invest emotional energy in such an unstable relationship, plus what protections are in place for those who do, are the issues I've tried to raise here.
You could add into the discussion, (without sounding too negative I hope), "why bother to love your children if society, and our legal systems, wont assist those who do"? (That's of course my hobby horse, so please forgive me mentioning it again).
 
Lavinia said:
Surely no-one with any self-respect would want to stay in a marriage, knowing the other person considers it to be over?
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Right. Although probably extremely difficult, and I do not speak from experience, I can't imagine begging my husband to stay, in fact I'd have kicked him out. I'd rather be a widow than have a husband who didn't want me.
 
Young couples these days seem to think a trial "living together" first helps prevent divorce but studies show that those couples are actually more likely to divorce. I was always against living together because the set-up seemed to favor the man's interests. I always loved dating, I would spend hours getting beautiful for him and he would take me out for dinner or dancing. Lovely. Start living together and it's a matter of weeks before he's in the recliner watching sports and she's doing laundry.

I was the one who wanted the divorce in my first marriage. He was devastated. Give-up the unpaid housekeeper who doesn't even need to be talked to? Who would hand him an extra pay check every week? I got nothing in the divorce and it was hard living on minimum wage, but it was less lonely.

As for those mild-mannered men who are married to dragons. I always remind myself that he chose her and he proposed to her for some reason.
 
Della said:
Young couples these days seem to think a trial "living together" first helps prevent divorce but studies show that those couples are actually more likely to divorce..
(Break)
As for those mild-mannered men who are married to dragons. I always remind myself that he chose her and he proposed to her for some reason.
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You raise good points here.
The mild mannered intelligent man married to the dragon I was thinking of, (and had such a lot to put up with obviously), must have decided she was the one for him at some stage, but they did ultimately divorce.
Whether to live together before marriage, or avoid doing this I'd suggest involves many different aspects. Easier divorce laws, and protections introduced for those who lived together instead of marrying, means the two situations have more similarities than they used to have.
 
Lavinia said:
Surely no-one with any self-respect would want to stay in a marriage, knowing the other person considers it to be over?
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The lady I keep trying to describe would probably argue she did have self respect, and she simply loved her husband so much she behaved as she did, (she discovered his affair after it had been going on for a number of years, and he swore he lived her and didn't want a divorce at that time, but then took up the affair again, so there were a number of stages and confusion in their relationship).
 
grahamg said:
The lady I keep trying to describe would probably argue she did have self respect, and she simply loved her husband so much she behaved as she did, (she discovered his affair after it had been going on for a number of years, and he swore he lived her and didn't want a divorce at that time, but then took up the affair again, so there were a number of stages and confusion in their relationship).
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@grahamg "The lady I keep trying to describe..." but, it is a scenario and once you have set that out for discussion, readers will have their own take on the situation otherwise the comments you get will amount to "Yes, we agree with you" which, honestly, would be disappointing wouldn't it?

For what it is worth, where you state "she probably would argue that she did have self respect, and she simply loved her husband so much ..."

I hope she wouldn't! I hope that when the dust settled and time had made the situation less raw that she would have said something more along the lines of "I should have packed his bags the moment I discovered what an ****hole he was"!

It takes courage to maintain self-respect and to allow yourself to be consistently betrayed and to stay because you "simply love" your cheating partner is not an act of courage but an act of emotional weakness (or, if you prefer, vulnerability). I would suggest that the lady concerned is more likely to have stayed because she was protecting herself from a situation she found too painful to accept, instead she convinced herself of a more acceptable (although unlikely) reality - i.e. her partner was remorseful and would henceforth be faithful.
 
Trish said:
@grahamg "The lady I keep trying to describe..." but, it is a scenario and once you have set that out for discussion, readers will have their own take on the situation otherwise the comments you get will amount to "Yes, we agree with you" which, honestly, would be disappointing wouldn't it?

For what it is worth, where you state "she probably would argue that she did have self respect, and she simply loved her husband so much ..."

I hope she wouldn't! I hope that when the dust settled and time had made the situation less raw that she would have said something more along the lines of "I should have packed his bags the moment I discovered what an ****hole he was"!

It takes courage to maintain self-respect and to allow yourself to be consistently betrayed and to stay because you "simply love" your cheating partner is not an act of courage but an act of emotional weakness (or, if you prefer, vulnerability). I would suggest that the lady concerned is more likely to have stayed because she was protecting herself from a situation she found too painful to accept, instead she convinced herself of a more acceptable (although unlikely) reality - i.e. her partner was remorseful and would henceforth be faithful.
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I agree with you.

You must both give and demand personal respect. This is, to me, the bedrock of any human relationship.
 
grahamg said:
The lady I keep trying to describe would probably argue she did have self respect, and she simply loved her husband so much she behaved as she did, (she discovered his affair after it had been going on for a number of years, and he swore he lived her and didn't want a divorce at that time, but then took up the affair again, so there were a number of stages and confusion in their relationship).
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It's perfectly possible to love more than one person at the same time. I suppose if you love someone enough, you might agree to continue with the marriage but allow the other person to carry on with their 'affair'.
 
Lavinia said:
It's perfectly possible to love more than one person at the same time. I suppose if you love someone enough, you might agree to continue with the marriage but allow the other person to carry on with their 'affair'.
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You know, though...

If indeed someone loves more than one person, is this love equal or it is relative? And if relative (unequal) what effect does this have on all of the relationships involved?
 
I didn’t live with my first two husbands before marriage and if I had I wouldn’t have married them. I lived with my 3rd husband for 6 years before marriage. It was a wonderful relationship.

However it’s no guarantee of success and in 2011 I found out he was cheating. We worked it out and I trusted him but it was misplaced because he would cheat again in a year. Because I didn’t want to be divorced 3xs I stayed much longer than I should have.

In December 2020 I accidentally found out he was at it again and divorced him. I also loved him more than my other husbands. My first husband cheated once and even though we had a child I left immediately. Life is complicated.
 
Trish said:
@grahamg "The lady I keep trying to describe..." but, it is a scenario and once you have set that out for discussion, readers will have their own take on the situation otherwise the comments you get will amount to "Yes, we agree with you" which, honestly, would be disappointing wouldn't it?
For what it is worth, where you state "she probably would argue that she did have self respect, and she simply loved her husband so much ..."
I hope she wouldn't! I hope that when the dust settled and time had made the situation less raw that she would have said something more along the lines of "I should have packed his bags the moment I discovered what an ****hole he was"!

It takes courage to maintain self-respect and to allow yourself to be consistently betrayed and to stay because you "simply love" your cheating partner is not an act of courage but an act of emotional weakness (or, if you prefer, vulnerability). I would suggest that the lady concerned is more likely to have stayed because she was protecting herself from a situation she found too painful to accept, instead she convinced herself of a more acceptable (although unlikely) reality - i.e. her partner was remorseful and would henceforth be faithful.
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I am telling you the truth about this very good woman, (I accept its a bit awkward in terms of a discussion for the reasons you laid out, and of course only I really know what I witnessed and what she said).
Although you may wish to think she turned her view of her husband/ex-husband, I think its fair to say whenever she did choose to say negative things about him of the kind you mentioned, she didn't really sound like she meant it, nor stuck to it the next time they interacted, (making arrangements over him having contact with their child etc.).
 
grahamg said:
I am telling you the truth about this very good woman, (I accept its a bit awkward in terms of a discussion for the reasons you laid out, and of course only I really know what I witnessed and what she said).
Although you may wish to think she turned her view of her husband/ex-husband, I think its fair to say whenever she did choose to say negative things about him of the kind you mentioned, she didn't really sound like she meant it, nor stuck to it the next time they interacted, (making arrangements over him having contact with their child etc.).
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I don't doubt you are telling the truth @grahamg but, if the gist is that you know the lady, you have discussed these things with her so it's not up for debate then, all we can say is "yes, you're right @grahamg" :) (no offence intended (y)).
 
Marriage is a contract. We do not all understand this when we enter upon it. Society, the church, our parents and peers pudh us toward this often from the first date. An old fashioned match maker might be a better option to find a life long partner. All the things we skirt around on this forum including our personal politics bear on whether that marriage will not only be successful but happy too. My marriages were quite miserable and not always at the fault of the other party. We never talked about the contract before the event. I made poor personal choices based on unrealistic expectations. So I divorced (ran). Now in a 22 year relationship with all the elements of a traditional marriage. We do not need a contract to stay and be happy.
 
Trish said:
I don't doubt you are telling the truth @grahamg but, if the gist is that you know the lady, you have discussed these things with her so it's not up for debate then, all we can say is "yes, you're right @grahamg" :) (no offence intended (y)).
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All I contend is that it isn't wrong for people to feel as she did, (it may be completely foolish, no argument there!).
 
Muskrat said:
Marriage is a contract. We do not all understand this when we enter upon it. Society, the church, our parents and peers pudh us toward this often from the first date. An old fashioned match maker might be a better option to find a life long partner. All the things we skirt around on this forum including our personal politics bear on whether that marriage will not only be successful but happy too. My marriages were quite miserable and not always at the fault of the other party. We never talked about the contract before the event. I made poor personal choices based on unrealistic expectations. So I divorced (ran). Now in a 22 year relationship with all the elements of a traditional marriage. We do not need a contract to stay and be happy.
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Anyone who has sustained a relationship of the kind of length you've managed has done well in my view, (and I accept your comments about how difficult your previous relationships were, as mine was all of that and maybe more!).
 
I personally know several couples married for 30-50; years that sadly just totally dislike each other yet stay together with fear of being alone or for financial reasons with no experience of being single.
My ex and I divorced many years ago when our children were in their teens. It was a very traumatic time for me personally, but looking back it was the best for us both. We remain friends to this day and her new husband included. They are like family to me and we treasure the fact we forgave one another and let go and moved forward. We can lovingly respectfully spend holidays with our kids now adults and our grandkids. Funny I see her as like a sister vs my ex wife.
People either grow together or apart. After 20 years we discovered we were very different. But I will never regret that we let go and moved forward. I'm 71 years old now and at the moment single. Yeah it's a little challenging and at times wish it had a partner to share my life with. That would be wonderful, But I'd rather be alone than being miserable with someone I didn't love.
I still looking to be in love with someone. I'm optimistic that she's out there somewhere and we'll find one another. How nice to be with a best friend and someone I can bear my heart and soul to and know they will embrace me and I equally embrace her. Just talking for hours on end and laughing sharing. Optimistic.
 
Muskrat said:
Marriage is a contract. We do not all understand this when we enter upon it. Society, the church, our parents and peers pudh us toward this often from the first date. An old fashioned match maker might be a better option to find a life long partner. All the things we skirt around on this forum including our personal politics bear on whether that marriage will not only be successful but happy too. My marriages were quite miserable and not always at the fault of the other party. We never talked about the contract before the event. I made poor personal choices based on unrealistic expectations. So I divorced (ran). Now in a 22 year relationship with all the elements of a traditional marriage. We do not need a contract to stay and be happy.
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Yes, a true marriage is a contract of the heart. No papers needed.
 
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