People are Leaving their Churches in Droves Today

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There are some strong arguments against the existence of any supernatural beings including gods.
I try to distinguish between those that are strong and those that are loud or simply repeated over and over. This also applies to the arguments for a God as well. I have yet to hear any argument strong enough to settle the matter either way.

And also some excellent arguments for the existence of a powerful force in nature whether supernatural or vastly more advanced.

obviously there are powerful forces afoot in the cosmos, and Pantheists even call those forces of physics God, but as yet, supernatural forces remain a matter of opinion.
 

Consciousness without body related ego is far different. Those who have had their hearts stop for a long period of time recall being part of this godly consciousness that is unconditional love , meaning there is no fear.
Our egos create fear. I’m not trying to convince anyone of my beliefs though. I personally would baste in that unconditional love forever and a day.
I can't imagine having consciousness without body-related ego. It sounds wonderful but I just don't think it could ever happen since millions of years of evolution put us in these bodies; like it or not--which I do not; ugh I hate my body!--that body (and in my case, all the darn painful, embarassing memories having to do with my body) is stuck to us as long as we exist. If you think, as some religions do and as I was told in Protestant Christian Sunday School, that Heaven will be wonderful because all our bad memories will be taken away, I disagree: our memories are what makes us us; you take too many of someone's memories away, they're not themself anymore. (Which is of course why Alzheimers is so sad; severe enough cases, what makes that person a person is essentially gone.)
 
I am continuously amazed that pious church-goers who, at a Bible study, don't know where the books of the Bible are located. When the pastor says turn to a particular book, there a lot of page flipping and confused looks. While I'm no expert, I know whether a particular book is in the Old or New Testament and can usually come within a book or 2 of finding it. The most confusing in order to me are the OT minor prophets and the NT letters of Paul.
 

I am continuously amazed that pious church-goers who, at a Bible study, don't know where the books of the Bible are located. When the pastor says turn to a particular book, there a lot of page flipping and confused looks. While I'm no expert, I know whether a particular book is in the Old or New Testament and can usually come within a book or 2 of finding it. The most confusing in order to me are the OT minor prophets and the NT letters of Paul.
Most of my fellow Christians would consider this to be almost blasphemous but, except for the Pentateuch, I would find it hard to find a certain book in the O.T. because I hardly ever went there! There are no doubt inspired passages (Psalm 23, Isaiah 53) but they were written down (or passed on orally) by fallible men!

I turned my back on the O.T. because the God I found in there was all too human with His cruelty and regrets about creating man! Does away with His Omniscience, doesn't it? I love some of the Psalms but that's about it!

Back in 325 A.D. the council of Nicea should have decided, along with Marcion, to go with some of the books in the yet to be compiled New Testament only! The God found there is Love and forgiveness and acceptance!

As to the letters of Paul, remember the time they were written in!

One example that many can't swallow nowadays (and rightly so) is his admonishment for women to keep silent in the churches!

Remember this is the first century. Until the advent of Christianity, the sexes were strictly segregated, so just having worshippers sit together in one room, with women on one side and men on the other, was scandalous enough! So, please don't add to this outrage!

Folks who believe in an inerrant Bible (literally dictated by God) will be terribly upset with me, but I stand by my views! I even helped two congregations make up their minds when it came to choosing their next pastor. Before I explained this passage to them they had been very nervous about even considering a woman!
 
Most of my fellow Christians would consider this to be almost blasphemous but, except for the Pentateuch, I would find it hard to find a certain book in the O.T. because I hardly ever went there! There are no doubt inspired passages (Psalm 23, Isaiah 53) but they were written down (or passed on orally) by fallible men!
Please don't omit the book of Daniel

In it are the prophesies covering thousands of years (Daniel 2)
Nebuchadnezzars dream
around 600 BC to now

A fascinating study
One that stablishes faith (not blind faith)

We are now the feet of clay and iron

Beats conjecture, speculation and theory
 
I try to distinguish between those that are strong and those that are loud or simply repeated over and over. This also applies to the arguments for a God as well. I have yet to hear any argument strong enough to settle the matter either way.

Never will happen either as that is the way the masters obviously want it.

obviously there are powerful forces afoot in the cosmos, and Pantheists even call those forces of physics God, but as yet, supernatural forces remain a matter of opinion.

Yeah that is why I relate the Christian God is arguably from a race of Ultimate Intelligent Entity, UIEs instead of "god" because I need to distinguish that from the the usual supernatural any level of imaginable magic, aka omnipotence, omniscience, omnipresence god level spouted after the Middle Ages by religious philosophers while not being anywhere in the Bible beyond a few exaggerated terms termed "all powerful" that can mean much less. From that denominations have devised all manner of attractive ways to describe what Heaven is like as well as a long list of other ceremonial practices, ethnocentric dogma, as though God is still whispering in their ears, haha. That noted, I do believe and can argue some of the NT was HS inspired, specifically the Gospel of John.
 
Most of us are discussing "religion" as Christianity. But that is only one religion. And that does bring up a problem. People believed in all kinds of gods and practices. The Mayans ripped out the beating hearts of victims to appease their gods. They even sacrificed their own children. In giving your own child up to a god, it requires belief in that god. So, if the Mayans, and other believers of past gods truly believed in their faith, how does that compare with those, who believe in Christianity? Which religion is the true religion, bearing in mind that both Mayans and Christians truly believe their religion is the one and only religion? The Egyptians had at least 800 gods, and there were millions over thousands of years, who believed in them. So, did they believe in false gods? Which religion is the true real religion, Mayan, Egyptian, Christian? They can't all be the one true religion, and that means two aren't. And once one religion is not true, the same can be applied to every religion- that it is only the belief of its followers which makes a religion true. And with the thousands and thousands of gods and religions throughout history, it's difficult not to think they were all man made.
 
This is a topic that is very touchy with me. I have been United Methodist all my life. If you are a person that keeps up with what’s going on in churches, you know what changes the United Methodists have made over the past 2 years.

There have been some very huge changes made having to do with sexuality. I would rather have you read about the changes than me explain them to you at the risk of making mistakes and not me covering the changes the church is go through.

Methodist Church Changes
 
goes back even further than that heh ? - after Christs death - he had given firm instructions about the new christianity and its development then the Romans took over and converted it for their own ends and that's how the catholic church began and why so many churches today rather like The Church of Christ have gone back to simple worship of the words and NOT the obsessive veneration of Mary [nothing against her of course a beautiful ; holy and obedient mother of Christ ] don't get me started!!
 
This will give you an insight on how "orthodox" Christianity was established! My ancient ancestors the Visigoths believed in Arianism! Shows all the fighting that went on behind the scenes, and the influence of secular authority in connection with the new faith!

https://www.britannica.com/event/First-Council-of-Nicaea-325
yes seems a long detraction from christs teachings and how he left it will the disciples - who instantly were fighting against each other verbally and with Paul significantly - peter thought he was the boss but soon got sorted out!!
 
Most of my fellow Christians would consider this to be almost blasphemous but, except for the Pentateuch, I would find it hard to find a certain book in the O.T. because I hardly ever went there! There are no doubt inspired passages (Psalm 23, Isaiah 53) but they were written down (or passed on orally) by fallible men!

I turned my back on the O.T. because the God I found in there was all too human with His cruelty and regrets about creating man! Does away with His Omniscience, doesn't it? I love some of the Psalms but that's about it!

Back in 325 A.D. the council of Nicea should have decided, along with Marcion, to go with some of the books in the yet to be compiled New Testament only! The God found there is Love and forgiveness and acceptance!

As to the letters of Paul, remember the time they were written in!

One example that many can't swallow nowadays (and rightly so) is his admonishment for women to keep silent in the churches!

Remember this is the first century. Until the advent of Christianity, the sexes were strictly segregated, so just having worshippers sit together in one room, with women on one side and men on the other, was scandalous enough! So, please don't add to this outrage!

Folks who believe in an inerrant Bible (literally dictated by God) will be terribly upset with me, but I stand by my views! I even helped two congregations make up their minds when it came to choosing their next pastor. Before I explained this passage to them they had been very nervous about even considering a woman!

"…[M]any religious groups really don’t worship God, they worship the scriptures…Even though [one of] the commandment says, “You shall have no other God before me,” the Scripture worshippers put the writings ahead of God. Instead of interpreting God’s actions in nature, for example, they interpret nature in the light of the Scripture. Nature says the rock is billions of years old, but the book says different, so even though men wrote the book, and God made the rock and God gave us minds that have found ways to tell how old [the rock] is, [some] still choose to believe the Scripture."
~~from The Fresco by Sheri S. Tepper
 
I had 12 years of Catholic schooling, by nuns and priests. At age 8, I started questioning things that didn't make sense. I remember the nun talking about Moses and the plaques. One of the plaques was the all of the Egyptians horses, cows, chickens, goats- all their animals died from the length and breadth of all Egypt. After the last plaque, when the first borns died, Pharaoh let Moses' people go, but sent his calvary to annihilate them. I raised my little hand and asked "Where did Pharaoh get the horses for his calvary?" The nun couldn't answer that. By the time I was 13, I was a confirmed atheist.
I don't really think there is a decline in religion. I believe there was always a small fraction that truly believed, and more or less coerced their friends and family to attend services. You had to believe in God. Atheists were pariahs. Today, atheism is no big deal. There's no longer any social stigma in being atheistic, or whatever your interpretation of a deity. So, the people, who never truly believed, are leaving religion.

Good points, FuzzyBuddy. You have shown how the Bible is all a man-made transcript, with un-realistic stories, exaggerated by the story-tellers as they passed their mythology on down through the ages. The same is true about the Jesus story. Written 30 long years after Jesus was crucified, and revised many times by the Roman Church. Not one word was documented during the actual time of Jesus’s time on earth, except a small mention by a scribe and official military leader named Octavias Josephus.

Tomas Paine in his book, “The Age of Reason”, proved that the Jesus story made no common sense. A virgin birth, miraculous cures, walking on water, a resurrection. So un-realistic, and very mythical. Even, Paul had never even met Jesus, but continued to write claims that Jesus said this and that.

Organized religion is a man-made concept for control, power, and money. I think many people are waking up to this reality, and are just walking away for the same reason you did. God bless the nuns. They did try to indoctrinate us to believe all that religion, but somehow reason won.
 
"…[M]any religious groups really don’t worship God, they worship the scriptures…Even though [one of] the commandment says, “You shall have no other God before me,” the Scripture worshippers put the writings ahead of God. Instead of interpreting God’s actions in nature, for example, they interpret nature in the light of the Scripture. Nature says the rock is billions of years old, but the book says different, so even though men wrote the book, and God made the rock and God gave us minds that have found ways to tell how old [the rock] is, [some] still choose to believe the Scripture."
~~from The Fresco by Sheri S. Tepper

The interesting part of that commandment by God saying “I Am the Lord Thy God. Thou Shalt Not have any other gods before me.” is that the Roman Church went on to create a three-in-one god, and to this day they worship Jesus, the son of God, more so then God, our Creator. I just don’t know how they justify that?
 
I mean no disrespect but it seems you are not writing the book but rather having the members of Senior Forum write the book FOR you.
Many opinions here are misinformed, misguided, or ignorant of the truth of things.
Please be careful of what is published as many misconceptions given as fact may produce harmful effects.

I agree, and I’m not quoting anyone from this forum. Everyone has given great voice to this topic, and verified what I have already known. Pros and cons about the topic of why people are leaving religion, only backed up my thesis in my book.
 
As with other Christian religious threads, I strongly disagree with what some anti-religious members post but rarely bother to respond beyond briefly even though I could because there is usually little point in doing so beyond understanding how others feel about subjects. There are some strong arguments against the existence of any supernatural beings including gods. And also some excellent arguments for the existence of a powerful force in nature whether supernatural or vastly more advanced. Large libraries are filled with books on these subjects that a feeble web discussion can't adequately address.

Community web forum discussions are poor places for productive religious discussions. Some anti-religious members will repeatably cherry pick warring sections of the Bible as though it was actually written by God (instead of ancient ruler's scribes with an agenda), ancient Bible sections that don't conform to recent Western morality like modern law and gender issues. Or anti-science actions of some limited denomination (usually young Earth Baptists), or something immoral or unethical a prominent church goer was hypocritically caught doing, or rant about why didn't God do something about what some small minority of pedaphile pervert priests or preachers secretly did [not His responsibility.], or how in the name of the church some ruler then warred against innocent others as with the Crusades, or why doesn't a loving God help the poor, abused, and weak, why is there so much evil in God's world if he made it [He didn't.], or why didn't God save my little dog Alphie after I prayed, or how could <species name> have developed purely by evolution, or why doesn't God simply show himself so we can believe, and a long list of others that were written by men, but blamed on God [Because he never responds to direct Earth monkey questions.]. (Despite the inerrant inspired nonsense.) Religious authorities are of course very guilty of bringing many of these criticisms on themselves because of their own long history of manipulative agendas and creative statements claiming to be led by God [God is laughing at that.].

Of course apologetists have reasonable arguments for addressing or understanding the above. Anyone can now easily read about them with a mouse click. But on a web board, it it easy for members to repeat any of the above as though they are still open questions requiring additional debate. With the WWW there are enormous resources on the web for these subjects and I would suggest starting with the balanced views of Wikipedia that provides lots of links for deeper resources. Most of the time people just post the above to emotionally bait others into needless discussion because they know many just cannot resist being dragged into their cat turd flavored sandbox.

And yet, you enjoyed every minute of this topic. Just kidding. 🤗
 
You can probably find more human honesty in an online forum that you can in a seminar of religious scholars. Not the kind of honesty you like to hear, but if you are talking about why people are leaving religion, you've already met some of them right here, many indoctrinated in religious environments and families, who have broken the chains of religious thought, and gone on to experience the joys and sorrows of reality as fully functioning adults living in a world where we realize we have no ultimate control.
 

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