After all these years, what are your thoughts on the concept of marriage?

gruntlabor said:
Mutual ownership, yes! My husband never seemed to mind being owned. Married in 1959. Married for 62 years I think it was. We both believed we gave more than 50%. Respect is everything, romance is nothing.
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Sounds like an arrangement that obviously worked for you. I do wish you had experienced more romance though. IMO, I think it can be the pinnacle of all human emotions, but it takes the right chemistry to make it happen.
 

bobcat48 said:
Sounds like an arrangement that obviously worked for you. I do wish you had experienced more romance though. IMO, I think it can be the pinnacle of all human emotions, but it takes the right chemistry to make it happen.
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:) Oh, we experienced romance all right, no problem. For a while there I thought we were going to have a baseball team.
 
I am sure everybody here knows how I feel about marriage. Just want to say that sometimes you do put everything into the marriage and find out your spouse has a girlfriend set up in a fancy apartment and is taking her on trips, buying her jewelry and dinners out behind your back. So how can you overcome that? I should have learned my lesson........but did it two more times. 2nd one an alcoholic and 3rd (and last one) a narcissistic. I know, I had terrible taste in that species.
 

bobcat48 said:
Okay, that wasn't intended to be literal, but figuratively. In most societies, a marriage is considered a permanent social and legal contract and relationship between two people that is based on mutual rights and obligations among the spouses. When you pledge to forsake all others and stand by your chosen one till death do you part, it is understood that you are giving up certain freedoms in the vows you take. I didn't mean that they own you as one would a slave. It is more of a "belonging" type ownership. Hope that makes sense.
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I think those vows you mention are rare these days.
Most couples write their own vows and there is no "forsaking
alll others" and "till death do us part."

ps: going on what I know... men do not leave a woman they really love.
likewise a woman does not leave a man she really loves.
Vow or no vow
 
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I think it works well for most people. I have seen some great marriages. A few terrible ones. I thought it was working out for us until it didn’t. Sometimes you never know what secret things are going on in a spouses head. But, six years out, I know I am done with the marriage business. It just doesn’t suit.
 
EmptyCup said:
I think it works well for most people. I have seen some great marriages. A few terrible ones. I thought it was working out for us until it didn’t. Sometimes you never know what secret things are going on in a spouses head. But, six years out, I know I am done with the marriage business. It just doesn’t suit.
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yes same really for me.. thought it was all working fine.. it had it's bad parts but I was willing and had been overlooking them taking it as part of the ways of a marriage.....but as you say.. you never know what secrets are being held back..until you get hit square in the face with them..
 
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Jamala said:
I think those vows you mention are rare these days.
Most couples write their own vows and there is no "forsaking
alll others" and "till death do us part."

ps: going on what I know... men do not leave a woman they really love.
likewise a woman does not leave a man she really loves.
Vow or no vow
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I guess I'm not all that familiar with the parameters of marriage in the UK. Apparently there, married individuals can enjoy all the freedom, liberties, and privileges after marriage as they do when single, but it is not so here in the US, unless one has an open marriage.

As for the part about a person not leaving someone they love, it happens every day. In fact, the landscape is littered with broken marriages of people who dearly loved each other, but found they couldn't live with the other's drinking, or gambling, cheating, laziness, lying, or obsessions with any number of things. Those things don't stop you from loving them, it just means you have limitations on what you will tolerate.
 
bobcat48 said:
I guess I'm not all that familiar with the parameters of marriage in the UK. Apparently there, married individuals can enjoy all the freedom, liberties, and privileges after marriage as they do when single, but it is not so here in the US, unless one has an open marriage.

As for the part about a person not leaving someone they love, it happens every day. In fact, the landscape is littered with broken marriages of people who dearly loved each other, but found they couldn't live with the other's drinking, or gambling, cheating, laziness, lying, or obsessions with any number of things. Those things don't stop you from loving them, it just means you have limitations on what you will tolerate.
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Exactly that... absolutely spot on Bobcat...
 
bobcat48 said:
I guess I'm not all that familiar with the parameters of marriage in the UK. Apparently there, married individuals can enjoy all the freedom, liberties, and privileges after marriage as they do when single, but it is not so here in the US, unless one has an open marriage.

As for the part about a person not leaving someone they love, it happens every day. In fact, the landscape is littered with broken marriages of people who dearly loved each other, but found they couldn't live with the other's drinking, or gambling, cheating, laziness, lying, or obsessions with any number of things. Those things don't stop you from loving them, it just means you have limitations on what you will tolerate.
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The "parameters of marriage in the UK are pretty similar to those
in California or anywhere else in the US.

When you pledge to forsake all others and stand by your chosen one till death do you part, it is understood that you are giving up certain freedoms in the vows you take.” (bobcat)

Now you’re contradicting yourself.

If I may add...if one has to give up being oneself within a marriage...then
to many, that is no marriage.
Open marriages are greatly frowned upon by the way. Although I say
to each his/her own. If some couples need to go down that path it's
none of my business.
 
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bobcat48 said:
I think you're right. I do believe that trust is earned, which takes time to establish. Perhaps living together for a time is wise to discover if that person is someone you could trust your life to, before making any marriage commitment.
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I understand that studies show that cohabiting before marriage does not actually lessen the likelihood of divorce. I think this could be because before formal vows/commitments are made, people tend to be on their best behaviour because they feel less secure in the union.

Once the union is formalised the mask/veil is dropped revealing the full personality or character of one or both partners. The interpersonal dynamics change after marriage whether or not there has been cohabitation beforehand.
 
I have divorced 3 husbands. My first cheated so I left with our two year old son. I was married the second time for 22 years and we had 2 more kids. He was controlling and verbally abusive. I left when the youngest was 18. I was 44.

I decided the problem was that I didn’t live with the other two before marriage. I lived with my third husband for 6 years before marriage. I knew he was somewhat lazy but we got along well and had a lot of fun together. By the time we had been together for 13 years he had become a serial cheater and very, very lazy. I stayed another 9 years hoping that he would change because I didn’t want to be divorced a third time.

Finally he came home with 2 stds during the pandemic when we were supposed to be staying away from people and I had to admit to myself nothing was ever going to change. Luckily living in Nevada it took me less than a month to divorce him. Needless to say I am done with marriage.
 
Warrigal said:
I understand that studies show that cohabiting before marriage does not actually lessen the likelihood of divorce. I think this could be because before formal vows/commitments are made, people tend to be on their best behaviour because they feel less secure in the union.

Once the union is formalised the mask/veil is dropped revealing the full personality or character of one or both partners. The interpersonal dynamics change after marriage whether or not there has been cohabitation beforehand.
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I guess I would need to look at those studies to see if living together for longer periods before marriage built some degree of trust, that living together for shorter periods did not. I lived together with my wife for 6 years before we were married and it lasted 30 years till she died. I don't think we were hiding anything from each other after 6 years. But maybe that was just us.
 
Teacher Terry said:
I have divorced 3 husbands. My first cheated so I left with our two year old son. I was married the second time for 22 years and we had 2 more kids. He was controlling and verbally abusive. I left when the youngest was 18. I was 44.

I decided the problem was that I didn’t live with the other two before marriage. I lived with my third husband for 6 years before marriage. I knew he was somewhat lazy but we got along well and had a lot of fun together. By the time we had been together for 13 years he had become a serial cheater and very, very lazy. I stayed another 9 years hoping that he would change because I didn’t want to be divorced a third time.

Finally he came home with 2 stds during the pandemic when we were supposed to be staying away from people and I had to admit to myself nothing was ever going to change. Luckily living in Nevada it took me less than a month to divorce him. Needless to say I am done with marriage.
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It leads one to wonder if we are just blind to the things that were always there, or if people change into something that they were not beforehand. I dunno, maybe both.
 
bobcat48 said:
It leads one to wonder if we are just blind to the things that were always there, or if people change into something that they were not beforehand. I dunno, maybe both.
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I think when you date someone for a year which I did with my first 2 husbands you don’t really know them. With the last one I think it’s a combination of him changing for the worse and a combination of him being charming and probably an excellent liar.

I found out from my stepson after the divorce that he cheated on his first wife. So probably he was cheating all along and was good at it.
 
Marriage is for the government and lawyers.
Once half of your stuff becomes theirs, they change. I know, I know, there are exceptions, but why would someone want to go through all that?
I have been 'dating' the same woman for 12 years. Lasting longer than two prior marriages. We are true life companions. We agree that marriage is for other people.
 
I think marriage was invented for the protection of women and children. Women who were pregnant or raising babies couldn't go out and plough the fields at the same time and the few paying jobs available for women wouldn't hire pregnant women or let them bring their children to work. A woman who let a man have sex with her before the commitment of marriage risked having to turn to prostitution to feed herself and her child.

Men were willing to commit to marriage and doing the heavy work or earning the money in order to have a partner for sex and children. Property ownership, dowries and land inheritance were all part of it, too.

This worked well for the children, they had two parents in the home, each child had a same sex parent to emulate and learn from, if one parent tended to be too harsh or too lenient the other parent would balance that.

Physical desire for each other probably lessened over time, but they had other bigger things to worry about like not starving to death next winter.

Now women can have children and raise them without needing a man. They can put the children in day care and get a job, or the government will pay for their food and shelter through welfare programs. Men can have all the sex they want without having to marry the woman first. It's a whole different world. I don't know if it's better or worse for the adults, but I think it's definitely worse for the children.
 
Warrigal said:
I understand that studies show that cohabiting before marriage does not actually lessen the likelihood of divorce. I think this could be because before formal vows/commitments are made, people tend to be on their best behaviour because they feel less secure in the union.

Once the union is formalised the mask/veil is dropped revealing the full personality or character of one or both partners. The interpersonal dynamics change after marriage whether or not there has been cohabitation beforehand.
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DH and I cohabited for a year before our wedding date. Only a couple of months into cohabiting we decided to get married and started planning our wedding. From the moment we made that decision we were effectively married. Nothing changed afterwards. Whatever we were, the other knew.
bobcat48 said:
It leads one to wonder if we are just blind to the things that were always there, or if people change into something that they were not beforehand. I dunno, maybe both.
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Sometimes people grow apart, but what I've mostly observed is that people ignore warning signs before they get married, then find the behaviors intolerable afterwards.

Perfect example: A close relative had an early marriage and divorce, no children. About six years later she met a man, fell in love and they decided to get married. Fly in the ointment? His family was Roman Catholic and frowned on divorce. So they didn't tell the family, they went to a priest on the sly to get an annulment, and they got married - big wedding.

I begged her to not lie to the family - to come clean. They were nearly 30 years old - old enough to have had a past. Plus so many people knew of her divorce - it was sure to come out at some point. Nothing to be ashamed of. She fluffed off my advice.

Fast forward 10 years and two children. Marriage is falling apart. Why? "I can't believe what a liar he is! He never showed this side of himself when we were dating!"

My response was an honest one. "Sure he did. In fact, the two of you lied to his family for years."

"That was different - we had to lie."

I said, "If they'll do it with you, they'll do it to you."

His family eventually found out about her divorce and blamed the lies on her. Who couldn't have seen that one coming?

People whose eyes linger on every attractive man or woman who passes them on the street? Are they "shopping" or merely admiring? No way to know for sure, but it's a red flag.

People tell who they are, whether it's too many stories that start with, "My friends and I were partying and..." (substance abuse) or the sweet suggestion: "Can you put on something else? I want you to look especially nice today. The blue dress is particularly lovely." (controlling) or "I'm not leaving a tip for that lousy service" (abusive and cheap), or "How nice that you got the big promotion you were up for. Oh, let me tell you about the great donuts Fred brought into work today! (narcissistic - bring the attention back to themselves), or "Gee, I'd love to help you with that but darn it, I'm just so busy" (cross this person off your list when thinking about who you can count on when you need a hand). And so forth.

Like everyone else, I've been fooled many times over the years in all sorts of relationships, but looking back the warning signs were always there. Every. Single. Time.

I just fluffed them off as isolated incidents without connecting the dots.
 
Warrigal said:
I understand that studies show that cohabiting before marriage does not actually lessen the likelihood of divorce. I think this could be because before formal vows/commitments are made, people tend to be on their best behaviour because they feel less secure in the union.

Once the union is formalised the mask/veil is dropped revealing the full personality or character of one or both partners. The interpersonal dynamics change after marriage whether or not there has been cohabitation beforehand.
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+1 on both statements. I would suggest from my limited view that cohabitation before marriage actually increases the likelihood of divorce. After my 3rd divorce I chose to live apart from, and court for over 3 years, then proposed in a traditional manner. Just celebrated our 20th wedding anniversary this past may.
 
StarSong said:
DH and I cohabited for a year before our wedding date. Only a couple of months into cohabiting we decided to get married and started planning our wedding. From the moment we made that decision we were effectively married. Nothing changed afterwards. Whatever we were, the other knew.

Sometimes people grow apart, but what I've mostly observed is that people ignore warning signs before they get married, then find the behaviors intolerable afterwards.

Perfect example: A close relative had an early marriage and divorce, no children. About six years later she met a man, fell in love and they decided to get married. Fly in the ointment? His family was Roman Catholic and frowned on divorce. So they didn't tell the family, they went to a priest on the sly to get an annulment, and they got married - big wedding.

I begged her to not lie to the family - to come clean. They were nearly 30 years old - old enough to have had a past. Plus so many people knew of her divorce - it was sure to come out at some point. Nothing to be ashamed of. She fluffed off my advice.

Fast forward 10 years and two children. Marriage is falling apart. Why? "I can't believe what a liar he is! He never showed this side of himself when we were dating!"

My response was an honest one. "Sure he did. In fact, the two of you lied to his family for years."

"That was different - we had to lie."

I said, "If they'll do it with you, they'll do it to you."

His family eventually found out about her divorce and blamed the lies on her. Who couldn't have seen that one coming?

People whose eyes linger on every attractive man or woman who passes them on the street? Are they "shopping" or merely admiring? No way to know for sure, but it's a red flag.

People tell who they are, whether it's too many stories that start with, "My friends and I were partying and..." (substance abuse) or the sweet suggestion: "Can you put on something else? I want you to look especially nice today. The blue dress is particularly lovely." (controlling) or "I'm not leaving a tip for that lousy service" (abusive and cheap), or "How nice that you got the big promotion you were up for. Oh, let me tell you about the great donuts Fred brought into work today! (narcissistic - bring the attention back to themselves), or "Gee, I'd love to help you with that but darn it, I'm just so busy" (cross this person off your list when thinking about who you can count on when you need a hand). And so forth.

Like everyone else, I've been fooled many times over the years in all sorts of relationships, but looking back the warning signs were always there. Every. Single. Time.

I just fluffed them off as isolated incidents without connecting the dots.
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You make a lot of excellent points and great examples. I agree that probably in the majority of cases, the signs are there. Not too many people change who they really are after a very young age.
 

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