Give Me Liberty or Give Me Death

Yes, I replied to what I thought you said instead of what you said. Sorry.

Are you a fan of Thomas Sowell's columns as well as his book?
I've only read 2 of his books; Discrimination and Disparities and his biography...I think it was titled Maverick?

He has a YouTube channel I watch a lot where he posts lectures, interviews, and reads excerpts from some of his books.
 

I've only read 2 of his books; Discrimination and Disparities and his biography...I think it was titled Maverick?

He has a YouTube channel I watch a lot where he posts lectures, interviews, and reads excerpts from some of his books.
Ok, he's 93 years old now.

Sowell received his bachelor's degree in economics (magna cum laude) from Harvard in 1958, his master's degree in economics from Columbia University in 1959, and his PhD in economics from the University of Chicago in 1968.

This is probably more than you want to know but another black economist who wrote in the same vein is Walter Williams. He passed in 2020 but his writings are widely available. I first started reading his columns but he also wrote some excellent books.

If I had my way both their columns and books would be required reading in all American schools.
 
learning a trade 100 years before emancipation probably increased your overall resale value…but hardly much else.
Not always. In Louisiana slaves had the right to work for themselves, save money, and buy their freedom. It was easier for a skilled blacksmith than a field slave. It was called "coartación". As a result in the antebellum era Louisiana had more free people of color, and even black slave and plantation owners than other southern state. At the time of the Civil War free blacks in New Orleans owned more slaves, on a per capita basis, than did whites. Not defending slavery, just pointing out it's complexities.

In coartación an enslaved person and their owner agreed on a price to be paid for manumission and signed a contract. Typically, once that agreed-upon price had been paid, the enslaved person was granted their freedom. The process of saving up money was difficult and often took years or decades, as enslaved people could only make money through the informal economy, selling products or labor produced outside of the scope of their enslavement.

Despite its limitations, the practice of coartación was often upheld and enforced by local judges, who could compel obedience to coartación contracts. For example, if an owner and an enslaved person could not agree on a price for coartación, a judge would employ appraisers to set a value that was binding on both parties. Each party was appointed their own appraiser, and if their valuations disagreed, a third one would be brought in to make a final decision. Likewise, if an owner refused to free an enslaved person after they had paid the price, enslaved people were able to use the court system to force owners to meet the terms of the contract.

Once an agreement had been reached and the enslaved person had begun making payments, they attained the status of a coartado or coartada until they reached the point at which they were set free. This status was a legal grey area, as some locations allowed coartados more rights than a typical enslaved person but fewer rights than someone who was free.


https://64parishes.org/entry/coartacion
 

In my opinion, building a curriculum around this would be far more impactful :
Maybe, he does make some good and valid points. However, it has a bit too much of a defensive tone in it for me. Our slavery was awful and the fact that more people were also guilty does nothing to reduce that. The guilt of others is a poor defense...

I think the complexities can be taught without diminishing the evil done here. I believe it would make people more, not less, likely to continue to oppose slavery and try to fix some of the inequities created by it.
 
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The article doesn't explain what age group or grade level this kind of presentation was targeted for.

As a way to discuss the differences in how society works NOW I think this part might be overlooked as having some value.

Quote from article text
"This prompts one of the children, Layla, to ask a logical question: “Good and bad are based on the time you live in?”

Columbus answers, “Some things are clearly bad, no matter when they happen,” without naming slavery as an example. “But for other things, before you judge, you must ask yourself what did society and culture at the time treat as no big deal.”

When I went to school the lesson plans didn't encourage discussion. What was written is what was taught. Thinking about how life has changed as time passes just wasn't done.

Thanks for posting this. Some knee-jerk reactions here, I think. I don't see much wrong with this, to be honest. Encouraging discussion seems to be just what we need today. Slavery is a difficult subject, so this is one way of bringing it to the forefront in a non-confrontational way. And let's not forget, the Bible has passages that support slavery - but people accept that.

Exodus 21 :: NIV. "If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything. If he comes alone, he is to go free alone; but if he has a wife when he comes, she is to go with him.

Now, scholars will find all kinds of ways to twist that into making sense in modern times, but at best it's another discussion point, imo.

Can we stop being offended at each and every thing introduced to our children? They deserve a well-rounded education, even if you are closed minded.
 
I have not read all of the posts on the thread.
I will say however, yes, slavery existed all through the ages.
Does that make it right? NO!

Yes ... slaves for the most part have learnt skills which helped them in later life in their white dominated world.

The fact remains, they were chained and brought against their will to strange lands by the British, the Spanish and the Americas to build a world for their masters.
In order to build, they had to learn skills.

So... who really benefited from these skills?
 
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Historically, Britain ended slavery in 1834, well before the U.S. They outlawed the slave trade itself, altho not slavery, in 1807. The 1834 Act essentially ended slavery in the colonies, as slaves in England itself had already been freed by the 1807 Act.

Interestingly, France did not abolish slavery in its colonies until 1848. But bi-racial children born to French citizens were considered free and equal citizens of France, once they stepped foot on French soil. The French outlawed slavery within France in 1315.

Thomas-Alexandre Dumas Davy de la Pailleterie
, father of the writer Alexandre Dumas ("The Three Musketeers"), was the first person of color in the French military to become brigadier general, divisional general, and general-in-chief of a French army. He was a contemporary of Napoleon Bonaparte. No known images of Dumas exist (reasons below), but he was often described as "the strongest, and the handsomest man, in all of France." There were a number of public statues erected in his honor to celebrate his military successes during the early campaigns of the Revolution.

Napoleon became increasingly jealous of Dumas, who was captured and thrown into prison in the Kingdom of Naples. His subsequent poverty after being released was definitely the result of Napoleon's malice. Once Napoleon became emperor, he eventually ordered all statues and official paintings of Dumas destroyed.

Napoleon also re-instituted slavery in 1802, and it is often suggested that his jealousy of Dumas was a major reason for flouting the ideals of the Revolution he had once espoused. Dumas was known as The Black Count, as he was the son of the Marquis Alexandre Antoine Davy de la Pailleterie and a colonial female slave. His father brought him to Paris specifically so that he would not be considered a slave.

I can heartily recommend this biography - it is extremely well-written about a truly fascinating and remarkable man:

"The Black Count: Glory, Revolution, Betrayal, and the Real Count of Monte Cristo" is a 2012 biography of General Thomas-Alexandre Dumas written by Tom Reiss. The book presents the life and career of Dumas as a soldier and officer during the French Revolution, as well as his military service in Italy during the French Revolutionary Wars and later in Egypt under Napoleon. Reiss offers insight into slavery and the life of a man of mixed race during the French Colonial Empire. He also reveals how Dumas's son – author Alexandre Dumas – viewed his father, who served as the inspiration for some of his novels, including The Count of Monte Cristo (1844) and The Three Musketeers (1844).

The Black Count won the 2013 Pulitzer Prize for Biography or Autobiography and the PEN/Jacqueline Bograd Weld Award for Biography, among other awards and honors.
- excerpted from Wikipedia
 
I have not read all of the posts on the thread.
I will say however, yes, slavery existed all through the ages.
Does that make it right? NO!

Yes ... slaves for the most part have learnt skills which helped them in later life in their white dominated world.

The fact remains, they were chained and brought against their will to strange lands by the British, the Spanish and the Americas to build a world for their masters.
In order to build, they had to learn skills.

So... who really benefitted from these skills?
Exactly. It was slave owners and slave traders who benefited economically. Over-simplifying slavery into an 'employable' scenario leaves out the greater context of the economic, societal, and political aspects involved.

And because these are issues that almost all countries and civilizations HAVE faced, is all the more reason to educate people to actually THINK about why others do certain things, and realize that human behaviors can require making very, very hard decisions.

Wrapping children up in figurative cotton wool does them no favors. History "is what it is" - the important lesson is to learn from it, and not repeat a moral wrong.
 
Remember owning slaves in this country lasted many years…about 260. So learning a trade 100 years before emancipation probably increased your overall resale value…but hardly much else. It is documented that SOME slave owners allowed their slaves to outsource their skills and earn money for their owners. SOME owners allowed them to keep some of the monies. While slavery might be preferable to some sorts of death it probably depended upon how you might die and whose slave you might become. Plus…as a slave you did not get to choose.
You mention "resale value". I wonder whether the approved curriculum mentions slave markets and the selling of children bred from slaves? I assume not, which makes the idea that slaves benefited from learning trades even more offensive.
 
Historically, Britain ended slavery in 1834, well before the U.S. They outlawed the slave trade itself, altho not slavery, in 1807. The 1834 Act essentially ended slavery in the colonies, as slaves in England itself had already been freed by the 1807 Act.

Interestingly, France did not abolish slavery in its colonies until 1848. But bi-racial children born to French citizens were considered free and equal citizens of France, once they stepped foot on French soil. The French outlawed slavery within France in 1315.

Thomas-Alexandre Dumas Davy de la Pailleterie
, father of the writer Alexandre Dumas ("The Three Musketeers"), was the first person of color in the French military to become brigadier general, divisional general, and general-in-chief of a French army. He was a contemporary of Napoleon Bonaparte. No known images of Dumas exist (reasons below), but he was often described as "the strongest, and the handsomest man, in all of France." There were a number of public statues erected in his honor to celebrate his military successes during the early campaigns of the Revolution.

Napoleon became increasingly jealous of Dumas, who was captured and thrown into prison in the Kingdom of Naples. His subsequent poverty after being released was definitely the result of Napoleon's malice. Once Napoleon became emperor, he eventually ordered all statues and official paintings of Dumas destroyed.

Napoleon also re-instituted slavery in 1802, and it is often suggested that his jealousy of Dumas was a major reason for flouting the ideals of the Revolution he had once espoused. Dumas was known as The Black Count, as he was the son of the Marquis Alexandre Antoine Davy de la Pailleterie and a colonial female slave. His father brought him to Paris specifically so that he would not be considered a slave.

I can heartily recommend this biography - it is extremely well-written about a truly fascinating and remarkable man:

"The Black Count: Glory, Revolution, Betrayal, and the Real Count of Monte Cristo" is a 2012 biography of General Thomas-Alexandre Dumas written by Tom Reiss. The book presents the life and career of Dumas as a soldier and officer during the French Revolution, as well as his military service in Italy during the French Revolutionary Wars and later in Egypt under Napoleon. Reiss offers insight into slavery and the life of a man of mixed race during the French Colonial Empire. He also reveals how Dumas's son – author Alexandre Dumas – viewed his father, who served as the inspiration for some of his novels, including The Count of Monte Cristo (1844) and The Three Musketeers (1844).

The Black Count won the 2013 Pulitzer Prize for Biography or Autobiography and the PEN/Jacqueline Bograd Weld Award for Biography, among other awards and honors.
- excerpted from Wikipedia
Fascinating. As always, history is full of surprises and challenges to our assumptions.

As a former school teacher I have found it informative to read curriculum documents for myself. In my day I devised a few curriculum documents for several school based courses. When planning to implement teaching programs for maths, science, computing studies and design and technology I would begin with the official curriculum documents, including notes on the curriculum.

I would very much like to view this controversial history curriculum. Does anyone know where it is available online?
 
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You mention "resale value". I wonder whether the approved curriculum mentions slave markets and the selling of children bred from slaves? I assume not, which makes the idea that slaves benefited from learning trades even more offensive.

Here's Florida DoE contact information for anyone who wants to file their objections to the curriculum.

Office of the Commissioner​

Turlington Building, Suite 1514
325 West Gaines Street
Tallahassee, Florida 32399
Email: Commissioner@fldoe.org
Phone: 850-245-0505
Fax: 850-245-9667
Thanks, Myrtle. I have found a link to the curriculum document and at first glance it looks pretty good. I haven't finished reading it yet.

https://www.fldoe.org/core/fileparse.php/20653/urlt/6-4.pdf
 
Here's Florida DoE contact information for anyone who wants to file their objections to the curriculum.

Office of the Commissioner​

Turlington Building, Suite 1514
325 West Gaines Street
Tallahassee, Florida 32399
Email: Commissioner@fldoe.org
Phone: 850-245-0505
Fax: 850-245-9667

Thanks, Myrtle. I have found a link to the curriculum document and at first glance it looks pretty good. I haven't finished reading it yet.

https://www.fldoe.org/core/fileparse.php/20653/urlt/6-4.pdf
That is an interesting document. Quite long, 216 pages and the relevant parts are a bit scattered. But from what I have read so far it sounds reasonable and quite diverse. However it does not contain the kind of details or specificity that would address the issues raised by @Pepper or @Warrigal , not that I found yet anyway.

I have some interest in this, I went to most of my years of grade through high school in Florida and still have lots of relatives there. My great great aunt, Sarah Pamela Williams, wrote about antebellum Florida and mentions some of our family's slaves. But mostly in passing. Cracker Times and Pioneer Lives: The Florida Reminiscences of George Gillett Keen and Sarah Pamela Williams https://www.amazon.com/s?k=cracker+times+and+pioneer+lives&ref=nb_sb_noss Hope they are getting the story more completely and correctly today than when I was in school.

Florida only recently reworded the state song "Old Folks at Home" (aka Suwanee River) changing the words where the old slaves were longing to be back on the plantation...
 
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Maybe, he does make some good and valid points. However, it has a bit too much of a defensive tone in it for me. Our slavery was awful and the fact that more people were also guilty does nothing to reduce that. The guilt of others is a poor defense...

I think the complexities can be taught without diminishing the evil done here. I believe it would make people more, not less, likely to continue to oppose slavery and try to fix some of the inequities created by it.
The guilt of others proves that slavery was once not only wide-spread, but acceptable, which is its only defense. For me, it's a warning; it's cautionary- just because almost everyone on the planet is doing something against a people or a culture, and your society is fine with it, doesn't make it right.
 
Ok, he's 93 years old now.

Sowell received his bachelor's degree in economics (magna cum laude) from Harvard in 1958, his master's degree in economics from Columbia University in 1959, and his PhD in economics from the University of Chicago in 1968.

This is probably more than you want to know but another black economist who wrote in the same vein is Walter Williams. He passed in 2020 but his writings are widely available. I first started reading his columns but he also wrote some excellent books.

If I had my way both their columns and books would be required reading in all American schools.
I can't think of more than 3 things I'd classify under "more than I want to know." :D
 
Maybe, he does make some good and valid points. However, it has a bit too much of a defensive tone in it for me. Our slavery was awful and the fact that more people were also guilty does nothing to reduce that. The guilt of others is a poor defense...

I think the complexities can be taught without diminishing the evil done here. I believe it would make people more, not less, likely to continue to oppose slavery and try to fix some of the inequities created by it.
And, imo, the bit where this curriculum talks about skills that slavery taught the enslaved tends to reduce the evil.
 
Let us not forget the African queen who sold out her own people.

Njinga gained notoriety for her involvement in the slave trade. As a result of the conflicts during her reign, Njinga's forces took hundreds of thousands of captives.

She sold nearly 200,000 slaves to the Portuguese.
 
What "Give Me Liberty or Give Me Death" means to me:

In my quest to be free, if it is necessary to kill as many of you as I can to obtain it, I will. If I die in the attempt, while killing as many of you as I can then I will die. I will not give my life willingly, I'm going to take you with me. If I can. If I die, it's better than being your slave.

We are going against American History in denying this. It is treasonous to teach otherwise. It is not necessary to teach it at all to the younger grades. In my sixth grade history book the word slavery is barely mentioned. Black or n.e.g.r.o. certainly isn't.
 
In school I was taught that Columbus was a hero.
As an adult I learned otherwise.
Exactly. As a child, we do as we are told and trust that we are being taught ‘right’ or correctly. The idea that ‘truth’ of reality is merely somebody’s personal perspective, we couldn’t possibly grasp. It truly makes looking through history books, questionable to say the least. The majority of what’s written largely depended on who was in power and when. New researchers and writers, then take that biased info and incorporate it into their writings, or their perspective of what happened in these such events.
History being a murky subject is an understatement!
 
the important lesson is to learn from it, and not repeat a moral wrong.
Well said!!
The article doesn't explain what age group or grade level this kind of presentation was targeted for.
It does, elementary school. Makes it all the worse. From the article:

The words coming out of Christopher Columbus’s mouth in a cartoon that has been approved by the Florida Department of Education for showing in elementary schools...
 
When I was in the younger grades, third or fourth, a teacher told us that what we were learning about our history only skimmed the surface; that we would learn more, go deeper and see flaws and contradictions as we entered the higher grades, particularly high school. I never forgot her saying this, obviously. It was exciting to hear there was more and I looked forward to knowing what it was. It was one of those 'awakening' moments.
 
And, imo, the bit where this curriculum talks about skills that slavery taught the enslaved tends to reduce the evil.
That's rather the point, I think. Make enslavement seem like the gift that keeps on giving to the slaves. Why muddy the waters with minor issues like being sold on a whim and families broken up without a thought? Everyday rapes, beatings, whippings, executions, etc?

Pffftt... hardly as significant as the ever-helpful nannying, cooking, cleaning, field work and blacksmithing skills they were taught so they could best serve their owners.
 
Children understand far far more than they are given credit for. Teach them truth. There is no need to make excuses either way about slavery….specifically united states slavery. It was legal. Children should learn that legal did not equate with being right. Not then and not now.
 


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