Will our downtowns be ghost towns in another twenty years?

Old Salt

Senior Member
I just saw a video yesterday that really shocked me. A lengthy view of a part of Market Street in San Francisco! Closed down, banks, businesses, restaurants! This part of SF is starting to look like a ghost town. I always blamed Walmart for the sad demise of small town business, but now this. I checked more cities and sure enough, the rot is starting to show there as well! Who do we blame? Amazon and similar on-line retailers? How can we beautify what's left, or will people get tired of on-line shopping?
 

I just saw a video yesterday that really shocked me. A lengthy view of a part of Market Street in San Francisco! Closed down, banks, businesses, restaurants! This part of SF is starting to look like a ghost town. I always blamed Walmart for the sad demise of small town business, but now this. I checked more cities and sure enough, the rot is starting to show there as well! Who do we blame? Amazon and similar on-line retailers? How can we beautify what's left, or will people get tired of on-line shopping?
Things and ways come and go. I believe the new will come in and the old will go away slowly. However, the past is our history and should never be taken away. Our history built us and we should hold on to it strongly. Without the history of how we got where we are should be cherished.
 
I'm afraid they are in many, many town centres in the UK already..... even my nearest little town.. has no longer any bricks and mortar banks, nor has the town next to it .. and they're closing at a rate of Knots all over the country.. We've lost large department stores everywhere.. very few remaining now... being replaced by coffee shops, nail salons.. and Turkish Barbers..
 
Our downtown was a ghost town 20 years ago, but now it's hopping every night. Every kind of bar and restaurant you could want. Lots of festivals and happenings.

A bit short on interesting shops, though.
Where are you? In St. Petersburg? I heard that the Bay Front took on a whole new renovation in the last 5 or so years.
 
Wouldn't say downtown is exactly vibrant here but it isn't dead yet.
Everything the city recognizes is done in a public way with a celebration downtown.
Streets blocked off for several hours with booths, bands and parades.
Couple of good eateries, couple of upscale taverns, couple of popular churches and a few shops.
That said, there is a highway that completely encircles the city and most everything is out on the loop.
 
Our downtown here in Dallas used to be a ghost town and now it is exploding with new condos and apartments. There was even a park built above an interstate with a green space, restaurants, food trucks and places for kids to play.


Same thing with downtown Miami. I lived in South Florida for many years and downtown was a dangerous place. We visited last December and
everything is now gentrified, with high-rise condos and high-end designer stores.

I think San Francisco has been undergoing a transformation for many years. Although there were always sketchy areas there were some great little mom & pop shops and restaurants in downtown. That came to an end many years ago when the tech giants infiltrated the area. Those small shops were replaced by more big box stores who could afford the rent. Then the pandemic hit and no one went into the city. Also, the stance on crime became complacent and some stores chose to shutter altogether.

We visited friends there a month ago and it reminded us of just how beautiful the area is. They have a townhouse on a hill just outside the Castro district. We went to restaurants there and that is where they do all their shopping. We never even went into the city. They told us it just isn't worth it right now. Very sad, but I think it will eventually make a resurgence.

Seattle went through the same issues, with stores closing and the homeless on every street, but now it is bustling again and new building is everywhere. We visited last October and it felt like pre-pandemic Seattle.

Of course, the challenge with all this urban gentrification is that it is pushing people out who can no longer afford to live in these cities and making some homeless. The price of progress, I suppose.
 
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This is happening everywhere. Over time they'll be used for housing. Shopping is rapidly changing, and we're a long way along the line with it. Honestly, I never go to stores anymore. I get my groceries delivered, I buy on Amazon, etc. I've no use for two centers, and certainly not malls. Well, other than to get my hair cut. I need a cut badly!
 
Not my town!

The result of the DRA’s (Downtown Redevelopment Authority) participation in the Kentucky Renaissance on Main Program, the organization was able to bring in over $15 million dollars to invest in the downtown area. Funds were used in the form of façade grants for commercial and residential properties, streetscaping in and around Fountain Square Park (redesign of landscaping, new park benches and trash receptacles, lighting and a sound system), the creation of the Heritage Walk, the re-creation of Circus Square Park, and other various economic projects including Park Row apartments and more.

The excitement stimulated by these projects and investments is resulting in the resurgence of businesses and development in The District, as well as community interest and events.


Through the creation and development of new facilities, the DRA began to focus its efforts on promoting community and residential participation by creating the Concerts in the Park music series and in 2023 launched Winterfest live from the historic Capitol Theatre downtown.

Concerts in the Park will celebrate their 45th birthday this summer and has grown from a modest 250 attendees to an estimated 25,000 people throughout the three-month summer run. The DRA is hoping to grow the free Winterfest music series in a similar fashion.


Our downtown is thriving!
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When I wrote the first post in this thread, I forgot a lot of things, many of whom affected the general picture. It started with Malls which drew people away from downtown because of the easy parking and having all the stores under one roof.

I actually thought at the time that Shopping Malls were ideal for Canada and its harsh climate. A grocery chain on one end and a major retailer on the other and the Radio Shack in between :) ... perfect.

Then tenants started to rebel because of the high rent and built Box stores. I hate them, so ugly, utilitarian, such a waste of space, you have to drive from one to the other, yet folks took to them because they are big, full of tempting wares and have huge parking lots. They are a blight on civilization!

In the meantime my town (well, it was until 2015) also gentrified! And things look good and wonderfully renewed. But walk down the new streets and you see restaurant after restaurant, pub after pub, outdoor dining, some little craft shops but none of the major players is represented. I remember a downtown with Four major stores, three movie theatres, mom and pop stores ... it was great. To be honest, the place didn't look as good as it does now, but I liked the excitement and flavour of it! Ahh, what nostalgia can do to us!
 
People used to live in cities, rather than commute to them from the suburbs. Now, people are starting to move back into cities. With more people comes more wealth and jobs. Then you run into places like NYC, London, Tokyo, where only the fabulously wealthy live.
Unfortunately London altho' has a certain demographic of very rich people.. a Huge number of the almost 9 million inhabitants are on a very low income if employed at all...
 
Sacramento city officials' answer to solving its *ghostly* south-side area is to build another sports arena there. It's supposed to be completed in a couple of years. The idea is for a non-professional sports arena, but I won't be surprised if that changes sometime after it opens....if it opens.

They're counting on tax revenue from west Sacramento, where the wealthy live, but homeless encampments are creeping in over there. West Sac is near the river, and homeless Sacramentans like to be near that endless supply of free water. Especially during summer. And in Sac, summer normally lasts til mid-Oct, sometimes til around Thanksgiving.

That said, there's really no place for wealthy Sacramentans to go unless they can leave Calif altogether...like if their jobs and businesses aren't here. They won't go south, that's for sure.
 
San Francisco, like many metropolitan cities, chased after the "build 'em big/high" development projects for decades. This is because like almost ALL municipalities, much of their budget money comes from permits, and RE developers pay a lot of $$$$$$ in permits and inspections. In doing so, the problem is that (again like many cities) they built those high-rises after razing a huge number of small business shops, small apartment bldgs and old-style residential hotels with cheap rates for lower-income elders and the poor.

Small businesses closed up, small apartment buildings turned into expensive condos and luxury apartments, and many of the poor became homeless, beginning a rise in homelessness that has only increased.

For a while expensive restaurants and high-end shops came in to support the corporate businesses and high-income residents. But when times turned bad (the pandemic/lockdown, and then tech slowdown/firings) everybody suffers.

Also, remember that in the SFBA, WFH (work from home) remains stubbornly popular. We still have the highest % in the nation of workers who only come into the office 2 or 3 days a week. Some younger people I know haven't been in an office except for the occasional in-person mtg, in almost 3 yrs! So public transit is in financial trouble as well.

City officials are finally now realizing that downtown is no different than any other neighborhood. If you have people who live there 24/7, services will inevitably follow. But converting commercial RE to residential RE is not cheap; there is another whole encyclopedia of rules, permits, and regulations that come into play. It is an accepted tenet of RE that it is cheaper to tear down and rebuild anew, rather than remodel. But when a bldg is forced into bankruptcy, meaning it has a negative cash value, who is going to be able to pay those millions of $$$$$$$ needed for conversion, is not a simple question to answer.

There is also, in the SFBA, the question of personal safety in a high-rise. You might have a great view from 35 stories up, but did you know that the longest length of hose a firefighter can utilize will reach, at most, 5 or 6 stories? Did you know that it takes, on average, 45 minutes to fully evacuate a 25-story building (we won't even guess at the time needed for the 61-story Salesforce tower)?

Not to mention the quake danger - a great many high-rises are built on landfill. SF Bay used to be A LOT bigger before they started filling it in with garbage to make more land available on which to build.

That said, it is certainly possible to reinvigorate downtown areas. Many cities have done it. It's a painful adjustment, no matter where. But San Francisco remains a place that attracts people. Americans might consider it outrageously expensive to buy RE here, but wealthy foreigners consider it one of the most affordable of global cities.

The wealth equity gap in CA is massive. The media that loves to scream headlines that CA is losing population doesn't tell you that most of the people who are leaving make less than $125,000/household, which is poverty level here. The average income of people moving INTO the state is >$250,000.
 
I'm afraid they are in many, many town centres in the UK already..... even my nearest little town.. has no longer any bricks and mortar banks, nor has the town next to it .. and they're closing at a rate of Knots all over the country.. We've lost large department stores everywhere.. very few remaining now... being replaced by coffee shops, nail salons.. and Turkish Barbers..
Sorry to hear that happened. Maybe there will be a person out there to help it come back to life with all this AI.
 
I'm afraid they are in many, many town centres in the UK already..... even my nearest little town.. has no longer any bricks and mortar banks, nor has the town next to it .. and they're closing at a rate of Knots all over the country.. We've lost large department stores everywhere.. very few remaining now... being replaced by coffee shops, nail salons.. and Turkish Barbers..
Oh but the memories of going to them can't be taken away!
 
Good urban planning can counteract this. I recently saw a documentary about the differences between the USA and Europe. The conditions for American cities to become a ghost town are much higher than they are in Europe (public transport, smaller space,...).

I live in Austria, here there are also smaller villages where you can't find a bank, a supermarket, a post office. If I would live there, it would be partly bad for me too. But there are still possibilities and there will be many more in the future. I think one mourns here not the past times after but rather the fact that one must adapt.
 
Good urban planning can counteract this. I recently saw a documentary about the differences between the USA and Europe. The conditions for American cities to become a ghost town are much higher than they are in Europe (public transport, smaller space,...).

I live in Austria, here there are also smaller villages where you can't find a bank, a supermarket, a post office. If I would live there, it would be partly bad for me too. But there are still possibilities and there will be many more in the future. I think one mourns here not the past times after but rather the fact that one must adapt.
Did those smaller villages and towns previously have a bank and supermarket and Post office.. as they did here ?.. even the pubs have been shut down in almost every village here too, and they were the hub of the community...
 


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