Migrant boats in the Mediterranean: Why are so many people dying?

rgp said:
The only "railing" I hear is against illegals . Knock on the door , and enter properly & I believe most would be welcomed .
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If someone makes it to the US and many other countries one is LEGALLY allowed to apply for asylum. That is why the Greeks and Italians (among others) refuse to rescue and/or abandon migrants in the Mediterranean Sea.
 

againstthegrain said:
If someone makes it to the US and many other countries one is LEGALLY allowed to apply for asylum. That is why the Greeks and Italians (among others) refuse to rescue and/or abandon migrants in the Mediterranean Sea.
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Seeking asylum , and entering iilegally are two different things. IMO here in the U.S. the second one is the problem.
 
rgp said:
The only "railing" I hear is against illegals . Knock on the door , and enter properly & I believe most would be welcomed .
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Exactly. My grandparents on my father's side were immigrants. Legal immigrants. Yes, immigrating legally has become harder over the years because it had to as there became less and less room and concerns as the world shrank that were real and legitimate about international crime and espionage. We don't protect our borders now and we've a thriving drug trade from South American cartels and people literally dying from the drugs brought in.

We should screen and allow (as much as it's possible to do so) for criminal activity. The way it is now, the crooks are being allowed to immigrate and the desirable hard-working and honest who would be a boon to this country are being shut out due to the mass migration of criminals. This makes no sense and does not lead to a desirable outcome. People are always labelling it to race too and that's just simply not true. We get illegal Russian immigrants in New York that has led to a Russian mafia. I'm not finding these white people desirable. I'd rather have an honest law-abiding brown person.
 
againstthegrain said:
I don't really understand how Americans of non-native origin can rail against migration seeing how their ancestors came here seeking freedom from religious persecution and economic prosperity. It's the height of hypocrisy.
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There are no native origin. American Indians also migrated here and contrary to popular opinion not before all white men. They also warred among themselves, killed and enslaved each other constantly. There was actually found ancient remains of a red-haired apparently Caucasian people older than the oldest of the migrants PC-labelled Native American, a term I don't like.

I was born here. My mother's family was here close to 400 years ago. I'm as native as any of them. I do understand not liking being mistakenly called Indian because Columbus mistakenly thought he was in India but they need a better term than the Native American when they were every bit as much migrants as the white man and not native to the land. I do find it not only snobby but racist.
 
Blaze Duskdreamer said:
There are no native origin. American Indians also migrated here and contrary to popular opinion not before all white men. They also warred among themselves, killed and enslaved each other constantly. There was actually found ancient remains of a red-haired apparently Caucasian people older than the oldest of the migrants PC-labelled Native American, a term I don't like.

I was born here. My mother's family was here close to 400 years ago. I'm as native as any of them. I do understand not liking being mistakenly called Indian because Columbus mistakenly thought he was in India but they need a better term than the Native American when they were every bit as much migrants as the white man and not native to the land. I do find it not only snobby but racist.
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Someone was living or is living in a country and then some unwanted people show up and proceed to kill all the people currently living there. That sounds like a horrible way to promote a functional society.
 
Paco Dennis said:
Someone was living or is living in a country and then some unwanted people show up and proceed to kill all the people currently living there. That sounds like a horrible way to promote a functional society.
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I'm not saying otherwise but it was not unique to the Americas and quite common across the world at that point in time. We should be very grateful that the human race has evolved past that - though have we? What are we doing in Ukraine?

We've no business there. Ukraine mistreats Russians who live there. I've seen videos of their bullying elderly Russians and laughing about it. Do you support Ukraine? I don't. Russia either. It's none of my business and I really don't care which side wins but my pocket's being picked to support Zelensky's abuse of Russians within his borders.

The people you're crying for really slaughtered one another and what happened to those red-heads that were uncovered when they migrated here? Hmm. I haven't found out and this archelogical dig is largely squashed by those who want to support the narrative of evil white race. It's hard to even find anything on it.

American Indians were not the saints they're made out to be. They also held slaves and readily bought African slaves and enslaved captured white men. They only lost because they had the inferior weapons. Their bows and arrows and tomahawks didn't stand a chance against guns and cannons.

For part of my family saga, because one of my characters that marries into my family is a Mexican immigrant around that time (one reason I know that immigration has gotten tougher, there's two immigrants in my family and that caused interest in the history of immigration to the US), I researched Mexico around the turn of the previous century and learned many interesting facts.

First of all, I get peeved now that I know it was the Mexican rancheros and vaqueros who taught America how to ranch when histories of the cowboys repeatedly fail to mention that fact. They were ranching - including the cattle drives - for 400 years before we were. So I do understand your outrage.

Another thing I found out is that the Navajo ranged down into Mexico and they and the Spanish settlers also warred. I'm not going to go into detail in this forum because too gruseome but the Navajo were particularly brutal and sadistic to any Spaniards they took captive. So much so that some of the Navajo women could not stand it and would help the Spaniards escape. I used this big time in my story and decided to make his mother Navajo, one of the women who did this.

That's the sad, sad truth. Doesn't mean this land belongs to them. It doesn't. They were just one more conquered people amongst many conquered people world wide. It wasn't right but it is what it was. That's what the times were. Again, they were also migrants. And we actually do not know if they had to kill anyone to settle here. We do know - it's established fact - that they warred one another over the land, constantly conquering and being conquered.

Btw, did you know that Germans and Italians were also interred in camps in the US during WW2, not just the Japanese? Sorry. I'm somewhat of a research geek and writing a story about an American family that spans a century and a half has certainly entailed lots of research and sparked my curiosity. Hard to believe I hated history when I was in school. It's fascinating.
 
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rgp said:
Seeking asylum , and entering iilegally are two different things. IMO here in the U.S. the second one is the problem.
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It is a combination Many apply for asylum but here in US around 80% do not quailify for it but guess what after their hearing where most do not show up they are issued a deportation order but no one knows where they are...

Italy, Greece and even Australia have refused people to land on shore .... sent them back to sea ....
seems a bit more harsh then asking these folks to remain in Mexico until their case is heard.
 
againstthegrain said:
I don't really understand how Americans of non-native origin can rail against migration seeing how their ancestors came here seeking freedom from religious persecution and economic prosperity. It's the height of hypocrisy.
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It's simple, really. The railing is about overcrowded cities, rent inequality, higher taxes, a saturated job market, and packed emergency rooms at local hospitals.

It's not about the migrants, it's about how poorly our gov't manages it.
 
Murrmurr said:
It's simple, really. The railing is about overcrowded cities, rent inequality, higher taxes, a saturated job market, and packed emergency rooms at local hospitals.

It's not about the migrants, it's about how poorly our gov't manages it.
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I don't think it's simple at all. "We the people" made it what it is. The .gov is a direct reflection of the people so trying to distance ourselves from the situation by blaming the "gov" is disingenuous at best.

Why are people dying? Read the opinion below.

NYT- Sally Hayden opinion
 
againstthegrain said:
I don't think it's simple at all. "We the people" made it what it is. The .gov is a direct reflection of the people so trying to distance ourselves from the situation by blaming the "gov" is disingenuous at best.

Why are people dying? Read the opinion below.

NYT- Sally Hayden opinion
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I'm not disingenuous, and neither are most of the people complaining about this issue. We expect our elected officials to represent us, but they don't. That's the source of most people's anger, especially with this issue because it effects them directly; their livelihoods, their bank accounts, their neighborhoods....
 
The migration is being orchestrated at a high level by international groups, and NGOs. I can't name them. Google it.
There are hundreds of NGOs helping them with money and directions, etc. It's not a secret. Catholic CHurch is one of them. My question is why so many countries, like the US, allow it. And the only way we can vote on it is to vote for representatives that will fight back against the onslaught, and they are few and far between. I think Greece and Italy are well within their rights to refuse illegals entry. Those countries have a sense of sovereignty.
 
Of course I need to chime in with some factual information before we get too far sown the road of fantasy.

1) Climate change is nothing be 'weather'. Plain and simple. Events are getting more attention than in the past because of the access to 'real time' news. The uproar is because it is view as the 'cookie jar' for subsidies and taxpayer funded handouts to connected corrupt politicians.

2) 'Migrants' in this country are criminals. Yes, they are breaking the laws of our country by crossing illegally. For decades there were venues for legal entry into the US. Criminal behavior should not be accepted.

3) Mexico and South America are opening up their prisons and sending them to the US border. They are getting rid of the criminals, murders, rapists that they do not want in their countries. And because we are now allowing anyone to come into our country illegally, they are more than happy to continue their criminal behavior here in the US. MS-13 is thriving across the country. The US is soft on criminals.

4) We give billions to countries to help their economies so they can keep their people in those countries. They use the money to fuel corruption and release the worst into the US.

5) The criminals coming to the US are not here in the shadows of the founders of this country. They wanted to thrive, prosper, and be successful as upstanding citizens. Today, the US is nothing more than a 'piggy bank' for these criminals. They come here for the 'free stuff', the handouts, the free housing, free food, free medical care, the free cell phones. Money that they receive working 'under the table' many times is sent back to family members in their countries because their needs are taken care of here in the US. There is no giving back to make the US a better place to live. Look up Western Union increase in business to Mexico and South American countries.

I could go on and on, but folks that think its all blue skies and wonderful families that we are here to help are living in a fantasy world. The reality is so much different.
 
Why can't we send migrants to Detroit? Their infrastructure and housing have been abandoned and stand empty. Fill them with "our" migrants; revive Detroit.
 
Murrmurr said:
It's simple, really. The railing is about overcrowded cities, rent inequality, higher taxes, a saturated job market, and packed emergency rooms at local hospitals.

It's not about the migrants, it's about how poorly our gov't manages it.
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No, its about the illegals coming across our borders by the millions. Its about crime, open borders, defund the police, its about a corrupt justice system that give preference to illegals and allows them to commit crimes over and over again.
And why are they allowing them across the border by the millions? They will be the next voting block.
 
Pepper said:
Is Boston? I honestly don't know. Is Detroit?
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Yes, Boston is as well. This is what the administration wants. Texas was right to send illegals all over the country. Share the pain. NY claims to be a thriving hub of the united states, so it makes sense to send them there. NYC wears the badge of being a sanctuary city.
These millions of illegals will be the next voting block. Willing to trade votes for cash.
 
Sippican said:
Of course I need to chime in with some factual information before we get too far sown the road of fantasy.

1) Climate change is nothing be 'weather'. Plain and simple. Events are getting more attention than in the past because of the access to 'real time' news. The uproar is because it is view as the 'cookie jar' for subsidies and taxpayer funded handouts to connected corrupt politicians.
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Sigh... Not sure where your facts are coming from, but most climate scientists, oceanographers and coral reef observers would argue the point with you.
 

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