I disagree. Corporations like CVS, etc. don't hire enough because they don't want to pay honest wages. They want the customer to check themselves out, sparing themselves salaries and benefits. Some CVS's have gone on strike over this to implore CVS to hire more. They refuse to hire, esp. at the new minimum wage. Employees effect their bottom line.
New Video Shows Thousands of Migrants Headed on Foot to Southern US Border
- Thread starter Knight
- Start date
David777
Well-known Member
- Location
- Silicon Valley
I strongly disagree with most of what @VaughanJB related and could refute much of what he relates point by point though doing so on specific statements on a board like this as I've stated several times would not have purpose. What I will address a bit is the back story purposely hidden from the public without pointing at politicians. There are plenty of powerful people, groups, economic powers, Ivory Tower elites, politiicans, endless growth and development advocates, that agree and regularly spout similar views and do so to maintain the status quo, especially for political reasons. But we people can only take so much and soon will be showing NO More in coming elections. And yeah they are now running scared.
What is true is true is much of the public debate is manipulatively framed for economic and political reasons in order to deflect blame elsewhere much like with homelessness and inflation that I've detailed on other posts. See folks, it' a game and American citizens are the gullable willing prey. This is a key reason since the Rea... era our wealth gap has exploded to benefit those in power at the expense of the rest of us.
I also see those like @VaughanJB, especially web trolls, that set up shop on websites like this, then most often easily attack extreme right wing views and then generalize those views across the rest of us, while conveniently ignoring negatives. Same strategy is used by trickle down economic interests that claim we "don't have enough housing" as a reason to let endless illegals across our borders, ignore visa overstays, and back door out of public sight blocking any immigration legislation or enforcement, because if they were honest with the public, many would mutiny.
If politicians were serious about the problem they would first need to fix the agricultural worker issues. You see with globalization in order to be competitive in world markets, there is no way our farms either corporations or individual, can pay the level of wages in order to live in this increasingly expensive country, instead of returning to Bracero type programs even though with technology and oversight such could be run without its old issues.
In California, 4,000,000 from Mexico used to enter our state annually and were happily paid wages similar to what they would receive in Mexico but NOT at our levels. After the comprehensive 1986 immigration legislation, Wall Street monkeywrenched that and used it as a weapon to draw not only those people that our southern border states have always needed, but also many non-agricultural workers here to fill their globalization agendas. Yeah the same ones that destroyed what America used to be with smaller businesses and companies before before Amazon, Walmart, Home Depot, Starbucks...
And what was the manipulative whine, "They will do the jobs that Americans don't want." Manipulative biased partial truths that quietly began here in California while media out east made sure the rest of the nation just laughed at us making usual "fruits and nuts" jokes. In California with a race to the bottom, they first got control of high paying construction jobs, then went into all the huge California union job organizations, gained political control, and before long the same strategy spread to the rest of the USA. Told you so! And then after the EU rose the same is being played out in Europe where citizens are increasingly outraged. Don't be fools listening to the dominant biased media.
Unlike most people, as a 1970s era Counterculture person of the SFBA, like a twig floating down the Mississippi River in flood, long ago I realized I would always have infinitesimal influence on these issues, would never bother joining political groups to change whatever, would not study or bother reading much on these issues, and instead would live my own life in what seems to be my only limited short lifetime of existence, for my own enjoyment and purpose.
That is why I'm a Tahoe skier, Sierra Nevada backpacker, rock dancer, science enthusiast, and landscape and nature photographer. But as a 4+ decade Silicon Valley hi tech electronic hardware worker, I did have a roll in creating computers and the Internet that now gives me at least a small squeaking voice like a mouse, I and other peons can give some pain to powers that deserve such.
What is true is true is much of the public debate is manipulatively framed for economic and political reasons in order to deflect blame elsewhere much like with homelessness and inflation that I've detailed on other posts. See folks, it' a game and American citizens are the gullable willing prey. This is a key reason since the Rea... era our wealth gap has exploded to benefit those in power at the expense of the rest of us.
I also see those like @VaughanJB, especially web trolls, that set up shop on websites like this, then most often easily attack extreme right wing views and then generalize those views across the rest of us, while conveniently ignoring negatives. Same strategy is used by trickle down economic interests that claim we "don't have enough housing" as a reason to let endless illegals across our borders, ignore visa overstays, and back door out of public sight blocking any immigration legislation or enforcement, because if they were honest with the public, many would mutiny.
If politicians were serious about the problem they would first need to fix the agricultural worker issues. You see with globalization in order to be competitive in world markets, there is no way our farms either corporations or individual, can pay the level of wages in order to live in this increasingly expensive country, instead of returning to Bracero type programs even though with technology and oversight such could be run without its old issues.
In California, 4,000,000 from Mexico used to enter our state annually and were happily paid wages similar to what they would receive in Mexico but NOT at our levels. After the comprehensive 1986 immigration legislation, Wall Street monkeywrenched that and used it as a weapon to draw not only those people that our southern border states have always needed, but also many non-agricultural workers here to fill their globalization agendas. Yeah the same ones that destroyed what America used to be with smaller businesses and companies before before Amazon, Walmart, Home Depot, Starbucks...
And what was the manipulative whine, "They will do the jobs that Americans don't want." Manipulative biased partial truths that quietly began here in California while media out east made sure the rest of the nation just laughed at us making usual "fruits and nuts" jokes. In California with a race to the bottom, they first got control of high paying construction jobs, then went into all the huge California union job organizations, gained political control, and before long the same strategy spread to the rest of the USA. Told you so! And then after the EU rose the same is being played out in Europe where citizens are increasingly outraged. Don't be fools listening to the dominant biased media.
Unlike most people, as a 1970s era Counterculture person of the SFBA, like a twig floating down the Mississippi River in flood, long ago I realized I would always have infinitesimal influence on these issues, would never bother joining political groups to change whatever, would not study or bother reading much on these issues, and instead would live my own life in what seems to be my only limited short lifetime of existence, for my own enjoyment and purpose.
That is why I'm a Tahoe skier, Sierra Nevada backpacker, rock dancer, science enthusiast, and landscape and nature photographer. But as a 4+ decade Silicon Valley hi tech electronic hardware worker, I did have a roll in creating computers and the Internet that now gives me at least a small squeaking voice like a mouse, I and other peons can give some pain to powers that deserve such.
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Don M.
SF VIP
- Location
- central Missouri
In addition to all the existing problems with these waves of immigrants crossing our border, there is a very good likelihood that many of them are doing so with the Intent of causing harm. 99% of these migrants are trying to escape their crime ridden and corrupted nations, in hopes of making a better life for themselves and their families.
However, I strongly suspect there are those coming here whose intent is to increase the drug trafficking, etc. I will Not be surprised if we see a major catastrophic event....mass shooting/bombing, etc., on News Years Eve during a huge gathering of people at an event such as Times Square. With the chaos taking place in Israel/Gaza and Ukraine, our open borders are a perfect opportunity for some extremist terrorists to bring their warped ideologies to the US.
However, I strongly suspect there are those coming here whose intent is to increase the drug trafficking, etc. I will Not be surprised if we see a major catastrophic event....mass shooting/bombing, etc., on News Years Eve during a huge gathering of people at an event such as Times Square. With the chaos taking place in Israel/Gaza and Ukraine, our open borders are a perfect opportunity for some extremist terrorists to bring their warped ideologies to the US.
ElCastor
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern CA
I hope it sounds familiar. The inappropriate and illegal nature of the uncontrolled and massive immigration at our southern border has continued without restraint for three years, and will continue unabated for at least one more.Sounds familiar....ElCastor 2024!
Oooh, three years and one more to go, oh no! You better make room for some more scary boogeymen under your bed. Who's your running mate in '24, bloated and orange by any chance?
VaughanJB
Scrappy VIP
So let me ask you some questions. Who is giving jobs to illegal immigrants? What kinds of jobs, and are you sure they're the kinds of jobs Americans want (see the earlier talk about Texas). What percentage of the total number of these immigrants bring drugs? Weapons? Or are members of gangs? I'd love to see some numbers on this, because all I see and read around the web are insinuations and assumptions. Is this real, or just a media soundbite? I'd truly like to know.
San Francisco? Their current problems are well known, but they're down to economic problems, drug addiction, and poverty. The last number I saw stated there were 600 vets on the streets of San Fran! It's tragic. I can't find a single article that puts the homeless numbers down to immigrants.
As for the US having the right to close the border - of course they do. I just think it's a very very bad idea. For example, when we (UK) left the EU, we were promised immigrant numbers would go down. What happened? Numbers have gone UP. You see, if these people can't cross at one border entrance, they'll just go somewhere else. Currently the US Government has in place all the laws and rules brought in by Trump, so not much has changed there. But perhaps give a moments thought to the 2200 people who, this year (2023) drowned in seas around our coastline trying to escape their horrors.
Finally, let's be clear - all immigrants need to be screened and given permission to stay in the country. There are laws and rules around this. I've been through that process myself, and it takes time and you need all kinds of papers. But it's worth noting, the majority of illegal immigrants in the country entered legally, and over-stayed.
Devi
Well-known Member
- Location
- East WA USA
Well, if you took into account the current forced sexual trafficking of women and minors coming over the border, and the bringing in of "families" mainly consisting of youngish fighting-age men, and the cartel drugs, you might look at things a little differently. Even if you're a Democrat.Oooh, three years and one more to go, oh no! You better make room for some more scary boogeymen under your bed. Who's your running mate in '24, bloated and orange by any chance?
I take everything into account, and I am not and have never been a Democrat.
Devi
Well-known Member
- Location
- East WA USA
Good enough. So what about everything else I said in post #32, which I'll quote below:
Well, if you took into account the current forced sexual trafficking of women and minors coming over the border, and the bringing in of "families" mainly consisting of youngish fighting-age men, and the cartel drugs, you might look at things a little differently.
I'll add that there are cartel/gang members coming over the border and causing problems in various states.
Teacher Terry
Well-known Member
David, I agree with much of what you wrote. I am trying to care less about world issues because the average person has no control over what decisions are made. Also I find it weird that a citizen of another country is trying to tell us what to do. I never presume to know how other countries should spend their money.
VaughanJB
Scrappy VIP
Who is trying to tell you what to do? This is a forum, with people from many nations on it. Are some topics "US Only"? The migrant issue is current news in every developed country, and a call for more humanity knows no borders, right?
JeeperDon
Member
- Location
- New Mexico, USA
I can understand the fear of excessive immigration. The same thing happened 500 years ago with a huge influx of Europeans through open borders.
Devi
Well-known Member
- Location
- East WA USA
I know what you mean. I've read that each of the "migrants" coming over the border gets $5000 and some other stuff, taken from the taxes paid by U.S. Citizens. We have homeless and other issues. How is this fair?
Teacher Terry
Well-known Member
While I am not a fan of illegal immigration there’s many crazy claims being made that just aren’t true. Have you seen the pictures of the immigrants sleeping on the streets in both Chicago and New York?
Devi
Well-known Member
- Location
- East WA USA
Sure. I also don't know if those are actually immigrants or our homeless.
Check into some of the things being said by our Border Patrol. It's eye-opening.
Knight
Well-known Member
Not all illegal immigrants are bad, no argument there. Illegals do jobs Americans don't want to do. Still no argument.
The point is they are here illegally. The media is pointing out the impact of the massive increase being felt by localities footing a cost they were not prepared for. Budgets are being strained or outright destroyed by the influx. So what to do to be able to operate the services people have become used to.
No mystery that taxes support services. So will those with taxable wages take a hit? Or will the illegals doing low paid jobs, or under the table wages be contributing?
It's nice to help no argument there. The argument is illegal is illegal & the influx of millions that won't find those low paid or under the table jobs will need help in the form of housing, food, health care, schooling for their children. Hopefully some government agency charged with tracking what our economy is capable of supporting will put forth factual numbers/
The point is they are here illegally. The media is pointing out the impact of the massive increase being felt by localities footing a cost they were not prepared for. Budgets are being strained or outright destroyed by the influx. So what to do to be able to operate the services people have become used to.
No mystery that taxes support services. So will those with taxable wages take a hit? Or will the illegals doing low paid jobs, or under the table wages be contributing?
It's nice to help no argument there. The argument is illegal is illegal & the influx of millions that won't find those low paid or under the table jobs will need help in the form of housing, food, health care, schooling for their children. Hopefully some government agency charged with tracking what our economy is capable of supporting will put forth factual numbers/
ElCastor
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern CA
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...d-immigrants-take-jobs-americans-heres-proof/
TIMELINE: How San Francisco Became A Sanctuary City For Undocumented Immigrants
I would add that jobs taken by illegals are jobs lost to the poorer elements of society, who then turn to crime.
Oh really? All of Trumps laws and orders? I won't introduce politics into this discussion, even though your claims would be easily shattered , but how is the wall building coming along?
As you well know, those immigrants who make it in and are given orders to return and appear before a judge simply disappear or go to a sanctuary city or state and ignore the order to appear. Nothing legal about that.
"2023 Marks Highest Level of Illegal Immigration in U.S. History"
2023 Marks Highest Level of Illegal Immigration in U.S. History | FAIRUS.org
VaughanJB
Scrappy VIP
Sorry, I can't read Washington Post (it's behind a paywall). I would have read the article otherwise......
The CBS News link says "Still waiting on Google Docs, trying again" , and it never loads. The story talks about a single incident, with no wider context. Still, if you take in, oh I don't know, 250,000 desperate people, there's bound to be a percentage of nefarious individuals. That doesn't cast the entire number as bad. I also did some research into the homeless situation in San Fran, and as I noted earlier, none of them gave Immigration as the primary cause.
Seriously? So you claim poor people are turning to crime because immigrants take their minimum wage jobs? Seriously? Perhaps we just need to lock up all the poor people? If there is a job going, then only one person can take it. Fair enough. But I'm just not seeing how this is a major issue - poor people being cheated out of their $18 an hour because an illegal immigrant got their first? A lot has got to happen to make that occur.
Keep in mind, hiring an illegal immigrant could be stopped immediately if employers enforced the law. They don't, because they're probably not even making the $18 an hour........ As a potential employer, you can choose not to hire illegal candidates. Though I am concerned about restaurants around the world.
Directly talking about candidates is verboten here, so neither you nor I can discuss it in any detail. The wall, imo, is and was the dumbest suggestion I've heard regarding immigration. The idea of putting up a 3000 mile long wall to keep people out - while at the same time, I might add, keeps YOU IN - is preposterous. It will never be built, because it's 2023, and if the US thinks it can go to war with China, then it surely can monitor a border, as it has done, for hundreds of years.
The current administration did make some changes to immigration policy, such as making sure kids aren't separated from their parents, and are reunited when it has taken place. But the often proclaimed "the border is wide open" is completely untrue. The fact remains, most illegal immigrants come across the official borders. All the same checks along the border are still in place.
Think of it this way - drugs are the bane of society. So surely, we should stop illegal drugs from entering the country? Except - it's impossible. It's a task that can only be achieved a (relatively) small percent of the time. The streets from East to West are chock full of drugs. Yet it's against the law to bring them in, and the US has spend $1 trillion dollars over 50 years or so fighting back. It's like water, it flows around all that gets in its way. Some problems can't be reduced to 0.
But we're not talking legality here, no-one has questioned that the people in question are illegal. When they enter the country they are given a stamp in their passport with a date on it. Or they're handed a letter to that regard. They're then let free to wander. They will congregate, I assume, where others like themselves are.
As mentioned earlier, illegal immigrants working has been a mainstay in Texas since forever. No-one cared about it, no-one freaked out. In fact, when I lived there, I sometimes wondered if day-to-day living was even possible without the contributions of the hard working people I saw and met.
Further, I'm not saying there isn't a problem, and that a solution is required. I've just not read of any sensible way for it to be handled. In the UK we're talking about sending applicants to Rwanda to be processed. We currently have a boat we're dumping them on. It's not feasible as a policy long term. I maintain that unless we tackle the problem at its root, it'll never be resolved. Rational thinking is shockingly rare on the topic because it's been weaponized.
Regardless, I don't think this is the answer:
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Devi
Well-known Member
- Location
- East WA USA
Here's what an Arizona Sheriff had to say — this is just a little more than a snippet; I'll put the link below:
Immigrants who illegally cross the border into Arizona are being handed $5,000 in good-as-cash gift cards, along with cell phones and costly plane tickets, all of which are being paid for by the American taxpayer, according to Arizona Sheriff Mark Lamb.
Mr. Lamb, sheriff of Pinal County, Arizona, told The Epoch Times that he had been informed of the lucrative hand-out through his close sources working at the United States border.
“I was absolutely in shock when these agents came forward,” said Mr. Lamb. “I had known we handed out free cell phones and plane tickets, but to give out $5,000 Visa gift cards to people who break our laws and come into our country illegally when the average American is struggling to pay their bills is just tough to swallow.”
“People need to know the truth and let their representative lawmakers hear about it. This needs to end,” added Mr. Lamb.
Arizona Sheriff: Illegal Immigrants Being Handed $5,000 Visa Gift Cards, Cell Phones, And Plane Tickets | ZeroHedgeRandomName
Member
It is obvious to me that this administration wants mass illegal immigration it to continue. They could stop it, but do not want to. Can anyone disagree with that? The former administration reduced the illegal flow to a trickle.
The problem with people like you is getting disinformation from rightwing sources like this questionable sheriff and the rightwing rag, EpochTimes. They have you people scouring social media and running scared with the exaggerated BS spreading it far and wide in a panic.
They know their audience, easy targets many of whom would like only immigrants from white European countries.
Most Americans want humane immigration and care about those fleeing for their lives, and welcome them to this country. Our system needs to be improved, but it's a disservice to spread false information about these migrants.
Not all immigrants are criminals, drug/human traffickers, etc......just like not all natural born Americans are criminals, drug/human traffickers or terrorists....but some are, as we have seen.
Most of these people just want a better life and have good intentions. Stop being so afraid of the brown people, your fears are stoked by those with an agenda of White Nationalism. That is not what the United States of America is all about.
US Senate candidate spreads false claims about migrant aid
This once again is being two items legal immigration is one fill in the forms and file to come here ..... or just cross a border illegally .... BIG difference. yet so many only place false blame on others saying "they do not want immigration " easy rhetoric without acknowledging the difference.
as for work it is illegal for an undocumented person to work here. fine those businesses who do it .... look on INDEED or other work sites they often have all capitals ........DO NOT APPLY IF YOU CANNOT WORK HERE LEGALLY
There are 3 ways this is being done under the table ( felony tax evasion) ... fake papers ( felony) or stolen ID ( felony)........ businesses needing workers this is not an answer regardless of the cute we need workers line. how do politicians NOT know it is illegal.
even VISA's given while processing asylum claims (80% of asylum claims are rejected) are temporary not permanent
labor participation is at record low now .... the inaccurate way they count unemployed no longer count people whom are not collecting unemployment etc. people only look at that number and think we need more people .... dig deeper.
The excuses keep changing first "their countries are poor and under issues", now it people from all over the world fly to mexico and walk across why not file paperwork and wait then fly here IF approved.
Now it is climate change...... heading here does nothing for that.
we are paying many central american countries to try to have they keep their citizens home .......they know send more people..... get more money........that is extortion.
The smuggling of people and drugs is not a joke it is happening. most smuggling is for negative purposes and yet some say "no they are all fine until it is in their yard and much like northern cities overwhelmed by illegal migrants now understand and their taxpayers are losing services to pay for it ..... once it hits a pocketbook people pay attention.
Lets clean our own house and i agree stopping illegal entry is needed desperately. This is a recipe for disaster as many have found in recent stories that things did not work as they were led to believe as far as jobs and house etc and some actually after being housed in shelters decide to go home. Sooner or later it is a powder keg of frustration.
how many felonies should equal citizen ship ?
as for work it is illegal for an undocumented person to work here. fine those businesses who do it .... look on INDEED or other work sites they often have all capitals ........DO NOT APPLY IF YOU CANNOT WORK HERE LEGALLY
There are 3 ways this is being done under the table ( felony tax evasion) ... fake papers ( felony) or stolen ID ( felony)........ businesses needing workers this is not an answer regardless of the cute we need workers line. how do politicians NOT know it is illegal.
even VISA's given while processing asylum claims (80% of asylum claims are rejected) are temporary not permanent
labor participation is at record low now .... the inaccurate way they count unemployed no longer count people whom are not collecting unemployment etc. people only look at that number and think we need more people .... dig deeper.
The excuses keep changing first "their countries are poor and under issues", now it people from all over the world fly to mexico and walk across why not file paperwork and wait then fly here IF approved.
Now it is climate change...... heading here does nothing for that.
we are paying many central american countries to try to have they keep their citizens home .......they know send more people..... get more money........that is extortion.
The smuggling of people and drugs is not a joke it is happening. most smuggling is for negative purposes and yet some say "no they are all fine until it is in their yard and much like northern cities overwhelmed by illegal migrants now understand and their taxpayers are losing services to pay for it ..... once it hits a pocketbook people pay attention.
Lets clean our own house and i agree stopping illegal entry is needed desperately. This is a recipe for disaster as many have found in recent stories that things did not work as they were led to believe as far as jobs and house etc and some actually after being housed in shelters decide to go home. Sooner or later it is a powder keg of frustration.
how many felonies should equal citizen ship ?
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fuzzybuddy
SF VIP
- Location
- The Sticks, Northeast PA.
Humans have two legs, and they use them. Humans have inhabited isles, thousands of miles from any other dot of land. There isn't a nation on earth where emigrants didn't become the new locals. People are going to use their legs and for whatever reason move. We could post machine gun nests around the US border and disembowel anyone who tries to cross. But, history proves that those tactics don't work. When people leave their homeland and family, it's usually for dire reasons.
And we have to understand emigrants are not infectious. Also, I don't think every emigrant is a serial killing, raping, drug lord. Some radicals actually think emigrants are human-just people. I think it's time that we realize, we will have new neighbors, whether we want them or not. And no, no native population desires emigrants. Yet native populations all were emigrants at one time.
And we have to understand emigrants are not infectious. Also, I don't think every emigrant is a serial killing, raping, drug lord. Some radicals actually think emigrants are human-just people. I think it's time that we realize, we will have new neighbors, whether we want them or not. And no, no native population desires emigrants. Yet native populations all were emigrants at one time.
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Knight
Well-known Member
And if two or three families that walked into America illegally were to walk up to your door and asked you to shelter, feed & care for their children you would understand they are not infectious and welcome them into your home to stay as long as they wanted to.
Or would you expect others to foot the cost for those entering illegally?
CallMeKate
Well-known Member
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic US
There's that word again. I'm not just saying this for something to say... I truly... truly do not understand why every discussion about the border crisis has so much talk about "they are our neighbors now" and "they just want better for their family" and ... etc. etc. It kind of gets bizarre reading these threads sometimes. We're America... of course we welcome immigrants and always have. People from all over the world fill out the forms, go through the process, and then take their citizenship test and are embraced. They get jobs, they buy homes, they become part of the communties they choose. We welcome them.
This is not the same as what's happening at the border... thousands.... ILLEGALLY. Many people on the FBI's terrorist watch list being caught there. I'm getting sooooooo tired of this blasted virtue signaling. And that's surely what a lot of it is.
Oh, hi there, @Knight ... sorry for spilling my feelings all over your thread, but I'm having a lot of trouble understanding why there's such trouble comprehending legal vs. illegal immigration.
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