Genesis 4:14 >>> 4:17, A&E were NOT first humans

[David777]

Not saying any of Genesis has any actual historic history behind it, but if it does reflect some actual events even if vaguely as I prefer to choose, the below is an example of major misinterpreted dogma for the sake of religious anthropocentric agendas. Yes we in a galaxy with hundreds of billions of stars in a universe with hundreds of billions of galaxies are of coarse the special ones it was all for.

From Genesis 4:14 through 4:17 alone, one can make strong arguments that Adam and Eve were not in fact the first humans but IMO the first improved models, a result of visiting UIE genetic work. Beyond that potential evidence, just look up in the night sky while considering how briefly geologic time wise, homo sapiens have existed while already being able to create primitive AI we are certain now will only grow more powerful (to a yet unknown extent) as scientist globally, intensely work on it. And Genesis 5:5 clearly shows Adam was NOT genetically an ordinary homo sapiens. See folks don't dismiss all of it just because some scripture might be easily dismissed.

Gen 5:5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years; and he died.

(mouse select to enlarge)

 

[dilettante]

The problem we have is that our past back that far isn't really knowable, much less prior.

For all we know, some of what we call UFOs and such might be distant cousins looking in on us.

Go back far enough and there might well have been an advanced pre-"human" civilization that time and geologic action has long erased.

Maybe when a serious cataclysm was coming, most packed up and left for alternative planets to settle. There are always those who stay behind, and perhaps we're descended from them after collapsing back to a dwindling number of hunter-gatherers. Later the Earth returned to a more hospitable state and through sheer luck the survivors began to multiply and then progress instead of winking out of existence.

Maybe we actually do have lingering evidence, but proper interpretation eludes us... in part because of vested interests in the way those things "shall be" interpreted?

 

[OneEyedDiva]

I think I've heard that before. Also my son mentioned to me that there are at least 4 other historical figures with the same backstory as Jesus.

 

[Pepper]

Lilith, don't forget Lilith, the first female companion.

 

[jet]

 

[PeppermintPatty]

The problem we have is that our past back that far isn't really knowable, much less prior.

For all we know, some of what we call UFOs and such might be distant cousins looking in on us.

Go back far enough and there might well have been an advanced pre-"human" civilization that time and geologic action has long erased.

Maybe when a serious cataclysm was coming, most packed up and left for alternative planets to settle. There are always those who stay behind, and perhaps we're descended from them after collapsing back to a dwindling number of hunter-gatherers. Later the Earth returned to a more hospitable state and through sheer luck the survivors began to multiply and then progress instead of winking out of existence.

Maybe we actually do have lingering evidence, but proper interpretation eludes us... in part because of vested interests in the way those things "shall be" interpreted?

Humans have evidence that blows the Adam & Eve story up by a long shot. I won’t dive into that as evidence. It’s there for anyone to discover. The Bible was written ‘before’ all this other info was discovered.

 

[Paco Dennis]

The myths of creation stories are rich in symbolism. Every ancient, and not so ancient culture developed some kind of myth that explains where they came from. It is a biological advancement we call imagination. The 10,000 stories all come from this wonderful quality we humans have, imagination. It is real.

 

[Old_Dame]

Not saying any of Genesis has any actual historic history behind it, but if it does reflect some actual events even if vaguely as I prefer to choose, the below is an example of major misinterpreted dogma for the sake of religious anthropocentric agendas. Yes we in a galaxy with hundreds of billions of stars in a universe with hundreds of billions of galaxies are of coarse the special ones it was all for.

From Genesis 4:14 through 4:17 alone, one can make strong arguments that Adam and Eve were not in fact the first humans but IMO the first improved models, a result of visiting UIE genetic work. Beyond that potential evidence, just look up in the night sky while considering how briefly geologic time wise, homo sapiens have existed while already being able to create primitive AI we are certain now will only grow more powerful (to a yet unknown extent) as scientist globally, intensely work on it. And Genesis 5:5 clearly shows Adam was NOT genetically an ordinary homo sapiens. See folks don't dismiss all of it just because some scripture might be easily dismissed.

Gen 5:5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years; and he died.

(mouse select to enlarge)
View attachment 324246

The beauty of this thread rests in the fact that it stirs us towards thoughts of uncertainty and possibility all at the same time. For some, perhaps towards faith, and others towards scientific or imaginative reflection.

Whichever direction we’re inclined to cling or posture; the fact remains, that our inability to be certain; is an uncomfortable reminder of just how small we really are in the absence of reliable data, or substantiated information concerning our natural beginning.

“The battle between two starting points; God’s Word and man’s word” will always exist, unless one or the other is one day proven with indisputable evidence.

Who knows, a day may come when pigs fly. Until that time, all it requires is a certain amount of patience, receptivity, and tolerance for the nebulous aspects of life we ponder.

As the OP so eloquently stated:

“ … Homo sapiens have existed while already being able to create primitive AI we are certain now will only grow more powerful (to a yet unknown extent) as scientists, globally, intensely work on it.”

Wherefore, “now our watch begins.”

 

[dilettante]

Humans have evidence that blows the Adam & Eve story up by a long shot. I won’t dive into that as evidence. It’s there for anyone to discover. The Bible was written ‘before’ all this other info was discovered.

I've always assumed that the story stems from something like a couple who migrated for whatever reasons and started a family. Others came along later, but eventually local myth arose that one of those "first families" was everyone's "source." Maybe that family intermarried with others a lot or something to make them part of most people's "line" and so that story arose and was held onto.

 

[PeppermintPatty]

I've always assumed that the story stems from something like a couple who migrated for whatever reasons and started a family. Others came along later, but eventually local myth arose that one of those "first families" was everyone's "source." Maybe that family intermarried with others a lot or something to make them part of most people's "line" and so that story arose and was held onto.

Your guess is as good as mine.
Its seems that humanity has questioned where we originated for as long as we’ve been here. We ‘need’ to know where we came from and why we are here. Different areas of the world have different beliefs
It does make for an interesting conversation

 

[George1959]

Lilith, don't forget Lilith, the first female companion.

Lilith is a very interesting and fascinating woman, much more than Eve.

 

[David777]

If ancient at least mostly non-organic UIE's actually visited as I lean towards, there are several places in Genesis scripture beyond the few lines I've focused on in this thread, where I could make interesting inputs pointing to the UIE's being potentially responsible for some of what has been recorded even if such is rather primitive. Not scripture others might notice subtle clues from but this science person does. To actually make sense of this, actual Hebrew translations have value versus translated English whole sentences.

For instance one example is at Genesis 2:4 where Moses recordings likely began as in not Gen 1:1, that was likely added far later by Jewish priests during their captive Babylonian era, scripture talks about in the Garden of Eden, a tree of knowledge and a tree of life that A&E were not supposed to consume the former lest they be cast out and die.

What I see there are possible actual special genetically developed trees to grow special nutrients and medicines that UIE's used to keep A&E alive far longer than the 930 years Adam supposedly lived. Not only A&E but likely other humans not mentioned in Genesis they would use at their Earth bases elsewhere. What happened is A&E were cast out of that garden so no longer had access to special nutrients that their own bodies could never produce. That UIE's tried to have actual humans tend their garden versus some AI robots is not at all surprising.

Not too far in our own human future given genetic science, we will no longer be raising farm mammal animals for food that has ethical issues, nor growing food in test tubes in laboratories, but rather growing food and medicines directly from genetically engineered plants including trees. So these old OT myth like tales have such clues that make possible sense if interpreted in new ways.

UIE's would have enormous reasons to try and improve we intelligent creatures, especially if over billions of years in other places of the universe, the same kind of issues occur whenever intelligent organic technological species arise. The fact we warmongering humans are now on the brink of destroying not only our own species but also taking with us most of the complex life on our precious blue water planet with it bears on that sad reality.

 

[ArnoldC]

Following this thread, I am reminded of the sad ending to James Hilton's Lost Horizon and the [mythical?] Shangri-La.

My companion, Sharon, is strongly grounded in scripture and interprets it literally and accepts in wholly. I on the other hand, have a foot in a different camp.

Myth as passed down through the ages by differing cultures, to me at least, must have some bearing at sometime relating to actual occurrences. People just don't make this stuff up out of thin air. Of course, human nature is to embelish tales, esp. if they are passed through the generations vocally instead of written. Therein lies the conundrum. How to unravel it all? I'll leave that to folks smarter than me. All I suspect is that, yeah, something happened back then that has yet to provide me a reasonable, believable explanation.

 

[papa tiger]

We are the product of our forbearers loins. No more or less. The radiation give off by the uranium in the soil and solar change our Genome. We are screwed in the long run. Of course our Ai can do surgery and make us in their own image. Haha It's ok, moving on, it's the way of things. It won't matter how it turns out. The Universe is a vast spot in a unlimited spacewalk time moment. So it all keeps on keeping on; no end, never stopping, just Connected over space time. so you see forever, non-ending, smoked hot stuff happening somewhere all the time. There is no reason to believe there will be an empty end of energy. haha, not going to happen, just a big bang again.

 

[David777]

The following are the official Genesis footnotes and cross references in the NABRE (New American Bible Revised Edition) that is the official bible for Catholics and Episcopalians that in 1936 commisioned creation of an official American version from the original Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek texts, with a first 1970 edition revised a few times with the latest in 2010.

Notice how Genesis 4:8 through 4:16 below notes differs from my own science based speculation posted above that these Genesis sections of the Yahwist text were actually directly influenced by UIEs. Significantly it admits that there seems to have been a significant "population" of humans in the world that of course reflects modern science that Creationists in particular deny given their inerrant scriptural views. In other words, Catholic scholars have for decades quietly seen Genesis as NOT inerrant with Adam and Eve NOT the first humans, that tends to be expected by ordinary folk. The footnotes also dismiss the Nod reference that I view as possibly indeed an actual region.

[4:8] Let us go out in the field: to avoid detection. The verse presumes a sizeable population which Genesis does not otherwise explain.

* [4:11] Banned from the ground: lit., “cursed.” The verse refers back to 3:17 where the ground was cursed so that it yields its produce only with great effort. Cain has polluted the soil with his brother’s blood and it will no longer yield any of its produce to him.

* [4:15] A mark: probably a tattoo to mark Cain as protected by God. The use of tattooing for tribal marks has always been common among the Bedouin of the Near Eastern deserts.

* [4:16] The land of Nod: a symbolic name (derived from the verb nûd, to wander) rather than a definite geographic region.

This is also more clearly explained in the Preface to that Bible edition that includes much more than the below covering both the OT and NT. That of course greatly conflicts with views or many ordinary Christians that have little to never studied what scholars were actually debating that until recent decades has been mostly hidden from the general public. But now with vast amounts of information online, anyone can now read scholarly views.
Although we can never know with certainty what is and what is not true, there is still great value in reinterpreting as best we can, traditional denomination dogma during this age of science and technology lest many Christians dismiss religion altogether as nonsense that they ought not for the sake of their potential Eternal Life existence as this person's faith and hope chooses.

New American Bible Revised Edition

...Who wrote the Pentateuch, and when? Up to the seventeenth century, the virtually unanimous answer of Jews and Christians was “Moses.” Moses wrote the Pentateuch as David wrote the Psalter and Solomon wrote the wisdom literature. Though scholars had noted inconsistencies (compare Ishmael’s age in Gn 16:16 and 21:5, 14) and duplications (Gn 12, 20, and 26), they assumed Mosaic authorship because of the prevalent theory of inspiration: God inspired authors while they wrote. With the rise of historical criticism, scholars began to use the doublets and inconsistencies as clues to different authors and traditions.

By the late nineteenth century, one theory of the sources of the Pentateuch had been worked out that proved acceptable in its main lines to the majority of scholars (apart from Christian and Jewish conservatives) then and now. It can be quickly sketched. In the premonarchic period of the Judges (ca. 1220–1020 B.C.), the twelve tribes had an oral form of their story from creation to the taking of the land.

With the beginnings of monarchy in the late eleventh and tenth centuries, the oral material was written down, being known as the Yahwist account (from its use of the divine name Yhwh). Its abbreviation, “J,” comes from the German spelling of the divine name. In the following century, another account took shape in the Northern Kingdom (called E after its use of Elohim as a divine name); some believe the E source is simply a supplement to J.

After the fall of the Northern Kingdom in 722/721 B.C., the E version was taken to Jerusalem where it was combined with the J version to produce J-E. During the exile (conventionally dated 587–539 B.C.) or thereafter, an editor recast J-E to make it relevant for the exiled population. This editor is conventionally known as P (= Priestly) because of the chronological and ritual interests apparent in the work. P can also designate archival material and chronological notices. The audience for the Priestly edition no longer lived in the land and was deeply concerned about its survival and its claim on the land...

 

[David777]

I've been occasionally posting herein on threads including this Bible thread without much explanation how I lean towards the probability of ancient UIE's Ultimate Intelligent Entities and not organic little green men as is common in science fiction but rather robotic non-organic AI's. The following is an good summary article of how that narrative has been ongoing for a few decades now though ignored by usual news media.

Why Don't We See Robotic Civilizations Rapidly Expanding Across the Universe?
snippet:

...The idea that humanity is not likely to come into contact with an alien species but could learn of their existence through their robotic emissaries is a foregone conclusion among many SETI researchers. And it certainly makes sense. Why send a crewed mission on a multi-generational interstellar voyage fraught with hazards and no guarantee of success when you can send self-replicating robots? In addition to not being vulnerable to cosmic radiation, these probes could expand outwards ad infinitum, carrying messages of greetings to anyone they encounter...

I also love how in Star Trek the Next Generation, Symbiosis episode, Picard has this to say about the Prime Directive that I strongly believe is a key reason why extraterrestrials would remain hidden from we Earthlings for ethical reasons. Something writer's of the TV fiction had well thought out.

PICARD: Main Bridge.
CRUSHER: When the Felicium runs out, the people of Ornara will suffer horrible withdrawal pains.
PICARD: No doubt, but they will pass.
CRUSHER: That seems so cruel. We could have made their burden easier.
PICARD: Could we have? Perhaps in the short term. But to what end? Hold. Beverly, the Prime Directive is not just a set of rules. It is a philosophy, and a very correct one. History has proved again and again that whenever mankind interferes with a less developed civilization, no matter how well-intentioned that interference may be, the results are invariably disastrous.
CRUSHER: It's hard to be philosophical when faced with suffering.
PICARD: Believe me, Beverly, there was only one decision.
CRUSHER: I just hope it was the right one.

 

[papa tiger]

Men wrote all that crap too! The fact is limitless possibilities and unlimited time for it all.
Sure Sending VEGR out there on an endless encounter mission is a no brainer.
Maybe a tiny designed near light speed voyage is possible but the return time lag is meaningless.
Unfortunately ours is limited, enjoy it while you got your youth is a great thought.

 

[David777]

Now that I've gained some attention of SF members on other versions to the dominant Adam & Eve oral Judeo-Christian traditions, I'm going to widen the scope of this thread to more world wide geographies of the more ancient Stone Age where the story of the rise of we homo sapiens begins. In recent decades, there has been an enormous increase in archeological and anthropological science, much as a result of field work and studies, that has been rewriting what was heretofore known. Although I have older books on ancient history, the below is much more current and valuable.

The following video is a superb 43 minute summary journey through these periods presented from increasingly dispersed hunter gather groups to earliest neolithic villages to earliest cities until the Greek era. Because the below video uses mentally understandable graphics complementing verbal narration, it is an easier modern telecom era mental process for learning that Youtube in particular is increasing using in all manner of educations.

However the video is so fast paced moving through the ages that this person has needed to watch it multiple times and uses the Pause button at times to stop, especially where more complex visuals as maps are shown.

The anthropology is excellent explaining ideas of how and logic why humans developed various customs and laws that most only are aware from much later Judeo-Christian traditions that absorbed the earlier customs and laws. Especially laws and punishments for various marriage and gender rules. And yes I do expect it will be more meaningful and entertaining than much of what people daily watch on the tube. Best viewed, not within the small forum window but rather at the Watch on Youtube link.

​

The Birth of Civilization and the Ancient Middle East | The Ancient World (Part 1 of 5)​

 

[David777]

As I posted earlier, the popular alien Anunnaki stories are generally considered by scholars to be obvious manipulative anthropomorphic nonsense delivered by credible sounding supposed experts for the sake of selling books and sensational media with paid web advertising. For the sake of illuminating how those stories are nonsense to those many gullible, the below link ought make that clear. However, I will speculate with an open mind, UIEs may have visited in more secretive ways I do tend to lean towards.

The below Youtube link is an up to date scholar based 90 minute archeological documentary of the Sumerian civilization. Shows surviving British Museum in London stone artifacts mostly from the city of Umma and arid Iraq landscapes during the narration. The Umma ruins (above image) are one of several ancient Middle Eastern sites the hateful Islamic State has been hideously bombing. The narration is an astounding translation from thousands of stone tablets with both pictographs and written Cuneiform symbols.

Unearthing the Secrets of Mesopotamia, The American Archaeology Quest for the Cradle of Civilization

 

[David777]

Beyond the previous archeological research journey into the Sumerian world in my above post, one will much more enjoy Paul Cooper's superbly narrated and visually image complemented 165 minutes 4k UHD video documentary below, that much more deeply and entertainingly tells that same story in amazing detail from the accumulated work of decades of recent era scholar's work deciphering those ancient stone tablets from long crumbled into dust and ruin long forgotten cities with emotional human lives. That story is supported by excellent still and recent drone photography, maps, satellite images, anthropology insights, as well as museum art of that first ever human civilizations remains, all we humans owe much to what we have become, both successes and failures.

For this person at the end, I felt like I had just watched an epic historic movie. Feeling a deep sadness while shedding a tear at its final ending Cuneiform tablet poem that reflects on our seeming true human mortal limited finite nature. A sadness that if a supreme being exists within our immense universe as I do, provides rays of hope that indeed offers we intelligent organic loving beings that have faith a gift of possible eternal life... David

The Sumerians - Fall of the First Cities

 

[AnnieA]

UIE

I understand this in context, but the acronym isn't easily defined by a search, even with accompanying search terms that go along with visitors from other planets. Might want to consider writing a lesser known acronym in full terms for the first use in a post with the acronym following enclosed in parentheses.

 

[David777]

I understand this in context, but the acronym isn't easily defined by a search, even with accompanying search terms that go along with visitors from other planets. Might want to consider writing a lesser known acronym in full terms for the first use in a post with the acronym following enclosed in parentheses.

UIE is shown in my post #16 above as "Ultimate Intelligent Entity" that I prefer not to fully type out more than once in any thread. Have also more fully explained what that means in several past posts on other threads I won't repeat every time I use such. It is what most otherwise refer to as "God" but without the Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnipresent magic-like connotations applied to such. Thus a race ancient entities with physical limitations that are likely at least mostly non-organic immortal if not physically destroyed. The god of the Christian Bible is repeatedly in scripture not described in scripture as having such unlimited powers that is more a development by Middle Age philosophers.

 

[AnnieA]

UIE is shown in my post #16 above as "Ultimate Intelligent Entity" that I prefer not to fully type out more than once in any thread. Have also more fully explained what that means in several past posts on other threads I won't repeat every time I use such. It is what most otherwise refer to as "God" but without the Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnipresent magic-like connotations applied to such. Thus a race ancient entities with physical limitations that are likely at least mostly non-organic immortal if not physically destroyed. The god of the Christian Bible is repeatedly in scripture not described in scripture as having such unlimited powers that is more a development by Middle Age philosophers.

The point is it's lesser known. In fact, nothing comes up in a search even though you spelled it out. UI does, but not UIE. It's standard writing convention to write each word the first time a lesser known acronym or abbreviation is used in an article or in this case a thread.

You have some very interesting ideas that I often find compelling and agree with but the presentation leans to pretentious which is off-putting (at least for me) for a general discussion board. (Do realize this may be the way your brain is wired rather than the goal of displaying your truly superior intellect.) As for your explaining in other threads, I participate in several boards and don't read all threads on any of them ...don't recall having seen you discuss UIE.

 

[David777]

"Ultimate Intelligent Entities" comes up dozens of times with 4 pages of Search listings. Note, anything less than 4 characters never works in SF Search so I can understand why you were frustrated if you tried searching on just UIE without looking higher in the thread for what that was. Trivial, no problemo @AnnieA. Enjoy watching the Cooper's terrific Sumerian video. I start few threads, and those I do are usually not with an expectation of much discussion but rather a presentation of interesting web information.

The following is a snippet from the best UIE explanation on a Last edited: Mar 20, 2023 post.

Has there always been stuff or nothing?

...Such a race of inorganic AI's is what I sometimes refer on this board as Ultimate Intelligent Entities aka UIEs. Once that occurred and took control, Big Bangs within their region of infinite space evolved such that Big Bangs would forever forward in time produce fundamental physical constants agreeable to organic life. Over infinite time that has spread to the infinite in all directions. And such UIEs might create DNA organic zoo worlds within their local realms via robotic directed panspermia.

That is why I don't lean towards the dominant Christian religious idea created by imaginative pre-science philosophers of "God" being omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, but rather ancient entities of great power and capability though with limitations. If such a race of moral UIEs can give eternal life to this otherwise mortal organic human being that is otherwise certain to die into eternal non-existence, then it is all I need to call them God and be eternally grateful. And I further lean towards Jesus being their final attempt to right we intelligent Earth monkeys onto a moral eternal path. -David

 

[AnnieA]

"Ultimate Intelligent Entities" comes up dozens of times with 4 pages of Search listings. Note, anything less than 4 characters never works in SF Search

'Search' generally means Internet search engines, not a board specific search, so no, I didn't search SF to find what your uncommon acronym means. And won't now. This whole exchange is tedious and you've lost a once interested reader ....a Christian Agnostic who has long believed we're not alone in the Universe.

Again, stick to standard writing conventions regarding acronyms and abbreviations at the beginning of each new work/post and there won't be an issue. Maybe create a clearly worded, concise definition you can hyperlink in your OPs. There are new people joining all the time who are not going to be bothered to search your past threads to figure out what you're talking about.