I very much appreciate the clarification. There's so much controversy about the death penalty and the morality of ending someone's life for committing a capital crime. The fact is, assuming that the convict is absolutely, without question, guilty, then I agree with you. Quick, quiet, and painless would be the way to go. I read that keeping a prisoner on death row can exceed $100,000 per year. That money could be better spent elsewhere.
Execution with Nitrogen gas
- Thread starter Don M.
- Start date
I wonder how many of the countries that most of us would regard as decent, civilized places have the death penalty. And what are the statistics on having the death penalty as a deterrent against crime? Does a country such as the U.S.. which has a death penalty have a lower crime rate?
If not (and, of course, the answer is "it does not!") then the only justification is anger, hate, revenge, frustration, retribution, and the hope that the guy really is indisputably guilty. And "proof of guilt" often boils down to how good or bad the prosecuting attorney and the defense attorney were.
Those who are undeniably guilty are often mentally ill, but don't always fit the 19th century definition of mental illness, If they belong to a racial minority, even if they are mentally ill, and are unlucky enough to be in a southern state, they are much more likely to get the death penalty anyway.
The raging anger behind "let's kill 'em, I don't want to keep providing them with prison food for the rest of their life" smacks to me of religious indoctrination at its worst. People are either good or evil, and the legal system is wise enough to determine who shall live and who shall die. And I think that using the feeble argument that their ration of (probably horrible) prison food is costing every one of us a small fortune, frankly sounds disingenuous to me.
Want to cut down on people being murdered in the U.S.? Instead of executing convicts, and worrying about the cost of prison food, how about implementing some reasonable gun control?
If not (and, of course, the answer is "it does not!") then the only justification is anger, hate, revenge, frustration, retribution, and the hope that the guy really is indisputably guilty. And "proof of guilt" often boils down to how good or bad the prosecuting attorney and the defense attorney were.
Those who are undeniably guilty are often mentally ill, but don't always fit the 19th century definition of mental illness, If they belong to a racial minority, even if they are mentally ill, and are unlucky enough to be in a southern state, they are much more likely to get the death penalty anyway.
The raging anger behind "let's kill 'em, I don't want to keep providing them with prison food for the rest of their life" smacks to me of religious indoctrination at its worst. People are either good or evil, and the legal system is wise enough to determine who shall live and who shall die. And I think that using the feeble argument that their ration of (probably horrible) prison food is costing every one of us a small fortune, frankly sounds disingenuous to me.
Want to cut down on people being murdered in the U.S.? Instead of executing convicts, and worrying about the cost of prison food, how about implementing some reasonable gun control?
I didn’t mean for anyone to think I was pointing them out specifically as using the gas to kill their birds, but here’s a real example of what I was referring to. There is a large chicken plant northwest of Harrisburg called Bell & Evans. I’m not sure how popular their brand is, but I do know they have darn good chicken, but like anything else, you pay for what you get. IOW, it’s very expensive.
On patrol one night, I was called to the company because of a fight was taking place between 3 men and one pulled a knife. After I got that all taken care of, I kind of got caught in the chicken anesthesia department and there I had a long conversation about how they euthanize their chickens, which I found very interesting for an old farm boy like myself.
If you’re really interested in the process of what happens to the chicken before you put it on your dinner table, you should read this. It made me aware of why their chicken is so expensive.
Chickens
State cops aren’t allowed to accept gifts. After the fight was taken care of and I had the 3 men hauled into the barracks, the foreman offered me a “box” of chicken with about 20 pounds of meat inside, but I had to turn down the offer. A few days later, they delivered it to my house. I worked third shift, so I was in bed. My daughter answered the door and not knowing better, she accepted the box.
When I woke up, I carefully opened the box after running a magnet over it and saw that it was 20 pounds of breast meat off the bones. I called my supervisor and he said to put it in my refrigerator and keep my mouth shut. Now, Bell & Evans is the only chicken my wife will buy. It’s really good. I did stop by the plant and thanked the men and ladies for their gift, but I had to remind them to please don’t do it again. I still like my job. We all had a chuckle and they agreed that I wouldn’t be getting anymore free chicken.
Remy
Well-known Member
- Location
- California, USA
Don M's idea isn't a bad one. Though I too am against the death penalty. I'd have been fine with letting this jerk die in jail, whenever that would be, in relative obscurity.
Sadly I heard on the radio the son's of the murder victim speaking about their mother. It was very sad to hear them refer to her still as "mama." They clearly loved the mother they lost to this bad person.
Sadly I heard on the radio the son's of the murder victim speaking about their mother. It was very sad to hear them refer to her still as "mama." They clearly loved the mother they lost to this bad person.
You make some good points. The U.S. has the highest incarceration rate in the world. So clearly, incarceration is not a deterrent to crime.
When you say the "only" justification is anger, hate, etc." I have to disagree. People that commit horrific crimes such as murder, should, and in many cases do, forfeit their right to remain in society at large. However, I believe the thought behind execution is not only for the safety of the population at large but also it's the ultimate justice, an eye for eye.
I'm not sure I understand your reference to religious indoctrination, speaking only for the U.S., which is largely christian, the death penalty is widely disparaged and is already not used in nearly half the states based on moral concerns. Is this what you mean by religious indoctrination?
In case of absolute proof of guilt, I have no problem with the death penalty. It serves no purpose to incarcerate a person until they die. That is, in itself, a certain sort of death in my opinion. Some years ago large portions of the U.S. prison system were privatized and now run as a business. I wonder how much this affects the incarceration rate, if at all? Perhaps it's good business for the prisons to have lifetime "customers".
And, to your point about gun control, I agree 100%. Based on the mass shootings, the daily shootings, and general violence around our gun culture I have to wonder why a certain faction of our government steadfastly refuses to implement some safety measures. In fact, that contingent is steadily working to make gun access easier. Several southern states have done away with the need for any sort of training to get a concealed carry permit and anyone in those states over (18?), can carry a concealed gun. Moreover, many states allow open carry. Much like the wild west, one can strap a gun in their holster and head out to the grocery store. It's very difficult to fathom.
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Rich, good question. I should have been more specific.
Just by analyzing the correlation between church, mosque, etc. attendance throughout the world, and the use of the death penalty in that place, it is very clear that the two go together. Societies that are more secular tend to be more liberal, and more civilized in their control of people's behavior. Societies run by dictators, which are more warlike, which use archiac and often cruel religious justifications for their laws, are more likely to shout "Off with his head!" like the queen in Alice in Wonderland.
About gun control, we are in complete agreement.
Your clarification is much appreciated and agreed with.
OneEyedDiva
SF VIP
- Location
- New Jersey
Oh cruel, like stabbing his victim to death? For money no less! I wonder if he felt the kind of pain that she felt? I believe her manner of death was much more horrible than his. I'm not a proponent of capital punishment, no matter the form, but for this POS I say good riddance!
Wayne
Senior Member
I think your mistaken on carrying a holstered gun like a handgun in your age clarification maybe 21 yo I know for Texas that is correct. If I am mistaken please let me know... I carry a permitted handgun daily here there is no way I could estimate how many hours of training I have had nor how many background checks I have had. I recently just had 2, 5 agency Federal city and state checks.
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David777
Well-known Member
- Location
- Silicon Valley
The main cost in executions has always been legal costs for defending states against those well funded groups against the death penalty. Remove legal costs, excessive legal requirements, and execution is obviously way cheaper. One can gauge the level of intended manipulation in anti-execution arguments by the simple fact over decades, anti advocates always lump all costs together without mentioning legal.
What is true is before the modern era in Western civilizations, numbers of people were convicted of crimes without adequate legal processes and those were often along wealthy or political versus poor and or racial lines. More of the guilty until proven innocent mindset I grew up in.
Additionally even in this modern USA era, there are circumstances in some jurisdictions where death sentence laws are less than fair or reasonable as well as the reverse. In any case, this person is not versed in such legal areas, not interested in doing so beyond reading headlines, nor willing to argue either way about beyond offering a terse gut reaction to. That gut reaction is yes in some cases, society needs to figure out how and when execution has value. In others, especially when absolute certainty given modern legal processes is lacking even given guilty verdicts, a life sentence is wiser.
What is true is before the modern era in Western civilizations, numbers of people were convicted of crimes without adequate legal processes and those were often along wealthy or political versus poor and or racial lines. More of the guilty until proven innocent mindset I grew up in.
Additionally even in this modern USA era, there are circumstances in some jurisdictions where death sentence laws are less than fair or reasonable as well as the reverse. In any case, this person is not versed in such legal areas, not interested in doing so beyond reading headlines, nor willing to argue either way about beyond offering a terse gut reaction to. That gut reaction is yes in some cases, society needs to figure out how and when execution has value. In others, especially when absolute certainty given modern legal processes is lacking even given guilty verdicts, a life sentence is wiser.
VaughanJB
Scrappy VIP
There is no evidence that the death penalty is a deterrent.
The following countries have the death penalty:
China, India, the United States, Singapore, Indonesia, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Nigeria, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Japan, and Taiwan.
I wasn't entirely sure; that's why I added the question mark ("18?") in my comment. Also, it seems to vary by state. In Florida, it's 21 with no permit or training requirement. It's somewhat like letting people drive cars without any training. I understand the 2nd Amendment, and I'm not really against gun ownership, but again, in my opinion, there's no credible reason not to require some basic training and a background check.
Here's the law for Florida:
"On the first of July, Florida’s new concealed carry law officially went into effect. Signed into law by Governor Ron DeSantis in April, House Bill 543 allows most adults to carry weapons and firearms without the need for a permit." They must be 21 at the minimum.
Here's the law for Georgia:
Georgia prohibits the possession or control of a handgun by any person under age 18. There's multiple exceptions that permit carrying for those under 18 in GA. The statute does not seem to require any training.
Minimum Age to Purchase & Possess in Georgia
hollydolly
SF VIP
- Location
- London England
In todays' media...China has been outed as the country who puts more people to death than any other country in the world.
Amnesty International said it had recorded 883 executions in 2022 - a huge jump from 579 in 2021. After China, it said Iran had executed around 570 people, followed by Saudi Arabia, which executed 196. But China's total outstripped them all, and is estimated to be more than all other countries combined
Mobile death vans, firing squads, lethal injections: These are all methods used by China to carry out more state-sanctioned executions than all other nations combined.
While the communist state does not release its official figures, rights groups believe many thousands of people are executed each year - more than the likes of Iran, Saudi Arabia and the US, even when tallied together.
Criminal law in the country is as severe as it is obfuscated, with many crimes punishable by death under Beijing's draconian legislation.
Death sentences are frequently handed down for crimes ranging from drug trafficking to murder, but also white collar crimes such as corruption.
According to a report published in 2021, China's Penal Code of 1997 - which is still in force today - has 46 crimes punishable by death, including 24 violent crimes and 22 non-violent crimes.
While the number of such crimes has slowly reduced (in 1979 it was 74, according to the Taiwan Alliance to End the Death Penalty), executions remain widespread, creating what Amnesty International calls a 'conveyor belt of executions'.
In 2022, the World Coalition Against the Death Penalty said that at least 8,000 people per year were executed in China from 2007.
There have been glimpses into China's 'conveyor belt of executions' over the years, with videos and pictures emerging of public 'execution rallies' and summary killings.
Perhaps one of the most shocking revelations was that Beijing deploys 'execution vans,' also known as a mobile execution unit.
The vans allows roaming death squads to carry out state-sanctioned killings without the need to move the prisoner to an execution ground.
From what we do know about the vans, they tend to be converted 24-seat buses.
On the outside, they appear as normal police vehicles, with no external markings to indicate what it is used for. On the inside, however, is an execution chamber.
According to reports, the rear of the vehicle houses a windowless chamber where the execution itself takes place.
Several CCTV cameras are also present in the van, meaning the execution can be recorded or watched if officials desire to monitor it.
The rest here...
Inside China's execution conveyor belt
Amnesty International said it had recorded 883 executions in 2022 - a huge jump from 579 in 2021. After China, it said Iran had executed around 570 people, followed by Saudi Arabia, which executed 196. But China's total outstripped them all, and is estimated to be more than all other countries combined
Mobile death vans, firing squads, lethal injections: These are all methods used by China to carry out more state-sanctioned executions than all other nations combined.
While the communist state does not release its official figures, rights groups believe many thousands of people are executed each year - more than the likes of Iran, Saudi Arabia and the US, even when tallied together.
Criminal law in the country is as severe as it is obfuscated, with many crimes punishable by death under Beijing's draconian legislation.
Death sentences are frequently handed down for crimes ranging from drug trafficking to murder, but also white collar crimes such as corruption.
According to a report published in 2021, China's Penal Code of 1997 - which is still in force today - has 46 crimes punishable by death, including 24 violent crimes and 22 non-violent crimes.
While the number of such crimes has slowly reduced (in 1979 it was 74, according to the Taiwan Alliance to End the Death Penalty), executions remain widespread, creating what Amnesty International calls a 'conveyor belt of executions'.
In 2022, the World Coalition Against the Death Penalty said that at least 8,000 people per year were executed in China from 2007.
There have been glimpses into China's 'conveyor belt of executions' over the years, with videos and pictures emerging of public 'execution rallies' and summary killings.
Perhaps one of the most shocking revelations was that Beijing deploys 'execution vans,' also known as a mobile execution unit.
The vans allows roaming death squads to carry out state-sanctioned killings without the need to move the prisoner to an execution ground.
From what we do know about the vans, they tend to be converted 24-seat buses.
On the outside, they appear as normal police vehicles, with no external markings to indicate what it is used for. On the inside, however, is an execution chamber.
According to reports, the rear of the vehicle houses a windowless chamber where the execution itself takes place.
Several CCTV cameras are also present in the van, meaning the execution can be recorded or watched if officials desire to monitor it.
The rest here...
Inside China's execution conveyor belt
VaughanJB
Scrappy VIP
In todays' media...China has been outed as the country who puts more people to death than any other country in the world.
Amnesty International said it had recorded 883 executions in 2022 - a huge jump from 579 in 2021. After China, it said Iran had executed around 570 people, followed by Saudi Arabia, which executed 196. But China's total outstripped them all, and is estimated to be more than all other countries combined
Mobile death vans, firing squads, lethal injections: These are all methods used by China to carry out more state-sanctioned executions than all other nations combined.
While the communist state does not release its official figures, rights groups believe many thousands of people are executed each year - more than the likes of Iran, Saudi Arabia and the US, even when tallied together.
Criminal law in the country is as severe as it is obfuscated, with many crimes punishable by death under Beijing's draconian legislation.
Death sentences are frequently handed down for crimes ranging from drug trafficking to murder, but also white collar crimes such as corruption.
According to a report published in 2021, China's Penal Code of 1997 - which is still in force today - has 46 crimes punishable by death, including 24 violent crimes and 22 non-violent crimes.
While the number of such crimes has slowly reduced (in 1979 it was 74, according to the Taiwan Alliance to End the Death Penalty), executions remain widespread, creating what Amnesty International calls a 'conveyor belt of executions'.
In 2022, the World Coalition Against the Death Penalty said that at least 8,000 people per year were executed in China from 2007.
There have been glimpses into China's 'conveyor belt of executions' over the years, with videos and pictures emerging of public 'execution rallies' and summary killings.
Perhaps one of the most shocking revelations was that Beijing deploys 'execution vans,' also known as a mobile execution unit.
The vans allows roaming death squads to carry out state-sanctioned killings without the need to move the prisoner to an execution ground.
From what we do know about the vans, they tend to be converted 24-seat buses.
On the outside, they appear as normal police vehicles, with no external markings to indicate what it is used for. On the inside, however, is an execution chamber.
According to reports, the rear of the vehicle houses a windowless chamber where the execution itself takes place.
Several CCTV cameras are also present in the van, meaning the execution can be recorded or watched if officials desire to monitor it.
The rest here...
Inside China's execution conveyor belt
Pretty sure it'll shock no-one to know nefarious acts are wrought in China. They're not really a good standard.
Interesting to note that the homicide rate in the UK is around 10 per million annually. In the US it's 6.3 per hundred thousand!