Have you ever heard of Antinatalism?

Grampa Don

Grampa Don

Yep, that's me
Location
Orange county, Calif.
I came across it in an article I read. It's the belief that it is cruel to have children because existence leads to suffering. So, they think it is better and kinder not to be born. I have a hard time wrapping my head around this. Yes, a lot of people have crummy or even tragic lives. But, is not even having a chance for a good life better? All I know is that if I had never been born I would have missed out on some good stuff. But, I guess I'm one of the lucky ones.
 

I am aware of this theory, but didn't know it's name. I always thought it was because of the perceived dangers in the modern world. No matter how hurt we have been, there are others who have suffered more painfully than any of us.

But if someone chooses not to procreate for this or any other reason, I guess it's their business.
 

Well, much of our lives is a matter of pure chance; what your parents are like, where you were born, and what conditions prevail during your time. It's true that some people get the short end of the stick. I don't have a fix for that. There probably isn't one. People who don't want children should definitely not have them. Nothing is sadder than an unwanted child. But, to claim that no one should have children is like saying that no one should have a good life. Clearly, many people do have good lives overall.

When my wife was in hospice, I asked her "we've had a pretty good life haven't we?" Without hesitating she said "we've had a really good life". That meant a lot to me. Life is a gamble. But, you can't be a winner if you don't even enter the game.
 
I think my father was part of the greatest generation and lived during the best times. I see how things have changed during my time, and again during my children's time. If you watch any news at all, you may begin to consider that for today's youth, not having children may not be such a bad idea, both because of how the world has changed and more so because of what we have allowed our children to become.

I'm not speaking of your children, but the children of today.
 
What a pathetic line of reasoning. Why would anyone want to believe that life wasn't worth the Suffering.
Its mostly about the cost of living and raising kids now. Look to the laws, women have to work all their
lives to get decent Social Security, they can no longer count on getting their husbands. Its all about
government greed. The unborn are made to no get born because of all the right to life taxes on homes.

Ron White said it right, "There is No Fix for Stupid !" "No pill you can take." Stupid is Fo-evah !

My Turkish neighbors are strolling their newborn down my street. A. Citizen. Maybe their spies? Kids a Citizen.
Not my Paygrade to worry about a wonderful young couple and their new American Citizen Child.
 
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VisualBrian said:
I think my father was part of the greatest generation and lived during the best times. I see how things have changed during my time, and again during my children's time. If you watch any news at all, you may begin to consider that for today's youth, not having children may not be such a bad idea, both because of how the world has changed and more so because of what we have allowed our children to become.
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I heard virtually the same comment from a fellow I worked with back in the '60s. There never was a golden age. The world has always been going to hell. If your Dad was part of the greatest generation like my folks, then he lived through the great depression and Hitler and
Mussolini's rise to power.
 
Grampa Don said:
I heard virtually the same comment from a fellow I worked with back in the '60s. There never was a golden age. The world has always been going to hell. If your Dad was part of the greatest generation like my folks, then he lived through the great depression and Hitler and
Mussolini's rise to power.
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Cool story but mostly irrelevant as I was referring to the state of our children today.
 
Grampa Don said:
I see. I thought you were saying your father lived during the best of times. I'm not sure what you mean about what we've allowed our children to become.
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Sorry, I should have been clearer that I thought he "grew up" in the best of times compared to myself and my children and grandchildren. The best times as a child because we had things like parenting, work ethics, family values and common sense.

As for what our children have become, I'm referring to...
the child who identifies as a "cat" and screams at the Vet for not giving him a physical
the young person who wants to marry his pillow
the child who won't go to work after finishing free college because they only want a paycheck, not a job
the young people who hate their country and think they want communism

etc, etc, etc, as seen on TV, etc.

I just think it may not be such a bad thing for them to abstain from procreation.
 
VisualBrian said:
As for what our children have become, I'm referring to...
the child who identifies as a "cat" and screams at the Vet for not giving him a physical
the young person who wants to marry his pillow
the child who won't go to work after finishing free college because they only want a paycheck, not a job
the young people who hate their country and think they want communism

etc, etc, etc, as seen on TV, etc.

I just think it may not be such a bad thing for them to abstain from procreation.
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The reason you know about these kids is that they are outrageous and they make good news fodder. I think it would be a mistake to judge the majority by their actions. Regular normal kids don't usually make headlines.
 
Grampa Don said:
I came across it in an article I read. It's the belief that it is cruel to have children because existence leads to suffering. So, they think it is better and kinder not to be born. I have a hard time wrapping my head around this. Yes, a lot of people have crummy or even tragic lives. But, is not even having a chance for a good life better? All I know is that if I had never been born I would have missed out on some good stuff. But, I guess I'm one of the lucky ones.
Click to expand...

Well, this is commonly known as the "First Noble Truth of Buddhism". As far as i know, it essentially means that we live our lives fulfilling our desires, but you can't avoid suffering. Christianity essentially says the same thing, but promises it'll all work out in the end with an ascent in to heaven. The pain and pointlessness of life has been part of philosophical thought for centuries, perhaps the most famous concept of which is nihilism (Nietzsche being a key thinker).

Then you have the idea expressed here that, given the choice, it would have been better to have not been born. That's an interesting topic. On the one hand, my life doesn't have any meaning in the big picture. If I had not been born, nothing significant would have changed. Nothing of importance, anyway. I live each day because that's how the biology works. My eyes open, and here I am. I don't plan to be alive this afternoon, I just will be (I hope!)

On the other hand, a do-over would be fantastic. I could right all my wrongs, take the opportunities I passed by, and perhaps of done some good in this world. I'd do things very differently, and that will always be a regret. And yes, that's painful at times.
 
That one one thing I love about life. We tend to ask ourselves questions that are literally impossible to find satisfactory answers for. "The Unanswerables". Maybe that is the point of pondering life in such a manner. We could just ask easy question that have answers, but no, I have to wonder if I will live after I die. That is a lesson for me. I am aware when I have posed to myself an unanswerable question, usually. I think if I dig deep and long enough, and read in depth about the possible answers I will find out, or at least be satisfied. That ability to even imagine questions like these has given us our reasoning abilities.

So I let mine roam as much as they need to to look for clues, knowing that reasoning these imponderables is basically fruitless. It is like taking a walk in a new place. You can discover fresh , interesting, and surprising insights this way. But, to bring back definitive answers. I don't expect that. Because there are none to be found.
 
Paco Dennis said:
That one one thing I love about life. We tend to ask ourselves questions that are literally impossible to find satisfactory answers for. "The Unanswerables". Maybe that is the point of pondering life in such a manner. We could just ask easy question that have answers, but no, I have to wonder if I will live after I die. That is a lesson for me. I am aware when I have posed to myself an unanswerable question, usually. I think if I dig deep and long enough, and read in depth about the possible answers I will find out, or at least be satisfied. That ability to even imagine questions like these has given us our reasoning abilities.

So I let mine roam as much as they need to to look for clues, knowing that reasoning these imponderables is basically fruitless. It is like taking a walk in a new place. You can discover fresh , interesting, and surprising insights this way. But, to bring back definitive answers. I don't expect that. Because there are none to be found.
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Curiosity about the human condition is important. Frankly, I think too few people ever consider it, not deep down. I mean, if you believe in the teachings of the Bible, then you've essentially got it all worked out, right? Yet we can't rely explain consciousness, let alone it's implications. I'll also say, personally, that I know truly looking into this topic isn't a casual endeavor. It's not a throwaway line. It takes a lot of time to digest. It takes a lot of reading. It takes a lot of barrier breaking. Not everyone is willing to do that, especially when the gain can sometimes seem worthless (sic).
 
I tend to let the time I am in dictate the experience and the reasoning that goes on. I try to stay in the present, and that could mean a a place in my mind that has no relevance to what is happening around me. I do not like guided pathways so much as going to where I am drawn. This leads to uncharted territory, or which I like, but you have to be well grounded if you choose to explore very much. Too much grounding, not explore much. I all depends on how comfortable are you about becoming homeless. Not many of us. I stay as conventional as necessary to keep myself alive. We have to. How we explore is are own business anyway. :)
 

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