Murrmurr
SF VIP
- Location
- Sacramento, California
Arafat did agree...temporarily. The troubling detail was that the Palestinians would still have Jews for neighbors.
Hamas and Netanyahu are a curse on their peoples, but there is a sliver of hope
- Thread starter Paco Dennis
- Start date
You always make sensible posts about foreign affairs. I appreciate that article and your input. It's so true that it is a huge horror show. I hope somehow this ends and there will be better times for all living in Gaza and Israel. No war is sensible IMO. There are so many other ways to live and negotiate what is needed for all the people concerned.
Debrah N.
Senior Member
- Location
- Alberta, Canada
Actually, when he agreed and signed his name as the representative of the Palestinian people, the document he signed said that Israeli Jews had a right to live, free of violence and in that country. A letter was also sent out by Arafat to the Palestinians, that they must renounce terrorism. According to Jimmy Carter who worked tirelessly in that country, trying to push it through to a positive resolution for both sides, was that the Right of Return for the Palestinian refugees who'd been languishing since 1948 in refugee camps in Jordan and Lebanon was put off instead of being decided in that moment.
The Oslo Accords were signed in 1993, Palestinians were given five years to begin organizing their new government and it was agreed by the Israeli's and Arafat, that after that, discussions on Palestinian refugees returning, would begin. But two years later, Rabin, who signed with Arafat, was assassinated by an Israeli terrorist who hated the whole plan. And things deteriorated from that point on, with Arafat ultimately being poisoned (according to his widow who sent tissue samples to Sweden (?) to be tested for poison).
Yitzhak Rabin and Yasser Arafat sign accord for Palestinian self-rule
From the link: the Oslo Accords, signed in Washington, D.C. on September 13, 1993. This was the first direct, face-to-face agreement between Israel and the Palestinians and it acknowledged Israel’s right to exist. ........ The Palestinians agreed to combat terror and prevent violence in the famous “land for peace” bargain........As time went on, timetables stipulated in the deal were not met, Israel’s re-deployments were slowed ......... (my words: and then the 2nd Intifada happened and the terrorism began again.)
However, it should also be noted that the Israeli's have consistently refused to even consider that right of return as a possibility. And that has been 'read' by experts on the area and situation, as being because of their fear of becoming the minority group in that country if all the Palestinians come home.
The end point, in relation to your comment, was that Arafat's signing was breathe away from bringing peace. Perhaps if the Israeli government of the time were actually open to the idea of Palestinian neighbours with equal rights, it might have succeeded.
And you know, I read either here or on some YT video comment, that with all the water that has gone under the bridge between the two groups, it's unlikely that there could ever be peace. But we have a wonderful example of how change can happen and things move ahead and peace can prevail in the worst situations. How many years were black people the slaves of a good portion of white society in America....100 years? And now there are black congressmen and senators and even a black president and myriad very successful black businessmen and women, etc. So Israel and Palestine could be neighbours and live peacefully.
Last edited:
Murrmurr
SF VIP
- Location
- Sacramento, California
So, the troubling detail was that the Palestinians would still have Jews for neighbors.
Debrah N.
Senior Member
- Location
- Alberta, Canada
Or you could say the troubling detail was that the Israeli's would still have Palestinians for neighbours. According to Jimmy Carter's book, Peace, Not Apartheid, the issue was more that the Israeli's didn't want to let Palestinians come home because they, the Jewish people would be outnumbered. So the Israeli's who had the support of the West, also threw a wrench into the gears repeatedly, to prevent peace.
While every Jew has Right of Return even if they have never lived in Israel, Palestinians can have their citizenship revoked even if they were born in Israel and lived there all their lives. If they go abroad to study and are there for 7 or more years (to become a doctor for example), Israel will take their citizenship away. Even the family members of people who've been accused of some criminal act, have had their homes bulldozed or citizenship revoked, which is a form of forced transfer, another act that is in violation of International Law.
Israel: Jerusalem Palestinians Stripped of Status
And it has happened that Palestinians living in Jerusalem, have been evicted from the homes their families have lived in for generations, so that a Birth Right Jew can have their home. Gaza has something like 2.5 million residents. In 1967, there were only 394,000 Palestinians there. Since then, the balance of the 2.1 million people are Palestinians who have been evicted or have lost their homes to settlers to the West Bank or in Jerusalem. Again, forms of forced transfer.
Both sides have killed and both sides must give up their goals of being the only residents of Israel. But with Israel having the vast majority of power, the ball is in their court almost entirely. They have to quit stealing Palestinian land/homes and they have to begin allowing Palestinians to step by step, control their own lives. Just like we in the West have had to learn to live with the indigenous people in our countries. It seems me that Israel is functioning like Canada and the US did 200 years ago. The difference is that the Palestinians have factions that aren't laying down and taking it.
While every Jew has Right of Return even if they have never lived in Israel, Palestinians can have their citizenship revoked even if they were born in Israel and lived there all their lives. If they go abroad to study and are there for 7 or more years (to become a doctor for example), Israel will take their citizenship away. Even the family members of people who've been accused of some criminal act, have had their homes bulldozed or citizenship revoked, which is a form of forced transfer, another act that is in violation of International Law.
Israel: Jerusalem Palestinians Stripped of Status
And it has happened that Palestinians living in Jerusalem, have been evicted from the homes their families have lived in for generations, so that a Birth Right Jew can have their home. Gaza has something like 2.5 million residents. In 1967, there were only 394,000 Palestinians there. Since then, the balance of the 2.1 million people are Palestinians who have been evicted or have lost their homes to settlers to the West Bank or in Jerusalem. Again, forms of forced transfer.
Both sides have killed and both sides must give up their goals of being the only residents of Israel. But with Israel having the vast majority of power, the ball is in their court almost entirely. They have to quit stealing Palestinian land/homes and they have to begin allowing Palestinians to step by step, control their own lives. Just like we in the West have had to learn to live with the indigenous people in our countries. It seems me that Israel is functioning like Canada and the US did 200 years ago. The difference is that the Palestinians have factions that aren't laying down and taking it.
Last edited:
Murrmurr
SF VIP
- Location
- Sacramento, California
Jews believe Palestine is their home, in biblical terms. But they didn't *take* it.
Palestine was part of the Roman Empire. In fact, they named it. It was part of the Ottoman Empire, who didn't bother to name it. It was desolate, sparsely populated, and mostly arid. After the fall of the Ottoman Empire, Britain controlled that whole area and parsed it out.
Then the Armenian genocide happened, but that's another story. (which Turkey still denies)
Palestine was the Holy Land to Jews, Muslims, and Christians, and all of them visited there, made annual pilgrimages there, and a lot of them lived there. The Jewish population grew as pograms and Jew-killings and deportations happened throughout the Middle-East, and by around 1910, some 35,000 Jews lived relatively peacefully in Palestine beside their Christian and Muslim neighbors.
After WWII there was this huge problem of displaced Jews, and the League of Nations looked to Britain, which still controlled Palestine (under The British Mandate, 1922). By the end of the war, the Jewish population in Palestine had increased to over 30%, and they were still coming. The local Arabs were not happy about it, and killings happened. A group of radical Zionist Jews formed, and there were killings on both sides, so in 1947, Britain handed the problem of Palestine to the General Assembly and they held a big meeting and eventually the Partition Plan was agreed upon - an independent Arab State, an independent Jewish State, and the City of Jerusalem under "an International Trusteeship System".
Right after that, Arabs blew up a bus load of Jews on their way to Jerusalem. It wasn't a good start. When a small group of about a half-dozen Jews retaliated using rifles, Arabs exaggerated the incident and have used it as propaganda ever since.
At that point, "Palestinians" weren't a people yet. Not a people, or culture, or religion. There was no such thing as Palestinians until the early/mid 1960s ('64, I think). During the time of the British Mandate, the term "Palestinian" was used to describe Jewish people living in Palestine.
Anyway, bottom line, the Arabs were not happy to have Jews as neighbors, least of all the self-proclaimed "Palestinians" and other faithful followers of Mohammad the prophet. And a great majority of them still aren't happy about it. Eliminating Jews wherever they are found is their religious tenet and doctrine, and, at least in Gaza, in their governing charter.
You still haven't given me the whens and wheres of "Israel stole the homes, farms and entire villages (and) deprived [Palestinians] of food and water and homes and murdered and imprisoned Palestinian men, women and children without hesitation". ....I can't find that anywhere.