So you don't approve of any church music then? Or power point presentations or video links or photos or microphones etc etc etc because Jesus didn't use them???
Church service with drag show
- Thread starter LoveTulips
- Start date
I think that people in the past were far more attuned to simply the spoken word than we moderns are. Elizabethans listened attentively to Shakespeare. People today have come to expect and demand “bells and whistles,” together with increasing degrees of showmanship and outrageousness. Sadly, the showmanship at times has come to eclipse the actual message, be that in entertainment or religion. Both seek to captivate.
Consider what passes for popular live show entertainment these days. In the 1960’s, you might have the Beatles dressed in suits, just singing and playing their instruments. Today, you have performers who not only sing, but dance in special outfits and are often accompanied by scantily dressed, gyrating dance troupes. There are often pyrotechnic displays and other visual effects during a performance, plus lyrics which if publicly uttered at one time might have led to charges being filed. Now those lyrics are mouthed by children…
The medium has become the message…
Consider what passes for popular live show entertainment these days. In the 1960’s, you might have the Beatles dressed in suits, just singing and playing their instruments. Today, you have performers who not only sing, but dance in special outfits and are often accompanied by scantily dressed, gyrating dance troupes. There are often pyrotechnic displays and other visual effects during a performance, plus lyrics which if publicly uttered at one time might have led to charges being filed. Now those lyrics are mouthed by children…
The medium has become the message…
good assessment of issues! - is religion leading the way still or are the new ways of society mapping out new religions? - or at least modifying them ??I think that people in the past were far more attuned to simply the spoken word than we moderns are. Elizabethans listened attentively to Shakespeare. People today have come to expect and demand “bells and whistles,” together with increasing degrees of showmanship and outrageousness. Sadly, the showmanship at times has come to eclipse the actual message, be that in entertainment or religion. Both seek to captivate.
Consider what passes for popular live show entertainment these days. In the 1960’s, you might have the Beatles dressed in suits, just singing and playing their instruments. Today, you have performers who not only sing, but dance in special outfits and are often accompanied by scantily dressed, gyrating dance troupes. There are often pyrotechnic displays and other visual effects during a performance, plus lyrics which if publicly uttered at one time might have led to charges being filed. Now those lyrics are mouthed by children…
The medium has become the message…
Really? That sounds the same to you? I don't think causing your fellow Christian to lust (something Jesus, not Paul this time, didn't like) is at all the same thing as trying to justify rape in a court of law. I'm surprised you think they're the same.
Yes men are responsible for their own actions, alcoholics are responsible for their own actions and most drug addicts are not forced to take those drugs, but there is an understanding in most churches that we help each other deal avoid temptations. I was raised in a Methodist church that used grape juice rather than wine for communion so that the taste of alcohol wouldn't set off the urge in alcoholic members. maybe we weren't responsible for whether or not they fell off the wagon but we cared about them. If you have trouble caring about men remember that women have temptations, too.
I agree with you that God is more concerned with what's on the inside than our outward presentation, but I do think he cares about showing respect and giving him our best. Sometimes what is on the outside reflects our inner thoughts.
Why was Cain's offering of second rate vegetables not as good as Abel's offering of a perfect lamb? God wasn't actually going to eat either offering, but he saw that Abel wanted to give God his very best, while Cain wanted to save the best for himself. Like someone saving their best clothes for work and only caring about their own comfort in God's house.
Good post!
PeppermintPatty
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How do you know what happened way back then? Maybe women did get up and dance. Maybe musicians did play while he talked. None of us know.
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That's right, I don't approve most of that stuff for smaller churches. I think a little bit of music is okay, but it has way taken over most churches today so that there is little room for anything else.
We had a young pastor that "brought us up to date" with all of that stuff including many large screen TV's. It was all completely unneeded in our small church. Total cost $60,000 dollars that would have been so much better spent on our homeless population.
After this pastor had been with us for six months I asked him if we were ever going to have communion. He said he hadn't had time to work that out and that the young people didn't like it that much. He had had time to write a little hymm and teach it to all of us as well as all the redesigning of the church. When i reminded him that John Wesley (Methodist founder) had said we should have communion as often as possible because that is how we receive grace, he told me I was being petty.
Davey is expressing this much better than I am. We seem to be following pop culture so much more than following Christ.
StarSong's quotes remind us that we don't look like him to others. Instead of reaching out to the marginalized people we are just entertaining ourselves.
I can only go by what is reported in the four accounts in the Bible and none of that was mentioned.
How do you know that, Della? Maybe they did all the joyous group things you are describing. Trumpets, harps, dancing, etc. were a big part of religious celebrations in those days. And Jesus was a young man with a devoted following who enthusiastically supported his philosophy. (Unfortunately, they didn't manage to keep him alive.) But back in those days, religious followers were not the grim-faced, up-tight bunch you seem to be advocating. That stale old Christian model has moved along; the churches that haven't are largely empty.
I am not defending or supporting the drag queen nonsense at a church service, which was probably intended to shock people. (Some people might call that a religious experience, I guess. Others have their "religious experience" via drugs.) And many religions express themselves in unconventional ways. But this would have been carrying it a bit too far, even for me.
PeppermintPatty
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Maybe they felt it wasn’t worth mentioning.
There may have been women dancing half naked. We really don’t know. We weren’t there.
I don't think you were there either. I am not advocating grim-faced, up-tight services. Just not rock concerts. I've found a church I like with a more traditional and liturgical service and I find it very joyous and warm.
It's true that churches are closing. Americans who identify as Christian have gone from 90% to about 66% and that number includes the people in the big rock concert churches. Young people do tend to like them, and then they grow up and quit religion altogether.
McDonalds serves millions. Kids love that salty sugary stuff, but then they grow older and fatter and look for restaurants that serve more nutritious food. There aren't as many of those as there are, McDonalds but that doesn't mean they are worse.
StarSong
Awkward is my Superpower
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The people I know who've left the church haven't done so because of the music or marginalized people attending.
We leave because of the incessant pressure to give more money, our distress at the hypocrisy of the church's actions with that money (astonishingly little goes to help the poor unless it's via overseas missions that are mostly about creating new members), the pressure to proselytize and bring friends to church, and other hypocrisies of pastors and those in leadership positions.
Churches are big businesses - I should know, having been on the finance committee for over a decade. Mega churches are mega businesses.
My kids were all brought up in the church - we went every Sunday and they attended Christian schools. However, far too many pastors care more for their careers (bigger church assingnments = bigger salaries) than their congregation. The higher ups are likewise busy with their own self-preservation and climbing the salary ladder.
My children were deeply disillusioned by the church in their early 20s and never returned - none of my grands are baptized. DH & I left shortly thereafter. If returning for a funeral or wedding, halfway through I remember why I left and can't wait to get out of there. Yes, I miss old friends but not enough to go back.
When you know how the sausage is made it you lose your appetite for it.
I have not at any time in this discussion said or implied that I don't like "marginalized" people attending, and I very much resent the way you've slipped that in there while replying to me. It's the worst sort of slanderous straw man.
I presently belong to a combined Lutheran/Episcopal church with music coming from a loft at the back that is out of sight, and a lesbian bishop, many gay members and members of many different colors.
I have served as church treasurer and know that we give quite a bit to the local food pantry where my husband volunteers. I quit the Methodist where the pastor didn't like to have communion and chose this one because they have it every Sunday. My husband still goes to that UMC Methodist and plays the trumpet in it every week. It's as simple as that, I go where it fits my spiritual needs and he goes where he likes the music and I hope everyone else finds the church for them.
I'll put my liberal credentials up against anyone on this board, I took part in peace marches and civil rights marches while in college, I was kicked out of a sorority and almost out of school for dating a black student in 1966, I was a charter member of NOW in my community and headed a task force that got all the local schools to change their career day curriculum to encourage girls to consider non-traditional careers.
Yet on this board I've been called a racist, lectured about feminist issues, and on this thread been repeatedly told that I should let "marginalized people," in my church like I'm standing at the door turning them away. Just stop it.
StarSong
Awkward is my Superpower
- Location
- Los Angeles Suburbs
I should add the caveat that none of the above tarnished my abiding love for Jesus and deep respect for his extraordinary example of how human beings should live and treat one another.
StarSong
Awkward is my Superpower
- Location
- Los Angeles Suburbs
I was not suggesting you don't like marginalized people and regret that it seems it did. My apologies for my clumsy working.
Thanks. I'm sorry, too. It came too soon after the racist thing and I lost my temper (what I need church for.)
Excelsior!
PeppermintPatty
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Capt Lightning
Well-known Member
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- Historic Buchan, Scotland
One year Mrs. L and DD went to Italy for a holiday and in the course of sightseeing went to look inside a rather grand church. They were stopped at the door by an attendant who said that they weren't appropriately dressed. They asked if Jesus would have turned them away, but it seems that the doorman outranked Jesus.
I doubt if your wife or the doorman knew what Jesus would do in that situation, but the dress codes in Italy are no secret.
The doorman was just doing his job, they are hired by the actual members of the church, to keep the constant stream of irreverent tourists from getting completely out of hand.
No one is asked to dress-up, just not to wear shorts and tank tops:
https://www.romecabs.com/blog/docs/...mple light scarf or,under your dress or skirt.
The doorman was just doing his job, they are hired by the actual members of the church, to keep the constant stream of irreverent tourists from getting completely out of hand.
No one is asked to dress-up, just not to wear shorts and tank tops:
https://www.romecabs.com/blog/docs/...mple light scarf or,under your dress or skirt.
your score card looks pretty impressive to me lady!!
PeppermintPatty
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- Canada
No bare shoulders?
I didnt say it was the same - I said it was the same mentality
I dont have trouble caring about men - I do have trouble with the 'women shouldnt wear what they want because they are responsible for men's actions' mentality - or the reverse, but nobody ever says that about what men wear.
I dont agree at all about the best clothing idea - giving God our best isnt at all related to what we are wearing to do it.