AZ Jim
R.I.P. With Us In Spirit Only
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- SURPRISE, ARIZONA
There Will Always Be Poor People
- Thread starter Lon
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applecruncher
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- Ohio USA
BobF, you seem to be out of touch with what has happened over the past 5 – 10 years. This is not the 60s you refer to, or even the 70s, 80s or 90s.
You seem to feel that the problem is people only want to take high paying jobs. Wow……that’s so off-base and just plain wrong that it boggles the mind. I’m all for personal responsibility, but….wow.
I live in a large city with a decent economy, but I’ve lost count of the places I did business with regularly for years that are now closed (restaurants, small shops, grocery stores not part of a huge chain.) I also know of many people who had good jobs (in this city and also surrounding smaller ones) who were laid off, are too young to retire, and despite constant applying anywhere have not received one offer. Many only get an interview a couple times a year. Some have lost homes and moved in with relatives or friends. Most former employees of those places are now scraping to get by. I promise you – they are NOT turning down jobs left and right waiting for their dream job - which is what you insinuate.
You indicated that you’ve gotten thru tough times by taking what you could get and moving from state to state. Not everyone can just pack up and do that. It takes money to relocate. How are people supposed to get to all those other states if their car has been repossesed? (Pull out a credit card and make an airline reservation for themselves, spouse, and kids?) And once you get to another state you have to have a place to live, utilities, and food to eat – which also costs money. And what happens when they need medical care? Oh, well. Unlike "the 60s" today many employer do credit checks....oh, well.
Reading your posts I'm reminded of comments I've seen al over the internet by people who are financially content who say “The jobs are out there.” Yes, there are some jobs “out there”, but the numbers of applicants are staggering. No one can hire everybody who applies. Some people sniff/sneer and say “McDonald’s is hiring everyday.” Well, McDonalds is NOT hiring everyday and even of they were, they can’t put EVERYBODY on the payroll.
QuickSilver
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- Midwest
ANd still bob... even if someone were to somehow snag two or three minimum wage jobs, what happens to the kids with mom and/or dad gone all those hours? Will people be eager to have their precious tax dollar go toward expanded safe and reliable day care? What about the older kids.. the teens? What happens to supervision and those beloved "family values" with no parent around because they are working 80 or 100 hrs a week just to keep the wolf from the door? It's not and "easy peasy" just get a job thing Bob... there are other problems around that.
Most jobs above minimum wage require college degrees.. or some sort of training or certificate.. How does someone get that if they have no money.. and cannot take time to go back to school because they are trying to support kids? The Right wing had a Bloody blue FIT when Obama suggested we give two years of college or trade school free.. a FIT! So.. let's not educate people.. let's not let them make a living wage... and best of all, lets berate them as lazy pigs because they need assistance.
Most jobs above minimum wage require college degrees.. or some sort of training or certificate.. How does someone get that if they have no money.. and cannot take time to go back to school because they are trying to support kids? The Right wing had a Bloody blue FIT when Obama suggested we give two years of college or trade school free.. a FIT! So.. let's not educate people.. let's not let them make a living wage... and best of all, lets berate them as lazy pigs because they need assistance.
BobF, you seem to be out of touch with what has happened over the past 5 – 10 years. This is not the 60s you refer to, or even the 70s, 80s or 90s.
You seem to feel that the problem is people only want to take high paying jobs. Wow……that’s so off-base and just plain wrong that it boggles the mind. I’m all for personal responsibility, but….wow.
I live in a large city with a decent economy, but I’ve lost count of the places I did business with regularly for years that are now closed (restaurants, small shops, grocery stores not part of a huge chain. Most former employees of those places are now scraping to get by. I promise you – they are NOT turning down jobs left and right waiting for their dream job.
You indicated that you’ve gotten thru tough times by taking what you could get and moving from state to state. Not everyone can just pack up and do that. It takes money to relocate. How are people supposed to get to all those other states if their car has been repossesed? (Pull out a credit card and make an airline reservation for themselves, spouse, and kids?) And once you get to another state you have to have a place to live, utilities, and food to eat – which also costs money. And what happens when they need medical care? Oh, well. Unlike "the 60s" today many employer do credit checks....oh, well.
Reading your posts I'm reminded of comments I've seen al over the internet by people who are financially content who say “The jobs are out there.” Yes, there are some jobs “out there”, but the numbers of applicants are staggering. No one can hire everybody who applies. Some people sniff/sneer and say “McDonald’s is hiring everyday.” Well, McDonalds is NOT hiring everyday and even of they were, they can’t put EVERYBODY on the payroll.
Sorry, but you have totally twisted the idea I was speaking of. Getting a job can be a real hard thing to do. What I don't like is to see and hear of folks that just do not try to keep working and they just sit on their butts and demand better government care. Pretty simple solution is to try to get work.
If a person has a family, they can still take jobs locally or nearby. To travel as I did was not easy. I saved enough money to buy gas and meals and some left for rooms as I worked my way across the country. I did not eat much either. I have not underestimated anything. But when I read of folks wanting the government to give them more while they wait for a job to show up, I do get annoyed. We do give our unemployed far too much these days. These items were never intended to make do for all things. Why should a car be repossessed? If newer model and not paid off, sell the thing and then go buy the best cash deal you can find. I have only had car debt once when I retired and bought my wife a new Mercury with my retirement bonus check. She had driven older and not so pretty cars for years as she went shopping or took the kids to schools and doctors. My travel car was a old 1960 Vauxhall, paid for and well up in mileage.
I am not saying it is pretty when out of work. I am saying that a person should not be crying about his situation and should not be just sitting and wishing for bigger government hand outs. Nothing wrong with my idea at all. Not out of date or confused at all. And after all the large cities I have lived in over the years I immediately went to he country for my retirement. A much better place to live than any city I know of. Chicago area is not to my liking at all. Los Angeles, San Diego, San Jose, all in California are no longer good for anybody to live in. Their prices are way too high for average workers to be able to pay for. My $14,500 new house in 1960 now sells of $359,000 to $450,000 these days. It is a crazy world.
BobF, you seem to be out of touch with what has happened over the past 5 – 10 years. This is not the 60s you refer to, or even the 70s, 80s or 90s.
You seem to feel that the problem is people only want to take high paying jobs. Wow……that’s so off-base and just plain wrong that it boggles the mind. I’m all for personal responsibility, but….wow.
I live in a large city with a decent economy, but I’ve lost count of the places I did business with regularly for years that are now closed (restaurants, small shops, grocery stores not part of a huge chain. Most former employees of those places are now scraping to get by. I promise you – they are NOT turning down jobs left and right waiting for their dream job.
You indicated that you’ve gotten thru tough times by taking what you could get and moving from state to state. Not everyone can just pack up and do that. It takes money to relocate. How are people supposed to get to all those other states if their car has been repossesed? (Pull out a credit card and make an airline reservation for themselves, spouse, and kids?) And once you get to another state you have to have a place to live, utilities, and food to eat – which also costs money. And what happens when they need medical care? Oh, well. Unlike "the 60s" today many employer do credit checks....oh, well.
Reading your posts I'm reminded of comments I've seen al over the internet by people who are financially content who say “The jobs are out there.” Yes, there are some jobs “out there”, but the numbers of applicants are staggering. No one can hire everybody who applies. Some people sniff/sneer and say “McDonald’s is hiring everyday.” Well, McDonalds is NOT hiring everyday and even of they were, they can’t put EVERYBODY on the payroll.
Yes in some respects times are different because the big difference now seems to be an economy saturated with legal and illegal immigrants that are gobbling up many of those entry level or so called minimum wage jobs so it is tougher to "pick something up". Along with corporate America making what used to be full time now part time. But as someone who has gotten laid off several times over the decades and millennia and had to take lower paying jobs or realized things would never be the same I never felt entitled to a career. And that's the big difference now a days because many who got laid off over the last 10 years were from a generation promised or told to think career-live to work and not work to live. In others sometimes you will just have to take "a" job for money and not the resume-many can't handle that.
I know a couple of mid level managers who got laid off and the one that took a couple of part-time jobs eventually found 'a' fulltime job and bought a house. The other refuses to take "a" job and literally would rather beg for money scarfing up money anyway they can living like a gypsy-not homeless but a gypsy. They got 99 weeks as PLANNED then when yet another extension did not come through they were left scrambling. 6 years after the crash and the longest job they held was 3 months and they quit because of shift work that interfered with leisure time-this was white collar worker, not someone coming off of welfare. They get some temporary/occasional physical work you would think they had to shovel coal, poop and crack rocks all on the same day. And this contractor work that contractors make a 30-40 year career out of. No sympathy here. But they were a product of the post 1960s/70s hippy public school system which pushed career, do what you want, you should enjoy your job etc. But this creates job applicants and employees with an extremely limited comfort zone.
Sometimes you do have to settle for "a" job or two and not a resume builder or fortune. It's that sense of entitlement to a career that's as troubling as anything.
applecruncher
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- Ohio USA
Nope, I haven't twisted anything at all. I don''t need to. Your reply post ^^ is further proof that you just don't get it.
Surely an exaggerated setup you just made. Union jobs are all above minimum wages. At least I thought so. And raising minimum wages higher as some places are doing will only cause prices to go up too. Businesses to need to make profits or go out of business, as someone has already stated to be the reason they can not find a job.
And just what am I to get? I am saying that nobody should just sit on their bum and expect the government to pay their way.
Now just what is wrong with that idea. It is all I am pushing, nothing more, nothing less. Sit on your bum and you will get nothing of value for the future.
QuickSilver
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- Midwest
So your solution is for everyone to just go out and get a union job? I thought that the idea was to break unions? Isn't that one of the Republican goals? Do away with those blood sucking unions so Corporations can make more profit by paying lower wages with less benefits.. Can you REALLY not see that you have just contradicted yourself in this single post?
You are an expert at twisting everything others say. No I did not say go get a union job, just pointing out that many jobs do pay more than minimum wages.
I fail to see how I contradicted myself. It is you that is being contrary and unreal.
Warrigal
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- Location
- Sydney, Australia
Actually, Bob might be onto something. More people joining unions could counterbalance the clout of greedy employers and heedless politicians. In OZ during the Great Depression there was a group known as the Unemployed Workers Union and as well as being a mutual support association they were also large enough to carry some weight. They were certainly ready and able to turn up at protests and to support striking workers.
Thank you Warrigal. Interesting too that you mentioned the great depression. I assume you are speaking of an Australian depression. I remember my father during the US great depression and things he did to feed the family. He had a job that would call him for 2 or 3 days a week, when they had orders. So he also did other things to bring money or food or whatever of value into the house. One trip I remember was when he went out to a farm to help bring in potatoes. He spent the day there, the wives help put together some food for all, there were many workers doing the potato fields. Back then most of the work was done with shovels and hand labor.
Anyway, at the end of the work day there was the evening meal the ladies put together. Then before we went home dad put us in the back seat, mom was on the right seat, dad put potatoe bags on the fenders of the Model A Ford coupe, and back into town we went.
No wages that I remember, but we did have three or four bags of potatoes to eat.
When broke it is necessary to do what you can do to benefit the family.
Anyway, at the end of the work day there was the evening meal the ladies put together. Then before we went home dad put us in the back seat, mom was on the right seat, dad put potatoe bags on the fenders of the Model A Ford coupe, and back into town we went.
No wages that I remember, but we did have three or four bags of potatoes to eat.
When broke it is necessary to do what you can do to benefit the family.
QuickSilver
SF VIP
- Location
- Midwest
So you were just making the statement that Union jobs pay more than minimum wage... NOT offering that as feasible solution.. just saying that.. Oh.. ok... Yes the few union jobs that are out there DO pay more than minimum wage... Should we give unions more ability to organize and get people to join? Should fast food workers be allowed to unionize in order to bargain for higher wages and benefits? If that is what you think.. then I agree with you.
I made my statement and you have just once more changed what I had said.
Yes I have been a union member on many occasions. No problem at all. Just hated all the union restrictions on changing assignments and trying to move to a higher paid position or what ever I was looking to.
Yes I have been working in a number of non union jobs and really liked that way better than in a union. If I wanted a different assignment I would ask my manager. Sometimes no and sometimes yes. Maybe same wages or different wages. But it was more free than I felt when in the unions jobs.
In the US these days, many states now disallow union only jobs. I think that is a better way to go. If you like unions, join, but you don't have to join if you prefer not. I think all states should be like that. I noticed lots of industries have move into those not mandatory to have unions states. I notice Detroit has lost many of its jobs to other states. Ohio is still a union state, but there has been some moves to change that to not mandatory for a job.
I have just answered your questions. But for a refresher, no mandatory unions should be allowed but yes unions would have the option to organize if they can get enough folks to join. Each year then should be a renewal vote, to allow unions or not, on that particular location.
Warrigal
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- Sydney, Australia
The Great Depression may have started in America but it went global.
One of my grandfathers worked for the postal service so his family never went without, even though his wages were cut. My other grandfather was a plasterer and with the collapse of the building industry he was out of work early and not able to get a job until it was over. Being married with children he could not get the dole because to do that you had to move from town to town looking for work. The men who did this were called swag men or swaggies after the swags (rolled up blankets) that they had slung over their shoulders that contained all their goods and food. These men tramped across Australia looking for work and would chop wood for a feed and a bit of shelter for the night. I wouldn't want to see a return to those days.
My grandparents managed differently. Grandma took in babies who were too sick to be adopted and cared for them until they were well enough. For this service she was paid an allowance, the only source of cash that was regularly available. Granddad grew vegetables in the back garden and bartered them for other necessities. This course of action is not available to city dwellers but people did what they could such as mending shoes, cleaning windows etc. for the people who had jobs. In most cases, the work was made available as a form of charity and the money paid was much less than market value.
Landlords evicted people who could not pay rent and their possessions were unceremoniously thrown out on the street. The families of the unemployed were often very malnourished and sickness was prevalent - antibiotics were not available and doctors were too expensive for many.
Because of what happened during these times social reforms have been put into place to make sure that there is a safety net for people who fall on such hard times. We do not want to see any more children with rickets, men with lung diseases such as TB and pneumonia and anaemic women worn down by grinding hard work and poverty. The safety net includes income support, affordable medicine and medical treatment, and public housing where the rent is calculated on income, not market prices.
These reforms were and still are necessary to create a humane and civilised society. The extent to which they are necessary is a reflection on the leaders, not the impoverished.
Butterfly
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- Albuquerque, New Mexico USA
Anyone who thinks benefits are "handed out like candy" should try to actually get them. Two years ago when my niece (39 year old single mom with two minor children) was diagnosed with terminal cancer, she had to quit her jobs and lost not only her income, but her healthcare coverage as well. No way could she afford COBRA (expensive as hell). Because of the job I used to have, I had some experience and familiarity with getting benefits for people so I took on the job of getting what benefits she was entitled to, in order to keep her and her children from being put out on the street to starve.
Anybody who thinks this is easy is fooling themselves. As to the healthcare benefits (Medicaid) there was a social worker at the hospital who was wonderful in helping us. There was a heap of paperwork, which of course gets summarily returned to you if anything is blank or isn't filled out to their liking. Usually there isn't an explanation, so you get to just try to figure out what the problem is and resubmit. First we had to get Medicaid for her, and then for the children. We jumped through many, many hoops. AND, we had to apply for Social Security disability for mom, so she could have a little money. THAT required another heap of paperwork, and copies of a zillion medical records. After answering about a million really dumb questions, like why she couldn't work with terminal colon cancer, we were successful, and she got the princely sum of about $700 per month. Try keeping an apartment and clothing for children, plus school supplies, etc., with that! And of course she lost her car. We also applied for food stamps and more papers, documentation, and so forth and we finally got food assistance for them. All of this took somewhere around 8 months, and in the meantime family was helping all we could. She finally had to move in with her oldest son, because there was still no way she could manage on what she was getting, especially as she got weaker. She died early this year, basically in abject poverty.
The safety net that is out there is first off, inadequate for anyone who has had a setback that prevents them from working, or from holding down a full time job. Secondly, it takes forever to actually GET into that safety net. (SS Disability was actually speeded up (if you can call it that!!) when SS became convinced she was, in fact, terminally ill.) Section 8 housing has a waiting list so long that our local office is no longer taking applications. And the other benefits are not instant, nor are they easy to get (especially for someone who is ill and can't get around, or who has no transportation, because they require you to go to various locations to apply, etc.), nor are they sufficient to live on. Had my niece not had family standing by and helping however we could, she could, indeed have ended up dying on the street, and her children could have starved.
Everybody who is poor is not so because they "won't try to take responsibility."
Anybody who thinks this is easy is fooling themselves. As to the healthcare benefits (Medicaid) there was a social worker at the hospital who was wonderful in helping us. There was a heap of paperwork, which of course gets summarily returned to you if anything is blank or isn't filled out to their liking. Usually there isn't an explanation, so you get to just try to figure out what the problem is and resubmit. First we had to get Medicaid for her, and then for the children. We jumped through many, many hoops. AND, we had to apply for Social Security disability for mom, so she could have a little money. THAT required another heap of paperwork, and copies of a zillion medical records. After answering about a million really dumb questions, like why she couldn't work with terminal colon cancer, we were successful, and she got the princely sum of about $700 per month. Try keeping an apartment and clothing for children, plus school supplies, etc., with that! And of course she lost her car. We also applied for food stamps and more papers, documentation, and so forth and we finally got food assistance for them. All of this took somewhere around 8 months, and in the meantime family was helping all we could. She finally had to move in with her oldest son, because there was still no way she could manage on what she was getting, especially as she got weaker. She died early this year, basically in abject poverty.
The safety net that is out there is first off, inadequate for anyone who has had a setback that prevents them from working, or from holding down a full time job. Secondly, it takes forever to actually GET into that safety net. (SS Disability was actually speeded up (if you can call it that!!) when SS became convinced she was, in fact, terminally ill.) Section 8 housing has a waiting list so long that our local office is no longer taking applications. And the other benefits are not instant, nor are they easy to get (especially for someone who is ill and can't get around, or who has no transportation, because they require you to go to various locations to apply, etc.), nor are they sufficient to live on. Had my niece not had family standing by and helping however we could, she could, indeed have ended up dying on the street, and her children could have starved.
Everybody who is poor is not so because they "won't try to take responsibility."
This is what worries me about the displaced worker assistance or TAA attached to the recent fast track legislation. There is no way government assistance is going to replace a 20-30 dollar an hour union job with benefits. Just look some of the job placement training now there are record numbers not even in the workforce which says something about the effectiveness of many of these programs.
Warrigal
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- Sydney, Australia
Thanks for sharing that Butterfly. I'm sorry to hear of your loss. How are the children getting on now?
QuickSilver
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- Midwest
What you say is absolutely true.. I have first hand knowledge of how difficult it is to get assistance and the hoops one has to jump through. The notion that these things are passed out like candy comes from people who have not experienced the reality.
Butterfly
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- Albuquerque, New Mexico USA
Absolutely, and people who believe you can easily get benefits, or that they are anywhere near enough to actually live on (even very frugally), have, as someone said above "drunk the kool-aid." Everyone who believes those things should go work in a poverty law office or a legal aid for the homeless office for about a week, and they'd change their tune. It is really VERY hard out there. The truly homeless can't just go out and get a job, any job, like many people can -- they lack an address, a phone number, decent clothes and a way to even clean up. Who's going to watch the children of a homeless person while s/he looks for work? And the length of time it takes to get any benefits at all -- you could starve while waiting for them. AND, how are your going to receive them? most benefits require a bank account for automatic deposit -- how's a homeless person going to open a bank account? AND, where will the helping agencies send notifications, questions, etc. It is really hard for a lot of people. Hell, it was hard for ME, and I had a car, a power of attorney, and knew what I was doing, and we had an address and a phone number.
Easy safety net, my rear end!!
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Butterfly
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- Location
- Albuquerque, New Mexico USA
About as well as can be expected, I guess. They are living with their older sibling (the one with whom my niece stayed during most of the last of her illness). He is trying, through an attorney I know, to get appointed as their legal guardian so he can get them into school this fall, get medical care, etc. It's another huge pile of worms, papers, and hoops, not to mention court system backlogs and delays. Then we can get what benefits are available for them so he can take care of them. You have to be a legal guardian to apply for benefits for them, and their mother's benefits died with her, and there's no way the sibling can provide for the children in the long run on what he makes right now. And he also has a wife and a newborn. So they are definitely going to need help. Their mother left nothing for them. There's no question they'll qualify for some assistance and we'll apply for it as soon as he is their legal guardian.
This demonstrates how people can be thrown into poverty by no fault of their own, and haven't a way to get out.
QuickSilver
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- Midwest
This is a straw man that the Right wing has brainwashed people into believing. People are getting paid for laying on their asses and are living high off the hog and eating lobster on the tax payer dime. That one and the myth that illegal immigrants are handed a Link card the minute they cross the boarder, and they are taken to the nearest hospital and treated for free... all on the taxpayer's dime. People, as you can see right here in this forum actually believe all this, and there is no convincing them otherwise. Throw in some religious and gun issues and that has been how the GOP has been able to get people to vote against their own financial interests and those of the average American. It's really been well planned and thought out..
Unfortunately unions have been losing their power and numbers for decades in the US. Two straws broke the camels back-The federal air traffic controllers union went on strike and were then fired and permanently replaced in the early 1980s. Ironic over the years that many of their replacements have many of the same complaints. Then the overrated (in the early 1980s) and cheaper Japanese auto imports undercut the US Autoworker who was then considered over paid and outdated. By the mid to late 80s a union was considered overrated and unnecessary.
The unions got a temporary but insignificant boost after the economic collapse of 2008 with the Occupy Wall Street movement and new administration in office. But their protests turned ugly before educational in many cities.
You can have all the trade unions in the world but there still needs to be work & projects for the trade to be practiced. Which come backs to educating and producing a versatile high school graduate so they can change careers or find different jobs as needed.
AZ Jim
R.I.P. With Us In Spirit Only
- Location
- SURPRISE, ARIZONA
Just as the statement "we'll always have poor" is true so is it that we will always have those who shrug it off as business as usual instead of at least "feeling" it, caring.