Is it wrong for religious organizations to indoctrinate young children.

[bobcat]

Is it wrong for Boy Scouts to indoctrinate children?
Should children be trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean and reverent?

Is it wrong for schools to indoctrinate children?
Public primary schools were created by states to reinforce obedience among the masses and maintain social order, rather than serve as a tool for upward social mobility, suggests a study from the University of California San Diego. Children are like sponges, and politicians thought that primary schools could shape behavior by instilling fear of punishment for misbehavior, or conversely, by promoting rewards for proper behavior. The mere act of attending school every day, sitting still, not speaking out of turn and following schedules, routines and rituals, like marching in silence from classroom to breakroom, would make individuals internalize from a young age what constituted good manners and civil behavior.

Is it wrong for [xxxxx and xx etc etc] to indoctrinate children?

Pick your poison

I was in the Boy Scouts, and I don't recall them ever teaching a doctrine, as in something that the Boy Scouts believed as a religious ideology. To my knowledge, the BSA doesn’t have a single “doctrine” in the traditional sense, but they do have a set of guiding principles and values that shape their programs and activities. We learned many helpful things, but I never sensed any doctrine being presented.

Perhaps I wasn't paying close attention in school, but I never sensed it there either, although I realize not all schools are the same.

 

[bobcat]

This thread was started very shortly after its previous incarnation ("Cults") was shut down by the moderator. I was pretty sure we weren't supposed to try to bypass that by starting a new thread.

I was made aware that the reason for that thread being closed is because a couple individuals went off-topic and turned it into a feud.
This thread is not a continuation of that thread. It just sparked another thought for discussion. Nothing more.

 

[Naturally]

I was in the Boy Scouts, and I don't recall them ever teaching a doctrine, as in something that the Boy Scouts believed as a religious ideology. To my knowledge, the BSA doesn’t have a single “doctrine” in the traditional sense, but they do have a set of guiding principles and values that shape their programs and activities. We learned many helpful things, but I never sensed any doctrine being presented.

Perhaps I wasn't paying close attention in school, but I never sensed it there either, although I realize not all schools are the same.

Boy Scout Oath or Promise​

On my honor, I will do my best
To do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law;
To help other people at all times;
To keep myself physically strong, mentally awake and morally straight.

I already mentioned the 12 tenets of the Scout Law in my last post. Scouts even have a hand gesture performed along with the Oath or Promise. Hand gestures are found in religion too. Maybe you were just in scouts for camping, hiking and learning many helpful things? Dunno

 

[Warrigal]

Unfortunately, you were in the wrong church. There are the good, the bad, and the ugly churches.
The best ones are good but none are perfect because no people are perfect. I'm sorry you had that experience.

I agree with Lara. To my mind, doctrine and teaching are synonyms. It is a question of how and what we teach our children. My father taught me to love the bushland and to care for it. This was a lesson taught as he took my sister and I on bushwalks around Sydney. As indoctrination goes, it was very successful and I indoctrinated quite a number of children when I was a leader of an outward bound youth club.

I was indoctrinated by the second wave of feminism when I became fully aware of the extent of the limitations placed on women and girls, to their detriment and to the advantage of boys and men. As a teacher of girls I tried very hard to help them overcome limitations imposed on them by others. You could say that I indoctrinated them and you would be correct. It is also correct that I guided them towards self fulfilment.

However, this meaning of the words doctrine and indoctrination is not what most people think of when they hear the word indoctrination. At the extreme end, indoctrination can include brain washing that involves programming people to abandon reason and accept dangerous beliefs and ideologies. Religious cults and political organisations such as Jim Jones' Peoples Temple and Hitler's youth movement rely heavily on mind control that is detrimental.

A weekly Sunday School lesson can be harmful if the subject matter is not carefully dealt with. Fear should never be used to ram home the message. In former times school lessons were delivered with severity and fear of punishment. Terror has no place in church, home or school, even if the intention is to teach a child something of importance.

As a mother, grandmother, school teacher and Sunday school teacher I have done my best to inculcate children with learning and positive values. I have never demanded that they accept any of it without question, but nevertheless, I could be accused of indoctrination of the young.

 

[CallMeKate]

From the Boy Scouts of America website:

Faith Traditions​

Young people need faith. There is abundant evidence that children benefit from the moral compass provided by religious tradition. We acknowledge that faith can become an important part of a child’s identity. Each of the major faiths breeds hope, optimism, compassion, and a belief in a better tomorrow. Scouting encourages each young person to begin a spiritual journey through the practice of his or her faith tradition. One of the key tenets of Scouting is “duty to God.” While Scouting does not define religious belief for its members, it has been adopted by and works with youth programs of all major faiths.

https://www.scouting.org/about/why-scouting/

 

[Gardenlover]

I'm not seeing this or any other thread as an attempt to "change" anyone else's opinion. Such an expectation would be naive and...exactly what would the point be?
Sounds to me that the OP is just soliciting member's opinions as an intellectual exercise.

I think math would be a better intellectual exercise.

 

[Warrigal]

A.K.A. trolling.

Look again at the many and varied responses.
This thread has stimulated discussion which IMO is exactly what a forum is for.

 

[dilettante]

Look again at the many and varied responses.
This thread has stimulated discussion which IMO is exactly what a forum is for.

Many and varied?

Most of them fall into basically one camp. Any attempt to discuss this honestly would be met with scorn and hostility.

Earlier I was leaning toward this being up to the parents to decide. Now I'm not sure at all. I'm even more convinced this thread is here to bypass the closure of the earlier one.

 

[Warrigal]

I think math would be a better intellectual exercise.

OK. I'll bite.

In your opinion, what is the meaning, purpose and value of a Mobius strip?

I cannot wait to hear your response.

 

[Naturally]

For moral and spiritual guidance, religion can be useful knowledge.
Of course as in all things, one will see and find what they are looking for ... and put labels on it.

 

[Naturally]

@bobcat maybe as a child in scouting, you didn't take seriously your promise to on your honor, do your duty to god. A promise made with hand raised and three fingers in the air.

Maybe you took from scouting those things you found useful. Many do the same with religion ... even children.

Just curious, but which church sponsored your troop?

EDIT: Some may not remember from scouting what those 3 raised fingers represent ...
In his book, Scouting for Boys, Robert Baden-Powell chose the three-finger salute for Scouts to represent the three aspects of the Scout Promise:

1. Honor God and Country
2. Help Others
3. Obey the Scout Law

 

[Mr. Ed]

https://www.seniorforums.com/conversations/

• General Discussions

Is it wrong for religious organizations to indoctrinate young children. No but it can inherently difficult to over come biases and poor judgement by the caregivers and parents.​

 

[bobcat]

Boy Scout Oath or Promise​

On my honor, I will do my best
To do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law;
To help other people at all times;
To keep myself physically strong, mentally awake and morally straight.

I already mentioned the 12 tenets of the Scout Law in my last post. Scouts even have a hand gesture performed along with the Oath or Promise. Hand gestures are found in religion too. Maybe you were just in scouts for camping, hiking and learning many helpful things? Dunno

Seems pretty benign to me like the pledge of allegiance to the flag. No lasting damage here. Can't speak for others.

 

[Radrook]

I think the more you force religion on some people, they rebel. Leave the children alone and let them live a normal childhood. If they want to get into all of the religious crap when they get older, then that's fine. It's their choice. It's just like some families forcing their racial hatred on their children. Let the children grow up believing in what they want to believe in.

Similarly, a religious person might strongly recommend leaving children alone with the brainwashing abiogenesis crap until children can make their own minds. Yet, it is being constantly shoved down their gullible throats during their formal education years as if it were an indisputable fact, when it definitely is not..

BTW I totally agree with the your anti racial hatred opinion.

 

[bobcat]

@bobcat maybe as a child in scouting, you didn't take seriously your promise to on your honor, do your duty to god. A promise made with hand raised and three fingers in the air.

Maybe you took from scouting those things you found useful. Many do the same with religion ... even children.

Just curious, but which church sponsored your troop?

EDIT: Some may not remember from scouting what those 3 raised fingers represent ...
In his book, Scouting for Boys, Robert Baden-Powell chose the three-finger salute for Scouts to represent the three aspects of the Scout Promise:

1. Honor God and Country
2. Help Others
3. Obey the Scout Law

I don't recall any church sponsoring the troop I was in. I just admired the knowledge of the scout leader showing us skills like tying knots, hiking skills, boxing, other activities, and doing projects. As for the oath, I do remember it, but never heard any doctrine directed our way. It was mostly just about developing our potential.

 

[carouselsilver]

I don't know who they are, but I am interested to get your feelings about it at this stage in life. Do you feel it was beneficial, detrimental, or really made no difference?
Btw, there are many religious organizations with their own schools, and even colleges. However, I suppose Catholics are the more well known because they are one of the largest.

In my personal experience, I found religion to be detrimental. As a small child, I didn't understand why we had to attend church, and I didn't understand the proceedings. When my parents divorced, my mother became fanatical about religion. She would keep us on our knees doing novenas while other children played outside. I grew to resent and avoid any kind of indoctrination.

As an adult, I came to my own understanding of spirituality, and no longer feel resentment towards religion. I just have no use for it.

 

[Naturally]

The Scout Oath or Promise and the pledge of allegiance to the flag are just word salad
And religion is merely indoctrination
I could be wrong but the impression I get is nothing is greater than "Bob" ... and that's okay my friend

 

[Radrook]

Unfortunately, you were in the wrong church. There are the good, the bad, and the ugly churches.
The best ones are good but none are perfect because no people are perfect. I'm sorry you had that experience.

True. All religious denominations have flaws. none are perfect. However, some are notoriously bad because they seriously deviate from what they claim to be teaching. For example, Christianity teaches that we don't need to always be worrying about salvation because Christ's Ransom Sacrifice atoned for our sins.

John 14:27
27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.​

Now, if a denomination has us worrying continuously on whether God will suddenly destroy us or not because of our falling short and angering him, then something is obviously seriously wrong. Unfortunately, this is exactly what a certain denomination does, and it can make a person's life a veritable ordeal.

 

[Nathan]

I don't recall any church sponsoring the troop I was in. I just admired the knowledge of the scout leader showing us skills like tying knots, hiking skills, boxing, other activities, and doing projects. As for the oath, I do remember it, but never heard any doctrine directed our way. It was mostly just about developing our potential.

The Cub Scout/Boy Scout troops I belonged to held their meetings in various churches, but it was a community thing and there was no particular affiliation between the 2 organizations, explicit or implied.

 

[Naturally]

The Cub Scout/Boy Scout troops I belonged to held their meetings in various churches, but it was a community thing and there was no particular affiliation between the 2 organizations, explicit or implied.

But you did make a promise on your honor to do your duty to god ... whomever or whatever that may be to you I guess
The two finger Cub Scout salute was only intended to emulate the pricked ears of a Wolf
Apparently the Boy Scouts three finger salute tried to get a bit more serious and specific

 

[Nathan]

But you did make a promise on your honor to do your duty to god ... whomever or whatever that may be to you I guess

Yes, but again that was within the Boy Scout organization and did not have any connection to the particular church where Scout meetings were held.

 

[Naturally]

Yes, but again that was within the Boy Scout organization and did not have any connection to the particular church where Scout meetings were held.

I was in Troop 29. It was sponsored by a Baptist Church. I think there MAY have been one or two young fellas from the community at large but as with other church sponsored Troops in the area, most of the boys were members of that church where troop meetings were held. The scout masters of each troop certainly were. Troop meetings were never held on a "church day", rather we met in the church each Tuesday evening. Good times.

EDIT: I don't remember prayer associated with Boy Scouts either (may have been, don't remember) but god was certainly "sprinkled" in there. We did do a pledge of allegiance to the flag and at summer camp we had colors each morning and evening ... god and country.

So maybe if I took anything from scouting it is that a belief and service to god (and country) is not an indoctrination eh?

My scout masters were WWII veterans. "There are no atheists in foxholes"

 

[Gardenlover]

OK. I'll bite.

In your opinion, what is the meaning, purpose and value of a Mobius strip?

I cannot wait to hear your response.

The mobius strip is much like this thread and others of its ilk, you can never clearly distinguish in which direction the correct answer lays.
I guess the simple purpose of the mind bending tool is to show that many things are more than single faceted or one dimensional.

 

[chic]

I went to a Catholic school, taught by priests and nuns, do you really think they are not going to mention Catholicism?

That's what I went through at my parents' insistence. It tortured me for years until I grew up enough to just say no.

 

[Gardenlover]

Could the current of this conversation be applied to other world views as well? Capitalism verse socialism for example.