Another religious thread of speculation

Knight said:
For those with blind faith there would have to be an edge. Is it infinite no way to know yet, but science is pushing to find out.
If infinite well it's no mystery what that would mean.
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One would expect to be able to trace the point in space in which the Big Bang explosion happened (if it did happen). That place would give us the location of the center of the universe. From that point we could begin to trace it outward.

But no. Science says that there IS NO CENTER of the universe! Are they just saying that matter has the same density as far as we can see? But doesn't that just tell us that the universe is very big?

*IF* the Big Bang happened, *THEN* there is an edge to the universe, to where it is expanding into the void, which it needs in order to expand. That's what my three brain cells tell me. If I'm wrong I hope someone will correct me in a way I can understand.,
 

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gruntlabor said:
One would expect to be able to trace the point in space in which the Big Bang explosion happened (if it did happen). That place would give us the location of the center of the universe. From that point we could begin to trace it outward.

But no. Science says that there IS NO CENTER of the universe! Are they just saying that matter has the same density as far as we can see? But doesn't that just tell us that the universe is very big?

*IF* the Big Bang happened, *THEN* there is an edge to the universe. That's what my three brain cells tell me. If I'm wrong I hope someone will correct me in a way I can understand.
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I can imagine the Big Bang happening in a void that has no end. Which is the universe? The Big Bang phenomena, or what it happened in?
 
HermitHogan said:
Scientists believe the universe is about 93 billion light-years in diameter. This measurement covers the "observable universe" — the part we can measure from Earth. There may be more to it that we are currently unable to measure.
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The measurable universe is not the universe. Scientists should always clarify that. Some scientists call the measurable universe 'the cosmos'.
 

bobcat said:
I have pondered this, and here is my current view.
It makes sense to me that whatever immense energy that spawned the universe, that energy became the universe and everything in it (Including us and nature). You can call that energy God if it suits you, but whatever ......

There is the temptation to imbue that energy with God-like attributes (Omniscience, omnipotence, etc...), but I see no evidence of that or even a plan. It's also possible that the same energy that gave birth to the universe is not only in the universe, but also even far greater. Perhaps we are more of a simulation or (gulp) an ant farm for entertainment or curiosity.

That being said, I do see some order in the universe as well as clues. We just need to decipher them as best we can.
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You have described the god of Spinoza.
 
Paco Dennis said:
I can imagine the Big Bang happening in a void that has no end. Which is the universe? The Big Bang phenomena, or what it happened in?
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It DID happen in a void (if it happened)! That the void has no end is still the question.

The universe IS the Big Bang phenomena (if it happened). From a tiny cell the universe exploded into the void. And the question is (whether before or after the Big Bang) 'Does the void have an edge?'

And by the way, outside the universe would be a very strange place. For one thing there would be no time.
 
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gruntlabor said:
A big question to be answered is:
Is there an edge to the universe? Or is it infinite?
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Inept said:
Irrelevant questions, considering we know nothing. It's like asking if Tralfamadore is closer to the earth than Tramtaria and saying it's a big question to be answered.
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Paco Dennis said:
What is this universe we are existing in? No one knows, but most all of us wonder. So all questions are relevant, and none of them can be answered....
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They are questions worthy of thought but they are not relevant. The specific point here is the subject of an “edge”. What sort of “edge” would it be? Can we define it? Would it be a wafer-thin demarcation between light and darkness? Could we stand with one foot in the light and the other foot in the dark? Would we fall into it by some sort of gravity? Or would this “edge” be a wall or dome? That would not qualify as an "edge" but in that case, would we try to pierce it to see what is on the other side? I can already hear the Theists exclaiming, “Yes! Yes! The gate to heaven!”
 
gruntlabor said:
It DID happen in a void (if it happened)! That the void has no end is still the question.

The universe IS the Big Bang phenomena (if it happened). From a tiny cell the universe exploded into the void. And the question is (whether before or after the Big Bang, 'Does the void have an edge?'

And by the way, outside the universe would be a very strange place. For one thing there would be no time.
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You have a wonderful imagination!! I can conceive of a timeless, spaceless void. No begin, or end, start, or finish. Not even "isness". When we get that absent of phenomena, anything is possible. :)
 
Inept said:
They are questions worthy of thought but they are not relevant. The specific point here is the subject of an “edge”. What sort of “edge” would it be? Can we define it? Would it be a wafer-thin demarcation between light and darkness? Could we stand with one foot in the light and the other foot in the dark? Would we fall into it by some sort of gravity? Or would this “edge” be a wall or dome? That would not qualify as an "edge" but in that case, would we try to pierce it to see what is on the other side? I can already hear the Theists exclaiming, “Yes! Yes! The gate to heaven!”
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OK, I see your viewpoint.
 
gruntlabor said:
You have described the god of Spinoza.
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Perhaps to some degree. I don't think we can know if there are any limits or boundaries or even to know if the attributes of this energy is infinite. To me, it is the elementary fabric of everything, both detectable, and undetectable. I think all the energy that is dispersed throughout the universe, both in the form of matter or energy, are all essentially the same.
 
Inept said:
They are questions worthy of thought but they are not relevant. The specific point here is the subject of an “edge”. What sort of “edge” would it be? Can we define it? Would it be a wafer-thin demarcation between light and darkness? Could we stand with one foot in the light and the other foot in the dark? Would we fall into it by some sort of gravity? Or would this “edge” be a wall or dome? That would not qualify as an "edge" but in that case, would we try to pierce it to see what is on the other side? I can already hear the Theists exclaiming, “Yes! Yes! The gate to heaven!”
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There is no edge to the universe. An edge would imply that something exists outside of the universe. It is meaningless to talk about non-existence. When the universe expands, it does not expand into "nothing." It simply expands period. Microwave background radiation (static) is the same in all directions--there is no center to the universe, no starting point.
 
When my son was four he wrote a book, in pictures. I still have it. In it, there is a little boy who is lonely. Where the boy came from I don't know. So, the boy takes a large domed bottle and invents dinosaurs. They make him happy for awhile, but don't touch his heart in the long run. So he empties the bottle and invents people. The people make him laugh. He keeps this bottle.

When he first showed me this it sounded like a Genesis story. Where did it come from? He didn't get it from me. I anxiously asked his Pre-K teacher. No, he didn't get it from class.

Anyway, it has God outside the universe
 
Inept said:
They are questions worthy of thought but they are not relevant. The specific point here is the subject of an “edge”. What sort of “edge” would it be? Can we define it? Would it be a wafer-thin demarcation between light and darkness? Could we stand with one foot in the light and the other foot in the dark? Would we fall into it by some sort of gravity? Or would this “edge” be a wall or dome? That would not qualify as an "edge" but in that case, would we try to pierce it to see what is on the other side? I can already hear the Theists exclaiming, “Yes! Yes! The gate to heaven!”
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The edge, the end, the thing as opposed to what may be outside of the thing.
For simplicity's sake I think of it as if the universe (the void and all the results of the Big Bang) was placed into, confined to a container.
 
bobcat said:
Omniscience, omnipotence, etc...), but I see no evidence of that or even a plan. It's also possible that the same energy that gave birth to the universe is not only in the universe, but also even far greater.
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I was with you this far but a simulation? Of what .. another simulation? If there is anything real why wouldn’t it be us?
 
MarkD said:
I was with you this far but a simulation? Of what .. another simulation? If there is anything real why wouldn’t it be us?
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I'm not saying I believe we are living in a simulation, but it is a possibility that, so far, can't be ruled out. We wouldn't know, and everything would seem real to us according to the parameters of the simulation (Laws of physics, flow of energy, speed of light limitation, etc...). The things that science can't find an explanation for would just be unexplained mysteries we keep searching for.

When you are dreaming, it is a simulation (Not reality), but your brain can't distinguish the difference. It can seem as real as in the waking world. A simulation would be the same way. It would be like watching a movie, only you would be part of the movie. Again, it's just as possible as a God existing, or perhaps it could be even both.

There is lots of reading on whether we live in a simulation, and some claim to even have proof, but I choose to remain a skeptic of those claims. Besides, what if it was true? It still wouldn't change for me anyway.
 
bobcat said:
I'm not saying I believe we are living in a simulation, but it is a possibility that, so far, can't be ruled out. We wouldn't know, and everything would seem real to us according to the parameters of the simulation (Laws of physics, flow of energy, speed of light limitation, etc...). The things that science can't find an explanation for would just be unexplained mysteries we keep searching for.

When you are dreaming, it is a simulation (Not reality), but your brain can't distinguish the difference. It can seem as real as in the waking world. A simulation would be the same way. It would be like watching a movie, only you would be part of the movie. Again, it's just as possible as a God existing, or perhaps it could be even both.

There is lots of reading on whether we live in a simulation, and some claim to even have proof, but I choose to remain a skeptic of those claims. Besides, what if it was true? It still wouldn't change for me anyway.
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I guess we think of "simulation" differently. For me simulations seem more like a deliberate copy or counterfeit whereas you seem to be using it for anything which is not what it appears to be.

For me the dream of a boat is not a simulation but a genuine presentation of the unconscious mind. If in our waking mind we analyze what it was we remember having experienced in our dream we could say it was like a boat, a dream of a boat. But of course, if we were dreaming, there is no reason to think it was an actual boat. To think of it as a simulation I would have to ask what is it which could be doing the simulating. I don't think we have any reason to think the contents of dreams are deliberate misrepresentations, so I wouldn't consider it a simulation.

Dreams are simply something our minds produce when we are asleep. It isn't even clear that dreams are produced by our non-waking mind for the benefit of our waking minds. We could just be catching glimpses of consciousness going on in our minds that is not of our doing. I assume there is more going on in our minds than our own deliberations, based only on the nature of the phenomena one finds there.

But I don't know why you throw in "it's just as real as a God existing". Of course dreams are real, they are genuine dreams. Comparing the likelihood of things we don't understand doesn't seem productive to me. If some people think fantastic things are real is no reason for me to do the same.
 
Inept said:
They are questions worthy of thought but they are not relevant. The specific point here is the subject of an “edge”. What sort of “edge” would it be? Can we define it? Would it be a wafer-thin demarcation between light and darkness? Could we stand with one foot in the light and the other foot in the dark? Would we fall into it by some sort of gravity? Or would this “edge” be a wall or dome? That would not qualify as an "edge" but in that case, would we try to pierce it to see what is on the other side? I can already hear the Theists exclaiming, “Yes! Yes! The gate to heaven!”
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spectratg said:
There is no edge to the universe. An edge would imply that something exists outside of the universe. It is meaningless to talk about non-existence. When the universe expands, it does not expand into "nothing." It simply expands period. Microwave background radiation (static) is the same in all directions--there is no center to the universe, no starting point.
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There is no merit to a single thing you just said.
 
Inept said:
They are questions worthy of thought but they are not relevant. The specific point here is the subject of an “edge”. What sort of “edge” would it be? Can we define it? Would it be a wafer-thin demarcation between light and darkness? Could we stand with one foot in the light and the other foot in the dark? Would we fall into it by some sort of gravity? Or would this “edge” be a wall or dome? That would not qualify as an "edge" but in that case, would we try to pierce it to see what is on the other side?
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gruntlabor said:
The edge, the end, the thing as opposed to what may be outside of the thing.
For simplicity's sake I think of it as if the universe (the void and all the results of the Big Bang) was placed into, confined to a container
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But earlier you said .....
gruntlabor said:
what do any of us know? Nothing!
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... so why do you now try to set boundaries and even try to "simplify" it? I don't think you have it clear what it is you want to say.
 
spectratg said:
There is no edge to the universe. An edge would imply that something exists outside of the universe. It is meaningless to talk about non-existence. When the universe expands, it does not expand into "nothing." It simply expands period. Microwave background radiation (static) is the same in all directions--there is no center to the universe, no starting point.
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Yes, that is what science says, that static from the Big Bang radiates in all directions. That makes sense, but how does it follow that every point in the universe is the center? Science answers that each body is 'radiating' away from itself.

Science also explains that the Big Bang was not really an explosion, but something else. Why does time flow in only one direction, representing the expansion away from the Big Bang and toward the void? I think there are misunderstandings here, but if there is no center, there can be no edge.
 
Inept said:
Everyone wonders. We all wish we knew the meaning of life.
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Everyone knows a lot, not all of it at the epistemic maximum of certainty but we navigate our lives successfully for the most part making sense of most of what we encounter. Knowledge is not binary, it isn't either we have it or we don't. Truth matters but so does goodness and beauty. Life matters, that is its meaning.
 

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