The confusing relationship between thoughts, emotions, and behaviors.

[bobcat]

Conventional psychology has been built around the idea that thoughts cause feelings, and cognitive therapy explores the thoughts that are causing the feelings. Even the Greek philosopher Epictetus said, "men are disturbed not by events, but by the views which they take of them". It would seem logical to me that thoughts would proceed feelings and would be a natural outcome of the thought.

However, there are other philosophers who claim that feelings produce the thoughts. They contend that the reason and logic and thinking we do is shaped by the underlying feelings in the subconscious and the unconscious. I had often wondered how people with differing beliefs (Religious, political, or almost anything) could read the same information, but come up with entirely different views on it. Something is shaping the thoughts.

Next is the meditation guru's that explain to us that our thoughts are not us, and we shouldn't identify with them. They are just passing clouds drifting through the mind. So, if they are not me, and my beliefs aren't causing them, then where are they coming from? Are they like topics that show up on my home page, and I can decide to click on them or not?

I think so much of our behavior in life is driven by emotions (Love, hate, fear, joy, anger, etc...), but it seems many of those come from thoughts. Either that, or the thoughts are generated from the subconscious where those emotions reside. Maybe it's the chicken or the egg argument. IDK.

 

[Magna-Carta]

I think as comprehensive as the OP is, it only scratches the surface. As people grow older, they can sometimes become stuck in their own thought patterns, risking narrow-mindedness if they’re not careful -- becoming less open to others perspectives. This may be partly due to experiences or a lack of knowledge and understanding in certain areas or subjects, which limits their tacit knowledge.

There’s often a reduced ability to keep their emotions in check or reflect on where those feelings ultimately originate. This lack of controlled analytical reflection can lead to biased thinking, sometimes without them even realising it. It’s not just about reflecting on actions, but also on the thoughts and what drove or provoked them. To understand if one’s own thoughts and feelings are warranted in the world of reality.

As for thoughts vs feelings, I think as you say, both can influence each other, to the point of some being trapped in is vicious circle. With limited opportunity to get out of it. Hell, some might not even want to get out of it, as over time they have become ‘comfortable’ within. it.

Then there is a person’s level of intelligence to consider, and how that effects a person’s thoughts and feelings. Thair ability or inability to understand / comprehend their own thoughts and fellings, let alone for them to understand someone’s else’s. A person’s ability to immediately see logic and reasoning, where others are unable to see any.

I used to often say, most people aren’t intelligent enough to be in a relationship, as they can’t get to grips with themselves, never mind anyone else.

As for the meditation guru's mentioned, who say, “…our thoughts are not us, and we shouldn't identify with them.” I personally think this sets a dangerous president. Becoming the foundation of a lack of personal ownership. Initially no ownership of their own feelings, then of their own thoughts and actions. They become part of the, “They (he/she) made me do it” brigade.

UPDATE:
Your thread title, "The confusing relationship between thoughts, emotions, and behaviors." Sometimes I think they can feel entirely divorced from each other in certain individuals, where there’s limited ownership and reflection. At times, we may need the help of others to guide us in reflecting. There’s nothing wrong with that -- just be sure to choose your co-reflector wisely

 

[Della]

I used to often say, most people aren’t intelligent enough to be in a relationship, as they can’t get to grips with themselves, never mind anyone else.

Oh Magna Carta, I agree with all you said but this. I've known some "simple" people with kind, generous hearts who had wonderful relationships.

On the other hand my father, IQ of150+, was oblivious to the feelings of others. Example; Referring to his last girlfriend, when he was 86 and she was 40 (he was handsome as well as smart.) "The last time we went out together, I handed her a list when she got in the car of all her faults and the things I thought she needed to improve on. We didn't really have as much fun at the art fair as we usually have so I haven't asked her out since."

 

[Paco Dennis]

From my experience with meditation, having practiced and studied Buddhism for 40 years, it is different than analyzing what it is. It takes years of understanding basic principles of Buddhist psychology and developing an understanding of mind.

I don't think there is a personal self or soul. Chan Buddhism is a branch of Zen. In this tradition mind/mental forms form out of one's conditioning. They arise by many means, emotions being one. As soon as we cling to the thought form it expands. It will continue to expand until it dissolves.

As for taking responsibility for those thoughts, emotions, behavior, we become way more aware and responsible, not less.

 

[JustDave]

You know, @bobcat I could go with any one of those viewpoints, and in truth, I believe they all come into play. So I'll be the eclectic on this one. You mentioned behaviors in the thread title, but seemed to have left it out in the discussion. Cognitive Behavior Therapy focuses on behavior as a solution. If course, all therapy makes room for thought, because that is the way most humans arrive at understanding, and that's the way I did it for most of my life until I had to learn how to quit drinking.

And recovery from alcoholism drives the point home. I wasted years, trying to understand my drinking, thinking if I could only find the reason my drinking got out of control I could fix it. But there was no thinking my way out of that that one. I had to learn to "behave" my way out of the problem, and only after I did that did I begin to understand it.

And after solving that problem that way, I started using behavior to solve, thinking, emotional, and just plain being issues in other parts of my life. Wish I would have come to terms with that much earlier in my life, because its a powerful shortcut. I actually knew that from past experiences, but never realized what a whopper it is in the stew you are addressing in this thread.

 

[Magna-Carta]

Oh Magna Carta, I agree with all you said but this. I've known some "simple" people with kind, generous hearts who had wonderful relationships.

On the other hand my father, IQ of150+, was oblivious to the feelings of others. Example; Referring to his last girlfriend, when he was 86 and she was 40 (he was handsome as well as smart.) "The last time we went out together, I handed her a list when she got in the car of all her faults and the things I thought she needed to improve on. We didn't really have as much fun at the art fair as we usually have so I haven't asked her out since."

As I think back on it, and the circumstances (shall I call it a form of reflection?), perhaps my words, "Most people aren’t intelligent enough to be in a relationship, as they can’t get to grips with themselves, never mind anyone else." were intended to provoke deeper thought in those I said it to at the time. Some stop what they are saying and start to think deeper when I say it, some don't. We can all go through a relationship thinking it’s mostly a bed of roses, but there’s always more beneath the surface -- significantly more in some cases. It’s that deeper understanding of ourselves and others in our lives that really makes the difference. It’s a lifelong pursuit.

Even developing one's own intelligence should be a lifelong pursuit -- we might just need help in doing that, if we are open to it enough. When it comes to IQ, it’s just one measurement of intelligence, or perhaps one aspect of it. I think intelligence is a vast subject with many facets and variables, some of which seem to contradict each other. A high score in one aspect of intelligence doesn't always dictate a high score in another aspect of intelligence. Emotional intelligence springs to mind.

When it comes to knowing people, funerals can be a little telling. At funerals when people discover new things about their departed spouses. They look a little sad and say, “I never knew.” In a way I then feel a little sad for them. What added twist to their relationship might there now new knowledge have had to their past relationship? How much more enlightening might that have been if they had known at the time. What was the 'barrier' between seeing "thoughts, emotions, and behaviors" within their relationship, I wonder. And then I wonder, is there anything I can learn from that.

 

[bobcat]

You know, @bobcat I could go with any one of those viewpoints, and in truth, I believe they all come into play. So I'll be the eclectic on this one. You mentioned behaviors in the thread title, but seemed to have left it out in the discussion. Cognitive Behavior Therapy focuses on behavior as a solution. If course, all therapy makes room for thought, because that is the way most humans arrive at understanding, and that's the way I did it for most of my life until I had to learn how to quit drinking.

And recovery from alcoholism drives the point home. I wasted years, trying to understand my drinking, thinking if I could only find the reason my drinking got out of control I could fix it. But there was no thinking my way out of that that one. I had to learn to "behave" my way out of the problem, and only after I did that did I begin to understand it.

And after solving that problem that way, I started using behavior to solve, thinking, emotional, and just plain being issues in other parts of my life. Wish I would have come to terms with that much earlier in my life, because its a powerful shortcut. I actually knew that from past experiences, but never realized what a whopper it is in the stew you are addressing in this thread.

Well, it is a strange triangle that almost acts like a continuum. Emotions affect thinking which affects behavior which affects emotions, and on it goes. I guess I have always thought of behavior as the outcome, or the consequences of thinking and emotions. It is hard for me to imagine that behavior could occur without first having some thought or feeling.

It seems that if a person deliberately chooses to do a specific behavior, (Meaning they have thought about it in advance), they are thereby taking the emotion out of the driver's seat. Then you keep doing the "right" thing until it changes the mindset, and way of thinking and feeling. However, thoughts would still be the starting point, no? Maybe in a perpetual triangle, it doesn't matter if there is a starting point. IDK.

 

[JustDave]

I guess I have always thought of behavior as the outcome, or the consequences of thinking and emotions. It is hard for me to imagine that behavior could occur without first having some thought or feeling.

I know. That is exactly what I thought until I tried the behavior approach, which was suggested in a book I was reading. But they are tied together. and I was surprised that when I used a behavior approach, my thoughts and emotions changed a week later, and showed up in the form of an insight. Then I put the behavior thing in the back seat and didn't use it again until years later when confronting my drinking.

It seems that if a person deliberately chooses to do a specific behavior, (Meaning they have thought about it in advance), they are thereby taking the emotion out of the driver's seat. Then you keep doing the "right" thing until it changes the mindset, and way of thinking and feeling. However, thoughts would still be the starting point, no? Maybe in a perpetual triangle, it doesn't matter if there is a starting point. IDK.

I think that's right. They are all parts of a puzzle, but they don't have to put in place in a certain order to solve the puzzle. Sure thoughts were a starting point in my experiences. You have to have some goal in mind, but once you embrace the goal, you can stop thinking and just concentrate on behavior. They all lead to the same place. For me, all approaches ended in an important insight. Well not "ended" exactly. Insights are just stops along the journey.

 

[bobcat]

I know. That is exactly what I thought until I tried the behavior approach, which was suggested in a book I was reading. But they are tied together. and I was surprised that when I used a behavior approach, my thoughts and emotions changed a week later, and showed up in the form of an insight. Then I put the behavior thing in the back seat and didn't use it again until years later when confronting my drinking.

I think that's right. They are all parts of a puzzle, but they don't have to put in place in a certain order to solve the puzzle. Sure thoughts were a starting point in my experiences. You have to have some goal in mind, but once you embrace the goal, you can stop thinking and just concentrate on behavior. They all lead to the same place. For me, all approaches ended in an important insight. Well not "ended" exactly. Insights are just stops along the journey.

That's probably what is meant by the "Fake it till you make it" phrase. You just "do" something until the feelings and thinking catch up. Obviously, the behavior approach worked for you because on the surface, your heart wasn't in it, and it was up to changing behavior to show you the way.

I think it's terrific Dave that you found the key to turning your life around. We are complex creatures indeed, and perhaps each one can have something that works for them. Maybe some just give up before finding the solution.

 

[HermitHogan]

On the other hand my father, IQ of150+, was oblivious to the feelings of others. Example; Referring to his last girlfriend, when he was 86 and she was 40 (he was handsome as well as smart.) "The last time we went out together, I handed her a list when she got in the car of all her faults and the things I thought she needed to improve on."

That wasn't very smart.

 

[JustDave]

Obviously, the behavior approach worked for you because on the surface, your heart wasn't in it, and it was up to changing behavior to show you the way.

Not exactly. My heart was totally in it. The problem was in my head where I was lacking the correct information. I simply thought a breather from alcohol was all I needed. Among successfully recovering alcoholics the need for total uncompromising abstinence is understood as fact. If an alcoholic doesn't know this, he will never get over the problem. However, it's every alcoholic's early dream of fixing his problem without having to actually stop the behavior.

Once he gets over that, he can begin solving the problem. And it's not really stupidity to believe that dream. All around us, normies, peers, and loved ones, bless their hearts, are telling us just have one or two drinks. We are taught by well meaning people that this is possible, because well, what's possible for them must be possible for everyone else. Right?

 

[Pepper]

I'm an alcoholic. Last night I drank, for the first time in years. @JustDave, I mean this sincerely: I forgot I was an alcoholic. I forgot. Sounds like I'm lying, sounds like I'm crazy, but I forgot. I thought I just didn't drink for a long time. Never once did I remember.

It's been a dirge in my mind for months. All I thought of was breaking the dirge in my head.

I spilled out every drop of what was left. I won't be drinking again. I'm an alcoholic. I don't feel ashamed, I just feel.........

 

[Pepper]

...........I just feel like I'll never drink again. I don't want to. And yes, feel sick to my stomach. Headache. Most unpleasant.

 

[JustDave]

I'm an alcoholic. Last night I drank, for the first time in years. @JustDave, I mean this sincerely: I forgot I was an alcoholic. I forgot. Sounds like I'm lying, sounds like I'm crazy, but I forgot. I thought I just didn't drink for a long time. Never once did I remember.

I don't think you're lying, and you're obviously not crazy. You're not the first one that this has happened to, either. I wish I could explain why this happens. It would be so simple then. But today is a good time to quit for good.

 

[feywon]

From my experience with meditation, having practiced and studied Buddhism for 40 years, it is different than analyzing what it is. It takes years of understanding basic principles of Buddhist psychology and developing an understanding of mind.

I don't think there is a personal self or soul. Chan Buddhism is a branch of Zen. In this tradition mind/mental forms form out of one's conditioning. They arise by many means, emotions being one. As soon as we cling to the thought form it expands. It will continue to expand until it dissolves.

As for taking responsibility for those thoughts, emotions, behavior, we become way more aware and responsible, not less.

I agree with you. In my experience it is not about denying ownership of thoughts/feelings but rather about actually deciding if it warrants keeping/owning/acting on. Not every bizarre thought that crosses one's mind reflects ones deepest self---especially if you are widely read in certain fields and genres---because then odd little 'what if' scenarios commonly pop up as response to something seen, heard or felt.

This is why when i meditate, when i get to 'level' (alpha brain wave state) i affirm that only intentional thoughts/affirmations will 'shape my reality from material to etherial levels'. The stray intruding thoughts become leaves floating by on river current. If non-intentional thought is persistent over several days (very rare these days) i will examine it -- what shaped it, does it need acting on or just acceptance or release?

 

[OldFeller]

I've been reading Carl Jung and his ideas about a conscious and an unconscious.

His idea was that the unconscious mind is always present and active and doesn't miss anything. However, he points out that dreaming is the only time we experience the unconscious mind and the way that it encodes memory.

The conscious mind is under our control and follows what we consider a logical way of controlled thinking.

So in his view, emotion and reasoning are working side by side with the unconscious using emotion to record events and happenings we experience. That would explain why certain thoughts or experiences trigger emotions and why our emotional reactions are often involuntary.

He says that when something in our conscious mind slips away from our thinking, it's stored automatically in our unconscious memory where it can be retrieved over time.

He said that people under hypnosis were able to recall details that they weren't aware of when conscious.

This would explain intuition when things come to us in a flash containing all the details brought together at once. The flash is the conclusion of unconscious reasoning using things we picked up unconsciously.




So when you're having a senior moment, relax and trust that in time things will come back to you. Maybe on another day.

 

[feywon]

@bobcat said: "I think so much of our behavior in life is driven by emotions (Love, hate, fear, joy, anger, etc...), but it seems many of those come from thoughts. Either that, or the thoughts are generated from the subconscious where those emotions reside. Maybe it's the chicken or the egg argument. IDK."

1) Not Chicken or egg argument. Who we are is more like weather--it is a product of several factors on any given planet: Temp, terrain, humidity, winds, atmospheric composition. Substitute emotions, thoughts, social and familial conditioning and our basic consciousness for those factors--they contribute to the nature, consistency and intensity of our behaviors.

2) In recent years i've come to view what we refer to as 'subconscious' as actually the circuit breaker box where we connect to higher or Universal Consciousness. Won't bore (or risk offending some who take issue with the very concept of higher consciousness) by going into detail here. As a believer in reincarnation (another belief that will upset some) i suspect for many in western culture--raised not to accept the idea thr subconscious is where they make contact with past life memories. They surface in dreams, and in our waking lives as affinities and phobias. And can also help shape our choices and behaviors in current life.

 

[Murrmurr]

Conventional psychology has been built around the idea that thoughts cause feelings, and cognitive therapy explores the thoughts that are causing the feelings. Even the Greek philosopher Epictetus said, "men are disturbed not by events, but by the views which they take of them". It would seem logical to me that thoughts would proceed feelings and would be a natural outcome of the thought.

However, there are other philosophers who claim that feelings produce the thoughts. They contend that the reason and logic and thinking we do is shaped by the underlying feelings in the subconscious and the unconscious. I had often wondered how people with differing beliefs (Religious, political, or almost anything) could read the same information, but come up with entirely different views on it. Something is shaping the thoughts.

"Something is shaping the thoughts." That would be judgement (or suppositions), which is largely learned.

Next is the meditation guru's that explain to us that our thoughts are not us, and we shouldn't identify with them. They are just passing clouds drifting through the mind. So, if they are not me, and my beliefs aren't causing them, then where are they coming from? Are they like topics that show up on my home page, and I can decide to click on them or not?

That's putting it in simple terms, but yes, you can choose to temporarily ignore negative, harmful, or disturbing thoughts. But ignoring those thoughts doesn't necessarily stop them from recurring. Chronic negative, harmful, or disturbing thoughts requires treatment such as therapy or even medication.

I think so much of our behavior in life is driven by emotions (Love, hate, fear, joy, anger, etc...), but it seems many of those come from thoughts. Either that, or the thoughts are generated from the subconscious where those emotions reside. Maybe it's the chicken or the egg argument. IDK.

I don't think it matters. Learned suppositions/judgement are the driving force, imo, and a person can get treatment for chronic negative, harmful, or disturbing thoughts, emotions, and reactions that suppositions/judgement causes.

 

[OregonGuy]

Then there is a person’s level of intelligence to consider, and how that effects a person’s thoughts and feelings. Thair ability or inability to understand / comprehend their own thoughts and fellings, let alone for them to understand someone’s else’s. A person’s ability to immediately see logic and reasoning, where others are unable to see any.

I used to often say, most people aren’t intelligent enough to be in a relationship, as they can’t get to grips with themselves, never mind anyone else.

Seems to me this thread is devolving to
"simple" = unintelligent = not qualified to engage in a satisfactory relationship

This smacks of eugenics !

I was raised in an area populated by people called "Oakies" ,,, poor folks originally from Oklahoma
most of the parents never graduated high school so I guess you would classify them as "simple"
IMO this group as a whole exhibited a far deeper comprehension of themselves/others and their feelings than, say, a group of egg heads

 

[Murrmurr]

I think as comprehensive as the OP is, it only scratches the surface. As people grow older, they can sometimes become stuck in their own thought patterns, risking narrow-mindedness if they’re not careful -- becoming less open to others perspectives. This may be partly due to experiences or a lack of knowledge and understanding in certain areas or subjects, which limits their tacit knowledge.

Dementia can cause changes in thinking, judgement, and personality. Brain damage can, too.

Then there is a person’s level of intelligence to consider, and how that effects a person’s thoughts and feelings. Thair ability or inability to understand / comprehend their own thoughts and fellings, let alone for them to understand someone’s else’s. A person’s ability to immediately see logic and reasoning, where others are unable to see any.

I think what effects a normal person's thought processes and how they express their emotions is personality type, rather than intelligence.

 

[OregonGuy]

Dementia can cause changes in thinking, judgement, and personality. Brain damage can, too.

I think what effects a normal person's thought processes and how they express their emotions is personality type, rather than intelligence.

I Agree

 

[smiley]

and lets not bring religion into the discussion heh??

 

[Murrmurr]

and lets not bring religion into the discussion heh??

Why not? It's relative.

 

[MACKTEXAS]

I'm an alcoholic. Last night I drank, for the first time in years. @JustDave, I mean this sincerely: I forgot I was an alcoholic. I forgot. Sounds like I'm lying, sounds like I'm crazy, but I forgot. I thought I just didn't drink for a long time. Never once did I remember.

It's been a dirge in my mind for months. All I thought of was breaking the dirge in my head.

I spilled out every drop of what was left. I won't be drinking again. I'm an alcoholic. I don't feel ashamed, I just feel.........

I read your post an hour ago, and can't get it out of my mind.

I'm sorry for how you're feeling in this moment, but recognize it for no more or no less than what it is; a slip. You've already stayed sober for years, and you know you can do it again - so don't let yourself or anyone else take away the progress you've made.

 

[OregonGuy]

I read your post an hour ago, and can't get it out of my mind.

I'm sorry for how you're feeling in this moment, but recognize it for no more or no less than what it is; a slip. You've already stayed sober for years, and you know you can do it again - so don't let yourself or anyone else take away the progress you've made.

AMEN many friends are here for you