Legal definition of a woman
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VaughanJB
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oh for goodness sake!
Nobody was in favour of trans women being in women's sports, yo u don't need to keep arguing that.
All other rights are about equality for all, so there is no issue with being a woman, a transwoman, a man, a transman....
and of course people should be upfront about any major life issue when dateing
If yo u think it is semantics and can't understand that some people feel they are not the gender they were biologically born with so be it.
I think most people can understand that - but if you can't, so be it.
You mean people on this site? Because allowing trans-women to compete in sports is currently a thing and there has been much debate in the wider world. It happens. Why are you so concerned about bathrooms, but dismissive of sports? The whole trans issue is made up of many components and ideas. You seem to be picking and choosing bits and pieces? But as soon as you set a precedent, it matters.
Saying people should be upfront about being trans when dating isn't the same as saying they do. We're in agreement here, but for all of your "of course", there are instances where it doesn't happen, and is therefore part of the argument, imo. (Not that you have to comment on every comment, of course!)
Honestly, I've said I can't understand trans from the perspective of a heterosexual male. I've never felt like I wanted to be a woman. I also don't know what it's like to be gay, black, or disabled. I'm not going to pretend that I have a full understanding of the psychology involved. The physical act of changing I can understand, though of course I lack the motivation myself. I accept some people want to change their gender. However, "gender", is the blurring word. I haven't used it, I've used the word "biological". Gender is a societal set of characteristics, biological is genetics. Society has divided, say, bathrooms, biologically - as in male and female. They are not set for gender - which people can pick and choose from.
I have also said, several times, that I have nothing against someone who wants to live as the opposite sex. I think they should have equal rights (albeit constrained by societal norms). There are simply some obvious instances where I don't agree with some things. You seem to just brush off some elements, whereas I think it's essential to consider what it really means in day to day life.
As an aside, my local newspaper had a story this week of a Goalkeeper for a football (soccer) team who has had to leave the team. The player was a trans-woman, and the new law in the UK that defines what a woman is (comes down to biology) means they are no longer eligible to play with the women. This makes perfect sense, imo.
VaughanJB
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Of course, Smiley. We live and learn. We become more lenient, and we tighten things up. As I've said, I think some people act as though Trans is something new. It's not. The Romans indulged! All that has changed is surgical techniques and drug regimes.
We just try to explain things are we see it. Opinions, and especially different opinions, are very important. I think I've lost context in this thread a bit. January seems to want to isolate a particular thing, whether we refer to someone as a "he" or "she". Whereas I think it's the wider context that's more important.
I've always called women, "she" when appropriate. I've called men "he". How do I tell the difference? Well, you instinctively know by looking at someone. It's automagic. That said, you might get it wrong. If you do, well it's not like the world catches fire. The issue here is whether I can decide that I must be addressed as a Zebra, and that if you don't address me as such, I'd be offended. I mean, if I wear stripes, why not?
But seriously, if someone has transitioned, they'll hopefully strike people as the gender they portray. If they don't, mistakes will happen.
didn't quite follow that but never mind - biblically which I've been giving you advice on recently - God made woman from mans rib - that's why we say wo --man - Ok - I'll try to keep this simple - however "she" the wo-man needed to be different in some ways so they would romantically & physically attract and have babies - why some men wanna be women and some women wanna be men - well there's the long answer and the short answer - not sure of either really - but this is an important principle,Of course, Smiley. We live and learn. We become more lenient, and we tighten things up. As I've said, I think some people act as though Trans is something new. It's not. The Romans indulged! All that has changed is surgical techniques and drug regimes.
We just try to explain things are we see it. Opinions, and especially different opinions, are very important. I think I've lost context in this thread a bit. January seems to want to isolate a particular thing, whether we refer to someone as a "he" or "she". Whereas I think it's the wider context that's more important.
I've always called women, "she" when appropriate. I've called men "he". How do I tell the difference? Well, you instinctively know by looking at someone. It's automagic. That said, you might get it wrong. If you do, well it's not like the world catches fire. The issue here is whether I can decide that I must be addressed as a Zebra, and that if you don't address me as such, I'd be offended. I mean, if I wear stripes, why not?
But seriously, if someone has transitioned, they'll hopefully strike people as the gender they portray. If they don't, mistakes will happen.
God did give us free will and it is referenced in the good book - thus if some men wanna try and feel like a woman and some women etc etc then so be it - I personally don't see anything weird about that - however as a species we may need to make some adjustments to our say living conditions ; social conditions etc etc - I'll stop now and let you digest that lot - except if you don't believe my quotes from the good book then ya lost in the wilderness and I do feel genuinely remorse for you??
yes I mean people on this site - like I already stated before. the ones yo u are arguing with, none of whom said transwomen should be allowed in women's sports. Not sure why yo u are keeping arguing about that when nobody here, the actual people you are talking to, have said otherwise.
Not sure what you mean by 'dismissive of sports' - I just cant see point in keeping repeating your point on that when nobody said otherwise.
But feel free t o do so again and again and again......
Of course people dont always say everything when dating - but again since nobody was saying otherwise, not sure why you need to repeat that either
yes, clearly you cant understand it - on that we agree.
it isnt me suggesting, it is something places do
it actually accomodates many people - families with children, people with carers etc
Children are safer - no sending young boys into men's toilets alone while mother waits outside.
No issues with privacy or modesty - the toilets are all in individual cubicles. Some have a handwashing sink in each - but some don't - that's ok, I can handle men seeing me wash my hands
ya know just got me thinkin - surely right from off go - why would there be any reason why men and women couldn't use the same toilets ?? - we all need to pee and crap - some of us even do it the same way physically - having different toilets is a societal thing not an exclusion zone or - they pee and crap differently? seriously now give it a moment to sink in??
ps: when I have friends stay over for the w/end we all use the same toilet male and female - no no problem??
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VaughanJB
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Well, I don't consider this "arguing", I consider it discussing a topic, and exchanging opinions. I don't know how anyone can worry about whether someone is called a "he" or a "she" without considering the trans movement as a whole. But that's me. You seem to want to look at a particular point in isolation, but personally I think that's a tiny part of why people have the views they do. After all, mistakenly calling people a he or a she has been with us since language was invented. The only difference today is that people are getting offended by it.
The thread title is broad, and does not single out a specific issue, so......
Yeah, I see big issues with privacy and modesty. You don't, and that's fine. I think there was a very good reason why we made that original decision to have a separate Men and Women rest room, and I think the logic holds up today. A door on a cubicle is not the same thing, imo. Still, you'd be happy, and that's fine. Me? Nah. Not with strangers, thank you. I also don't think young girls should be walking into a rest room with grown men.
As for families, there are often rest rooms for disabled and family (they have tables for babies, etc.) that already exist. There's no need to worry about that.
I don't think we agree on that at all.
But that's okay, we'll just agree to disagree. Are you saying you do understand why someone would want to transition to the opposite sex? If so, that's interesting. I've read accounts, but when someone says they are bothered by their *******ia, it's not something I can relate to. I know what they're saying, but yeah - I've never had the issue.How's about we just stop the back and forth? I'd rather chime in with opinions on the topic, and it seems the only thing you care about is the "he", "she" thing, which we've surely covered (more than once)?
VaughanJB
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I've already given three reasons why we have separate rest rooms, and I think they make good sense. Safety, Privacy, and Modesty are key elements. Yes it's a societal thing, but that being so doesn't mean it's a bad thing. What wrong with society deciding that we have separate rest rooms?
That's aside from the point that men's rooms, and women's rooms, aren't the same. For example, a women's restroom is all cubicles. A men's room is not. If you converted every rest room into cubicles, there are going to be places with space issues - ie. they won't be able to accommodate as many people. That won't matter in some places, but will in others. And for what gain?
In fact, that's a big question. Why are we having a discussion about separate restrooms at all? We all know how it works, we all know what is right. It seems to working just fine. Are we really going to push all that aside to accommodate 0.5% of a population across the entire US? Does that really seem worthwhile to you. You see, for me, it's all part of deciding you're going to transition. It's a burden, no doubt, but it's not like it's a shock. Why is what we 99.5% of people, have to change for that .5%?
To your last point - we're talking about public rest rooms, not the one in your home - with presumably, people you know.
VaughanJB
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Firstly, I don't believe for a moment that a God made women from the rib of man (or man for that matter). But assuming a God, he could have done whatever he pleased, by way of attraction between partners, He didn't have to create women as they are. Surely the choices were infinite?
I don't know what you mean entirely by "weird", but honestly, yes it isn't a normal every day event that a man decides he wants to be a woman (or a woman a man). It's not everyday they get their *******s removed, and insist everyone around them changes with them. You don't see anything weird about that, so we differ on the point. Does your particular Christian church ordain women and/or transgender clergy?
Still, there are many threads about faith, so no need to cover it here. Don't worry about me, I'm an old git.
JustDave
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This has been an interesting thread, but all of a sudden, this pronoun issue hit me different. If a man becomes a woman, why not call him "her. Who started the pronoun issue, and why? Sports and toilets seem worth debating. But pronouns? Maybe I'm missing something. Wouldn't be the first time.
well clearly you have not followed what I have said at all if that is what you are getting from it
Yes everything you have said yo u have covered more than once - many times more - and probably so have I, and I see what I am saying is still eluding you so best to disengage now.
I will wait and see if anyone else has anything new to add.
bye.
VaughanJB
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I can't answer for everyone, of course. There are two elements to it, I think. 1) A belief that a man simply cannot become a woman; 2) An acceptance that we have grown to instinctively recognize whether we're talking to a man or a woman.
The first point needs no explanation, a biological male can never be a biological woman, and vice-versa. imo. The second is the simple fact that when I meet someone for the first time, I don't do a deep analysis of their heritage. As I've stated previously, if you instinctively strike me as a woman, I'll assume you're a woman. If you strike me as a man who has transitioned, then you'll be a man. As such, pronouns became a debate (and not just here, this is much debated all over the internet.)
Now, mistakes happen, and have always happened. In the past, we laughed about it. In the 21st century it's been turned into a great insult, and causes outrage. This strikes me as being out of proportion and over-the-top. Others feel differently.
Still, if you only look at pronouns, then you're not addressing the "how did we get here" and the "why do people have an issue with it" questions. The pronoun issue is simply a tiny part of the subject.
JustDave
Well-known Member
I was thinking more about special case pronouns for a transitioned male or transitioned female, as opposed to a male/male or female/female. As far as I'm concerned, him or her works in either case, and I would use what the person prefers. In a first encounter situation, I would default to whatever the person most appeared to be. If I made a mistake, it warrants a correction, not a lecture for an unintended insult.
I do consider more than pronouns, however. I understand that some people want to be another gender. I don't need to know why. I don't label it right or wrong; Maybe odd, however. I usually like closure so I can understand, but this is a case where I don't need it. It seems too private a subject to require answers.
VaughanJB
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I agree with all of that. I mean, if someone is transitioning, you'd imagine they had a lot more on their mind than a pronoun anyway.
This is why the topic only really makes sense in the wider context, imo. The pronoun situation is easily resolved, but it's truly about something else. Some things I can do something about (my own behaviors) and other things I can't. I'm not campaigning for either side of the divide, but some things are definite in my mind (as previously stated). And in fact, most of the definiteness I've stated are in defense of biological women who are being asked to sacrifice some of their hard won progress in our society.
Twostep
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I have issues with " her" when it is a weight lifter with the appropriate body/hair winning women's competitions on the say so of "I identify'. Try again after alterations and commitments.
VaughanJB
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well clearly you have not followed what I have said at all if that is what you are getting from it
Final word on this, January.
Sometimes we can find ourselves divided by a common language.
I'd much rather draw a line and stay friendly on the forum, than fall out over a topic that, at the end of the day, isn't something very likely to affect my every day life (especially given the UK governments recent decision). It's okay to disagree, and you're correct, I'm not able to figure some things out. It's all good. 
VaughanJB
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We should acknowledge there are people making sacrifices on this point. I recently read the story of Stephanie Turner, who is a fencer (swords). She decided to take a knee, and lose a match (and was actually thrown out of the tournament) when she was matched against a trans athlete. She was/is not opposed to fencing against men (she's done that previously), but she was against competing against someone she considers a man, in a competition specifically organized for women.
This is why all this matters. It's not the he/she thing, it's the real world consequences of accepting the idea that a man can become a woman. A lot of governing bodies in sports have let women down by dancing around the fire hoping it goes out. They should have been stronger and more forthright, but far too many have not.
Still, there are some weird things in the UK. For example, you can change the sex on your birth certificate, which strikes me as peculiar. I guess this is just a difficult subject with a ton of nuance.
Twostep
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Vaughn, there have always been some who truly changed prior to hormones treatments and surgeries. Do some reading. Now we are dealing with the reverses a d speed of medical issues. Who is footing the bills for a child who changed, changed back maybe and will never be a productive member of society? BTW - plenty of females turning male.
JustDave
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Yes... nuance.
Yes agreed.
If you make an unintentional mistake (whether t o a transitioned person or anyone else) it warrants a correction, that's all - and you then go forward calling the person what they prefer.
that is no problem and I'm sure most transitioned people are ok with that happening as are most non transitioned people
The problem is when people stubbornly insist on calling you what you do not prefer after you have corrected them.
and yes, you are echoing what I said before - I can understand some people want to be the other gender. its not how I personally feel but neither are lots of things. I dont have to feel that way myself to understand others do.
VaughanJB
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I'm very aware of that. Back in ye olde days of the 1970's, we had something called "Video Nasties" in the UK. These were a collection of movies that were released on VHS (which was new at the time), that bypassed our ratings. In other words, they included violence, sex, and language that you couldn't see in cinema's at the time. The worst were banned, and it was a huge deal.
One of those movies was called "Let Me Die a Woman", from 1977. That was the first time I saw a movie about someone going through surgical transition. It's an exploitation movie, so you shouldn't expect the topic to be handled without some drama. In fact, in 2025, there's no reason to watch it other than as a video nasty (which it wasn't technically, a member).
I haven't addressed de-transitioners here, but yes, it's a thing, and it's tragic. A trans-man who has had everything done can't ever go back to being a biological woman as we understand it. It's very sad.
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