The dilemma of alcohol abuse in free modern era societies

I find your desire for physical punishment to be quite disturbing, @David777 but I've told you that already. It especially clashes with your desire for a Star Trek like environment, where physically abusing a person would never be welcome.

Were you spanked as a child? Hit? Worse?
 

David777...would you mind telling us what 'qualifications' you have to write and comment on this subject. Are you a medical doctor or have some specialized training and education that supports your comments?
 
David777 said:
My expectation is classical conditioning like with Pavlov's dog salivating upon hearing the bell affect addictive behavior far more. In other words, people over time train themselves by positive reinforcement that science now understands involves neural plasticity, to become so by their own choices. That also means, once established it is not easy to reprogram neural connections and will require time.

So if alcoholics received say a minor shock every time they grabbed a beer can or beer was always suddenly bitter, they might reverse such more rapidly. Instead individuals are allowed to change by higher mental area choices that does not involve actual physical unpleasantness and thus is not very effective removing well established positive neural connections.

By the same logic, that is why I would like to see general punishments for many lower level societal crimes involve actual physical unpleasantness to reverse their behaviors. However the psychology profession guiding modern Western societies due to historic abuses, has long been invested in condemning any sense of physical corporal punishment as inhuman (ironically).
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Interesting. I would think operant conditioning would be more pertinent in that an addict performs a behavior (i.e., ingests a substance) to obtain a specific reward.

With respect to your statement "So if alcoholics received say a minor shock . . . " (sorry, I haven't yet figured out how to quote different parts of a post), I do want to note that disulfiram (Antabuse) appears to still be in use. That sounds like the same thing and again is a form of operant conditioning.

Just my 2 cents.
 
KSav said:
I've read of people becoming addicted to exercise.
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yes that's caused by the endorphins.. which are released into the brain by regular exercise. I got addicted for a while about 30 years ago.. when I started taking an exercise class. At first it was a chore doing it a couple of times a week.. then it became necessary for me to do it every single day... or I would be pacing , itching to do it...
 
JustDave said:
A Clockwork Orange was Stanley Kubrick's satire on behavior modification. Not knocking behavior modification, however. But forced modification does bring up some moral questions.

With alcoholism, there are drugs that will make you sick of you consume alcohol. Some alcoholics have found them useful. Others just stop taking them so they can drink without the side effect. It is generally understood by recovering alcoholics that an alcoholic will only stop when he wants to be sober more than he wants to get drunk. I believe this to be true, but it's only my belief.
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worked in an alco unit once - very true can be the most charming people you could ever meet and devious as well! - could not be trusted even when completely sober we never much saw the real person beneath all the crap - occasionally a sliver crept out
 
smiley said:
worked in an alco unit once - very true can be the most charming people you could ever meet and devious as well! - could not be trusted even when completely sober we never much saw the real person beneath all the crap - occasionally a sliver crept out
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Tell it! That’s been my experience with alcoholic relatives. Something deep going on that almost never gets shared.
 
BlueDragonfly said:
Do any of us have "qualifications" to write and comment on any given subject? We share thoughts, opinions & beliefs here.....
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Sometimes people act otherwise here though. Say something that conflicts with their worldview and the rats come out of the woodwork demanding "sources" which they'll then disparage, proceed to discredit, or hand-wave away. Heaven forbid they do their own research or crawl outside their reality-distortion bubble.

Express an opinion they don't like and expect to be derided.

But I suppose this is merely part of the human condition. This is mainly a "cats and crutches" site anyway.
 
This thread reminds me of the UK/India trade deal made the other day. The big win for the UK? India will drop tariffs on imported hard liquor!
 
I have said many times if alcohol was discovered today and quickly evaluated it would never be legalized. People don't want to admit it but it is simply a mind altering drug that has more negative consequences than benefits.

But hey, it gives you a buzz, lowers your inabitions, makes you funnier, more intelligent, better looking, you know, alters your reality to so you don't have to live in your real world. How can that be bad, right?
 
I think it's a choice in so far as smoking that first cigarette or taking that first drink but at a certain point I don't think it is still a choice to keep drinking or a desire to quit, but rather it has become something your brain needs and will demand of you.

If you were broke and someone said "I'll give you a hundred dollars to hold your breath for three minutes, you might have a really strong desire to do that, but at about the 90 second mark your body will come up for air without even discussing it with your willpower.

People can become addicted to substances like Percocet or alcohol after just a few uses. It depends on how strong the dopamine reaction is. After a while the brain can reach a point where it needs a heavy amount of the substance just to feel normal. Stopping alcohol suddenly can cause seizures and death. Alcohol is considered the dealiest of durgs.
 
The Scottish parliament has on two occasions imposed a minimum price tariff on alcohol. This is not a tax, but a bit of extra profit for the seller. This is supposed to be for health reasons, but I think it is a simply thinly veiled attack on the majority of responsible people who enjoy a drink.

There is a problem with excessive alcohol consumption in Scotland, but the number of those with alcohol dependency is largely unaffected by price, with some evidence that they will prioritise drink above other costs. There also seems to be a difference between the report on the effect of the price tariff which quotes a significant reduction in alcohol related deaths, and the National records which report deaths being at an all time high.

This is another typical example of Scottish policy making.... punish everyone because someone might be guilty. It's easier than solving the problem.
 

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