The Dear Departed

Debby said:
People look forward to a 'new' existence because it means the brutality, violence and heartbreak that we're witness to daily will no longer be an issue to cause concern.

I find it interesting that while people want to venture an opinion on what happens when we die and it's often negative (from 'nothing happens' to 'you're going to hell because you aren't a ????) we're mostly reluctant to do any research or even have an open enough mind to listen to those who've had medical crisis (that don't end in a funeral), that might give a few new ideas or even answers. Death is one thing that none of us can escape and you'd think that people would be more curious (if nothing else) about the experiences of those who've had a 'possible' close call.

And being as sensitive as I can here Underock1, if you had a child who died by drowning, I'm terribly sorry for your having gone through that, but again, from all the reading that I've done, that child will be there for you when the time comes for you to transition. We all originate in the same 'place' and back we go when we're done here. And I think some of us come back and some don't because they've experienced what they came to experience.
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Debby, You misunderstand. My son did not drown. I was referring to that photo of that drowned little immigrant boy, dead on the beach. I would not want to be reincarnated as a father that had to face something like that.
I did, however, lose my own son less than a year ago and my loving wife just this past March. Why would I not want to believe that I will see them both again? Believe me I have done the research. The subject has interested me for many years. I find not a shred of evidence for any after life other than anecdotes or imaginary scenarios created in their own minds by people to make themselves feel better. Nothing wrong with that. Whatever gets people through.
I don't know why you categorize "nothing happens" as a negative outlook. As Mark Twain put it "I was dead for thousands of years before I was born. Didn't bother me a bit." Our views are all very personal to who we are. For me, the idea of disappearing is much more appealing than any of the descriptions I've read of the various afterlives proposed by others.
So climb into your supreme, high efficiency, vehicle and blaze away on the high road of the eternal now. I wish you a happy ride.
I'm going to be taking a long nap. :eek:fftobed:
 

Underock1 said:
At 82, I'm very happy to not have anyone watching me. Enjoying the real memories of the people who were. Not worried about getting into Heaven. Not worried about going to Hell. I don't understand why people are always looking forward to a new existence about which they know nothing. Its always assumed that its going to be wonderful. Maybe its Hell for everybody!
Same with reincarnation. Do I really want to come back and live the life that 90% of the people on this planet live? No thanks. Not interested in seeing my dead two year old lying on the beach.
Looking forward to a long nap, and rejoining my wife's ashes as an insignificant part of the universe.
Hope this isn't too far off topic. Seemed appropriate enough to me.
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It sounds like you've had more than your share of heartache in this life, Underock.

Maybe that's what contributes to peoples' beliefs in an afterlife or the lack thereof? The more challenging one's life on earth has been, the less likely a person might be to want to "live" eternally anywhere? You're just glad it's over.
I get what you're saying.
 
fureverywhere said:
Sometimes it comes from our own heads as well. I listen to my music from back in the day and even now some forty years later remember at what point in certain tunes, my mother would be screaming "Turn that garbage down!". I still hear her even though it's just me and pup on a dark street.
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Excellent point, Fur. I listen to classic rock too and can remember where I was, what the weather was like, who was saying what to whom, who wore what colors, what we were eating etc. It's amazing the things the brain can do. The wealth of info stored up there. So perhaps the limitations of the dead break through barriers for some; it's all in a person's mind?
 

Underock1 said:
Debby, You misunderstand. My son did not drown. I was referring to that photo of that drowned little immigrant boy, dead on the beach. I would not want to be reincarnated as a father that had to face something like that.
I did, however, lose my own son less than a year ago and my loving wife just this past March. Why would I not want to believe that I will see them both again? Believe me I have done the research. The subject has interested me for many years. I find not a shred of evidence for any after life other than anecdotes or imaginary scenarios created in their own minds by people to make themselves feel better. Nothing wrong with that. Whatever gets people through.
I don't know why you categorize "nothing happens" as a negative outlook. As Mark Twain put it "I was dead for thousands of years before I was born. Didn't bother me a bit." Our views are all very personal to who we are. For me, the idea of disappearing is much more appealing than any of the descriptions I've read of the various afterlives proposed by others.
So climb into your supreme, high efficiency, vehicle and blaze away on the high road of the eternal now. I wish you a happy ride.
I'm going to be taking a long nap. :eek:fftobed:
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Oh I'm so glad that you didn't have that awful experience but also sorry that you've lost both your wife and your son. I can't imagine the feeling that you and others have had to deal with in that regard.

As for research, I'm curious about what kind of books and reading you've done that have convinced you there is nothing after this? Would you care to share? For example, have you read the following authors:

P.M.H. Atwater - Near Death Experiences: What the Dying Have to Teach Us About Living, Dying and Our True Purpose
Dr. Raymond A. Moody - Life After Life
Chris Carter - Science and the Near-Death Experience
Dr. Michael Newton - Journey of Souls
Anita Moorjani - Dying to Be Me
Dr. Perry Long - Evidence of the Afterlife
Anthony Peake - Is There Life After Death
Dr. Eben Alexander - Proof of Heaven

Then there's the My Big TOE series by NASA physicist, Tom Campbell who suggests the scientific evidence that supports the existence of an existence after death. My Big Toe actually means 'My Big Theory of Everything'.
And then there's the 'consciousness' studies and experiences of Robert A. Monroe (who's research facility used at one point by the US military and which was set up with the assistance of Tom Campbell) as laid out in his book series, Journey's Out of the Body, Far Journey's and The Ultimate Journey.

'negative' as in 'nothing'. 0 = 0 and I was simply laying out the degrees of possible existence compared to the positive of 'yes there is more' and it is good.:)

I think what were clinchers for me in these 'anecdotal' stories was things like people who'd been born blind and during the resuscitation efforts, were able to describe colours (which they'd never seen before), or the 'dead' man who was able to inform an operating room nurse as to where they'd put his dentures while they were working on his 'dead' body. In Anita Moorjani's case, the fact that after her 'body wide' cancer killed her, three days after resuscitation, there was no sign of any cancer in her entire body.

One thing that I was very much impressed by was an physics experiment called 'the double slit experiment' which shows how probability 'waves' become particles (which form the atoms which compromise everything in the universe) only when they are observed. This calls to mind that old adage, 'if a tree falls in the forest and there is no one to here, does it still make a sound?' More basically, if there is no one to hear, does the tree exist at all? And this in turn is the basic of the science studied and expounded on by Tom Campbell.


But hey, if you're not interested, that's okay too. I'm not trying to build up church numbers here or anything, no prosletyzing per se. Besides, I think we'll all get there whether you know in advance or not ;) so I'll see you later eh!
 
All I can say at this point is, I spent many years formally studying psychology, philosophy and metaphysics, up to and including a PhD in the latter, and have seen no concrete proof of life after death.

That doesn't mean it doesn't exist - only that there is no proof.
 
chic said:
It sounds like you've had more than your share of heartache in this life, Underock.

Maybe that's what contributes to peoples' beliefs in an afterlife or the lack thereof? The more challenging one's life on earth has been, the less likely a person might be to want to "live" eternally anywhere? You're just glad it's over.
I get what you're saying.
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Truth be told, Chic, I've had far less than my share of heart aches. I've had a very lucky life. Great wife, kids, grandkids. No life altering injuries or illnesses, until the end. Yes. My recent losses hurt like Hell. I cry a lot. Often on here, but I think I've had about as good an outcome as can be expected. I concluded that there was no afterlife, decades ago, based on my own observations, and thinking through the details of how any might work. I am quite happy with my view. When its over, its over.
 
chic said:
Many people maintain that they feel the "presence" of their departed loves ones in their daily lives and even believe "so and so" is watching them ( from heaven or wherever) helping them etc. It does benefit people to believe this. They can accomplish goals more easily, fight addictions etc. because they believe their dead are still with them.

How do you feel about this? Have you had any personal experiences in which your dear departed helped you? How has it affected your life?
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When I went to grief counseling some years back they thought that having a connection with the departed was good for a person. That way you don't have such a loss as they are still with you.
 
Debby,
You must be much younger than me. You can certainly out type me! I confess to not having read any of those books. I arrived at my conclusion many decades ago that there is no afterlife, pretty much on my own, based on personal observations and just thinking through the details of how any of them might work. My opinion has been solidified by reading various articles on the scientific research that's been done. I did just do an admittedly quick review of a few of your authors, as well as a Scientific American article and others. Sorry to say, I find anecdote and wishful thinking, but no evidence. I see from your profile that NDE's are a chief interest, As a skeptic and non-believer in anything supernatural, that puts us at opposite poles.
So I hope for your sake that you are right.:sunshine:
I hope for mine that you are not.:devil:
 
Quick review of the authors huh? Well, I think that really understanding the studies of any of these authors would require a thorough reading. A quick review is unlikely to come up with the little 'evidences' that each of them mention as they've interviewed the patients involved. But that's okay, because while the primary benefit in this lifetime is a release from any anxiety that some might have about death and what comes after and as well for others, it also means that there is less concern about the difficulties that we're often faced with in this lifetime, at the same time it's unlikely to make you choose a different mate or house to buy or hobby to pursue. Besides, we all find out in the end what happens and then we deal with it right :).

It does provide interesting discussion though (at least for me it does) and gave me something to pass the time of day. So thanks for that.
 
In the eyes of the Cosmos, the human lifespan is but a twinkle, trapped between two infinities.

Each and every one of us should be thankful that we have had this life. We are probably the only creatures that can appreciate our place in the Universe, our birth and death.

I read somewhere that for every person alive, there were thirty other people before us. We are still here. Our offspring will inherit the future.

In time, we will come to our second infinity.

The twinkle that once was us will go out.

Be thankful that we had the opportunity.
Life was a ball while it lasted.
 
Debby said:
Quick review of the authors huh? Well, I think that really understanding the studies of any of these authors would require a thorough reading. A quick review is unlikely to come up with the little 'evidences' that each of them mention as they've interviewed the patients involved. But that's okay, because while the primary benefit in this lifetime is a release from any anxiety that some might have about death and what comes after and as well for others, it also means that there is less concern about the difficulties that we're often faced with in this lifetime, at the same time it's unlikely to make you choose a different mate or house to buy or hobby to pursue. Besides, we all find out in the end what happens and then we deal with it right :).

It does provide interesting discussion though (at least for me it does) and gave me something to pass the time of day. So thanks for that.
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Debby,
Your posts are always interesting. I have disagreed with you in some. I recall applauding you in others.
Whatever your views, its always obvious that you have done your homework. I know you are a believer. I am not. I have been fortunate to have a happy life. I am comfortable with taking my winnings to the grave. Not interested in testing the unknown prospects of a future one.
I don't expect to find out what happens in the end. If I do, I'm probably in trouble! :shucks:
 
Hanfonius said:
In the eyes of the Cosmos, the human lifespan is but a twinkle, trapped between two infinities.

Each and every one of us should be thankful that we have had this life. We are probably the only creatures that can appreciate our place in the Universe, our birth and death.

I read somewhere that for every person alive, there were thirty other people before us. We are still here. Our offspring will inherit the future.

In time, we will come to our second infinity.

The twinkle that once was us will go out.

Be thankful that we had the opportunity.
Life was a ball while it lasted.
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Life wasn't and isn't a ball for a lot of people Hanfonius. I have been fortunate with my life but I wonder if I am in the minority? For the sake of all those in a living hell here on earth, I hope there is something better in the next world for them.
 
Hanfonius said:
In the eyes of the Cosmos, the human lifespan is but a twinkle, trapped between two infinities.

Each and every one of us should be thankful that we have had this life. We are probably the only creatures that can appreciate our place in the Universe, our birth and death.

I read somewhere that for every person alive, there were thirty other people before us. We are still here. Our offspring will inherit the future.

In time, we will come to our second infinity.

The twinkle that once was us will go out.

Be thankful that we had the opportunity.
Life was a ball while it lasted.
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Agreed. Fortunate in the time of my birth. Content to return my remains to the universe upon my death.
 
Annie said:
When I went to grief counseling some years back they thought that having a connection with the departed was good for a person. That way you don't have such a loss as they are still with you.
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That's interesting Annie. Thanks for sharing.
One of my friends is a psychotherapist and feels that real life experiences with real, living, breathing people are preferable to those with the dead. But I suppose for some for whom that may not be possible, feeling a close connection to a departed loved one might help. It's interesting to consider all points of view on this topic.
 
Linda said:
Life wasn't and isn't a ball for a lot of people Hanfonius. I have been fortunate with my life but I wonder if I am in the minority? For the sake of all those in a living hell here on earth, I hope there is something better in the next world for them.
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Very true, Linda. It's subjective. Life is not pleasurable for everyone. Some suffer greatly. It's important to remember that.
 
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