If reincarnation really exists

[jujube]

I read an interesting short story once about the future, when the world ran out of "souls". Babies were being born who were called "null-vitas". They were perfectly formed and perfectly healthy but they were just completely blank of consciousness. More babies were being born than there were available souls for.

Elderly people were beginning to volunteer for euthanasia in order to "free up" souls for the new babies.

Interesting concept.....

 

[smiley]

and still all we know is we live on a lone planet and cannot find anyone or thing of living substance similar to ourselves in our current explorations of the heavens?

 

[Timewise 60+]

In some Christian groups, there is "limbo", where the souls of "innocents" go.....unbaptized infants, those who were good people, but who lived before the start of Christianity or "heathens" who were never offered the chance to accept Christianity.

Not to be mistaken with "purgatory", where souls go who weren't good enough to get into heaven immediately but not bad enough to go directly to hell. There's a chance to get out of purgatory with a couple of thousand years of repentance or if your family prays enough for your redemption. On the other hand, I would guess if your efforts weren't enough, you could always get shipped off to hell. In the old days, one could buy "indulgences" from the church to ensure you wouldn't have to spend the whole time in Purgatory.

Where is all that "written" I must have missed this detail in my Bible...?

 

[smiley]

don't think you'll find it in the bible - it was all invented by humans of possible one denomination?

 

[feywon]

I read an interesting short story once about the future, when the world ran out of "souls". Babies were being born who were called "null-vitas". They were perfectly formed and perfectly healthy but they were just completely blank of consciousness. More babies were being born than there were available souls for.

Elderly people were beginning to volunteer for euthanasia in order to "free up" souls for the new babies.

Interesting concept.....

i read a similar one once but it ended the first time a doctor realized, he'd delivered a soulless child.

 

[jujube]

don't think you'll find it in the bible - it was all invented by humans of possible one denomination?

Definitely not in the Bible. I find that a lot of "organized religion" was invented to benefit one group or another.

 

[feywon]

I’ve had vivid dreams of past lives. Was it real?? I believe they were. I’ve had a good life but like most of us, Ive had struggles. Right now I want to rest. The thought of having to do this all over again makes me cringe.

i've recovered memories in meditations. and sometimes when meditating a 3X daily or more--i get hit with a spontaneous one. Most often a traumatic memory that just like recovering current life trauma can ultimately lead to healing. That helped with my claustrophobia.

 

[bobcat]

the seagulls fly down and snatch the food right out of people's hands here...they're a real pest....

There you go. That could be me. Who's going to lock up a seagull for snack theft.
If they do, I'll be a jailbird.

 

[smiley]

i've recovered memories in meditations. and sometimes when meditating a 3X daily or more--i get hit with a spontaneous one. Most often a traumatic memory that just like recovering current life trauma can ultimately lead to healing. That helped with my claustrophobia.

sounds interesting - did some meditation years ago but not continuously - what style/type do you do feywon - I'd be interested in getting back into that now you mention it!!

 

[feywon]

Based on knowledge of how an egg is fertilized, I would be curious to know how a soul gets into the Hoo-ha.
I would also be curious to know how we went from a few thousand humans on planet earth to 8 billion. Where did the other souls come from?

Working backward replying to this comment:
Some folks believe that the 'numbers' problem is evidence that souls can transmigrate into animals, as well as the possibility of souls from other planets, galaxies (some of those planets conceivably gone now in supernova's.

The more i read about study in possibility of a Universal Consciousness the more i tend toward to the idea that since souls are NOT physical/tangible but ethereal---energy/consciousness--they could pass right thru physical matter into a developing fetus. Most likely around third month when brain (organic hardware for thought) develops and is ready to receive soul (software).

 

[feywon]

Being born again would only be a good thing if I had an awareness of my previous life, and the mistakes I made. Otherwise I don't know what the point would be.

Since I have no memories of a previous life, I conclude there is no such thing as reincarnation.

If I DID come back, then being born into money and influence is definitely the way to go. If I were born into LESS than I got this time around it would be hell.

Your first sentence? Not necessarily:
1) A lot of things we think we know are just our POV.
2) Often the things people are most certain of are beliefs they were indoctrinated with in childhood, by family or society-- including all sorts of prejudices.
3) An awful lot of people don't seem to learn that well from their mistakes--often this may just be in one area of their life or one aspect of their personality.
Not to mention, do think the daily details of employment, home maintenance in this life would really be that helpful in a world that may have changed even more while you were between lives than it has in our lifetime? Now relationship related memories--Platonic, Romantic, Familial might be helpful. And most who do have past life recalls often get insights into current relationships.

Your second sentence: Really--So you can't conceive of anyone experiencing the world and life differently than you have? While indeed to some extent we do have our own reality (and contribute to creating it), most of humanity's problems stem from emphasis on conformity, thinking our life experience is the template, when we may be an anomaly and outlier. The worst of humanity's problems grow out the tendency some people have to try and force others to believe as they do. That's part of why while i will at times share my experience, i don't expect my experience to be evidential to anyone else. However, over the years there have been times when others found what i shared to be useful, helpful in some way.

Consider this not just you Vaughn but everyone on this thread who lumps all beliefs of any kind (except of course THEIR religious ones) in to the category of 'fantasies': Humans have been story tellers from the beginning. And stories, whether every detail is factually accurate or not, can often help people have insights about who they are, what they VALUE in life, their priorities.

And maybe as psychologist Edith Fiore has written, even if our own brains manufacture 'paranormal' experiences and past life recalls--if those things help us get to place where we like ourselves and respect others, and do our best to do more good than harm in this world---then they've served purpose. And as long as someone isn't actively harming others (and trying to force your religion's rules on anybody else is harmful) they can believe any cockamamie thing they want as far as i'm concerned.

 

[bobcat]

Working backward replying to this comment:
Some folks believe that the 'numbers' problem is evidence that souls can transmigrate into animals, as well as the possibility of souls from other planets, galaxies (some of those planets conceivably gone now in supernova's.

The more i read about study in possibility of a Universal Consciousness the more i tend toward to the idea that since souls are NOT physical/tangible but ethereal---energy/consciousness--the could pass right thru physical matter into a developing fetus. Most likely around third month when brain (organic hardware for thought) develops and is ready to receive soul (software).

I suppose it would have to be some sort of free-floating energy unlike chemical, electrical, or mechanical, something unconnected to matter. Just a nebulous sort I am guessing.

 

[feywon]

sounds interesting - did some meditation years ago but not continuously - what style/type do you do feywon - I'd be interested in getting back into that now you mention it!!

i made up my own at first from things i read. But at age 32 i took the Silva Method basic course. It is an 'active' form of meditation, where the individual always has control, even tho when learning they are somewhat guided. It involves slowing down not just breathing, but the brainwaves change. Jose Silva called it 'going to level', alpha brainwaves. Most children are at alpha in waking hours as well as some stages of sleep. Most adults are running on Beta brainwaves most of waking hours unless they are meditating. At alpha we're more receptive to new info and remember more of new things learned.

At the time (late 70s early 80s when i was active with Silva Graduates group, the courses were reasonably priced. Tho i only paid for the basic, won the advanced (Ultra) course due to a 'Success Story' essay i wrote for a contest at a Silva Convention. Later i got to sit in on advanced healing course by helping with the set up and clean up. Jose himself taught that one. He's transitioned to after life now. But his adult kids still run it. They publish books and have free YouTube videos that
can help beginners. Which hopefully means they're honoring their Dad's notion the world could be a better place if more people meditated. But i think a motivated learner could probably develop solid meditation skills from the books and vids.

There were times when i stopped entirely for a months or a year. Usually because sometimes back then life became so much easier--not problemless but finding solutions came easier and sometimes it felt TOO easy. But i always came back to it because life worked better, i feel better and i can do more for others when i meditate a minimum of twice daily.

Unlike Deepak Chopra i don't affirm 'perfect' health,, but 'optimal health' for my age and what i've put my body thru. i realized long ago that for me part of the point in physical life is accepting that while here our physical bodies are subject to laws of matter. i do some fine tuning, chakra work, if i know for sure what caused a pain i can stop or at least dull it. But aging is part of the deal when we take material form.

Edit/addition. Some people have trouble with formal sit down, be relatively still meditating. But if you have any activity where you get that 'in the flow', 'in the zone' feeling that gives you a clue about the feeling of being at alpha. Gardening, hiking, dancing...anything where your movements are so habitual they come natural and you stop thinking about stressors in your life and just experience the moment.

At the Silva convention they had a biofeedback machine that would actually turn on a light bulb when your brainwaves were at alpha. There were some Mexican Nuns (Silva gave the courses free to clergy of any religion and counted the sisters as such) who could carry on normal conversations without the bulb so much as flickering (Newberg's studies regarding 'God' and brain function' decades later showed and are showing similar results with people of various religions). i could answer yes/no questions aloud and keep the light steady but those Nuns could laugh and joke with the rest of us without the slightest flicker of the light.

 

[feywon]

I suppose it would have to be some sort of free-floating energy unlike chemical, electrical, or mechanical, something unconnected to matter. Just a nebulous sort I am guessing.

Yes...energy...remember laws of thermodynamics--neither matter or energy can be destroyed, rather they can be converted back and forth from one to the other.

 

[VaughanJB]

Your first sentence? Not necessarily:
1) A lot of things we think we know are just our POV.
2) Often the things people are most certain of are beliefs they were indoctrinated with in childhood, by family or society-- including all sorts of prejudices.
3) An awful lot of people don't seem to learn that well from their mistakes--often this may just be in one area of their life or one aspect of their personality.

Without awareness, I could have no appreciation of any of that. I couldn't "learn", I could only do differently, which would rely on the very same factors that occurred this time around. Without awareness, frankly, I see no point in reincarnation at all. It seems like it's just a do-over?

Your second sentence: Really--So you can't conceive of anyone experiencing the world and life differently than you have? While indeed to some extent we do have our own reality (and contribute to creating it), most of humanity's problems stem from emphasis on conformity, thinking our life experience is the template, when we may be an anomaly and outlier. The worst of humanity's problems grow out the tendency some people have to try and force others to believe as they do. That's part of why while i will at times share my experience, i don't expect my experience to be evidential to anyone else. However, over the years there have been times when others found what i shared to be useful, helpful in some way.

I don't see how your first sentence follows my comment at all. Of course people experience the world differently - mostly because it IS different for each of us, to varying extents. How did you get that conclusion from my writing: "Since I have no memories of a previous life, I conclude there is no such thing as reincarnation."?

I think the conformity issue is an whole other topic. As a society, we need a level of conformity. Too much conformity, and we stop being free thinkers. Still, to function we need people to follow laws, and conventions, imo. I don't pretend to talk for others, and can only speak to what I have concluded myself. If you feel differently, then it's all good, right?

I do feel as though I've upset you a little, and that certainly wasn't my intent.

 

[bobcat]

Yes...energy...remember laws of thermodynamics--neither matter or energy can be destroyed, rather they can be converted back and forth from one to the other.

True, but most need conduits or ways of transmitting the energy. Foods we eat convey it by chemical, electrical uses conduit or wire, mechanical uses force and torque through mechanical means. Convection or radiant energy would be an exception, but I wouldn't begin to speculate how that could transfer a soul, but in the realm of metaphysics, I suppose one theory may be as good as another.

 

[feywon]

Without awareness, I could have no appreciation of any of that. I couldn't "learn", I could only do differently, which would rely on the very same factors that occurred this time around. Without awareness, frankly, I see no point in reincarnation at all. It seems like it's just a do-over?



I don't see how your first sentence follows my comment at all. Of course people experience the world differently - mostly because it IS different for each of us, to varying extents. How did you get that conclusion from my writing: "Since I have no memories of a previous life, I conclude there is no such thing as reincarnation."?

I think the conformity issue is an whole other topic. As a society, we need a level of conformity. Too much conformity, and we stop being free thinkers. Still, to function we need people to follow laws, and conventions, imo. I don't pretend to talk for others, and can only speak to what I have concluded myself. If you feel differently, then it's all good, right?

I do feel as though I've upset you a little, and that certainly wasn't my intent.

If you conclude one thing doesn't exist because YOU personally haven't had any experience of it, what other things do you deny the existence of because you haven't experienced them?

Societies have to agree on laws. But too many societies want their religions to determine some of those laws. Rather than the just common sense of things like traffic laws, property and bodily harm laws.
__________________________

Why is it when a woman writes a long, thorough response to something a man has commented, the assumption many men make is that they 'upset' her. What? Women can't enjoy a little intelligent discourse of differing points of view without our emotions being engaged? Rhetorical question, while i know its not all men---i have a clue why some do especially online.

 

[feywon]

@VaughanJB said:
"Without awareness, I could have no appreciation of any of that. I couldn't "learn", I could only do differently, which would rely on the very same factors that occurred this time around."

I had intended to respond to this paragraph at the end of my other response. In part because i wanted to do so tactfully.Then i had interruptions and time to take DD to work was upon us.

Thing is many of us do have awareness that people who have little of knowledge of reincarnation often find it easier to dismiss as things like deja vu, dreams, hallucinations -- mind glitches. I don't know about others, but often the past lives' memories seem to come when we're doing a lot of introspection, meditation, reflecting on who we are and what kind of person we want to be.

Regarding what i made bold: by what stretch of the imagination do you think that being born into a different body, with different parents, family configuration (siblings or not, birth order, amount of extended family.contact), physical location, culture etc. would bring the 'very same factors' to your development as a sentient being? Reincarnation is not so much a do over, as additional experience. When we are in the space between lives we do have access to past life memories if we wish. Those memories can inform the circumstances of next reincarnation.

If you meant that having 'awareness' of all the details of all past lives would be the 'very same factors' you might want to read more neurobiology or at the very least Malcolm Gladwell's book 'Blink'.
In explaining the 'intuitive' leaps we sometimes make with surprising accuracy he, of necessity, explains that there is much info that gets stored in our subconscious. If our minds can draw on subconscious data from current lives why not past life data too?

As i said in earlier paragraph past life recall, however an individual experiences it, often turns up when the individual is seeking to understand themselves and grow-- i.e. when the 'awareness' is needed. That's not that different from getting the helpful nudge from the subconscious when needed regarding people, jobs, scams.

But if you're happy as you are, enjoy. Just as some people take comfort in the concept of a highly structured (judgement, heaven/hell) afterlife some take comfort in believing there is no 'after'.

 

[VaughanJB]

If you conclude one thing doesn't exist because YOU personally haven't had any experience of it, what other things do you deny the existence of because you haven't experienced them?

Depends on the instance. In say, child birth, I don't feel any pain. I could therefore conclude there is none, but of course I can see it's a fact.

I think UFO's are yet to be proven, though I believe there is life on other planets - something that won't be revealed with proof in my lifetime.

Some things we can extrapolate, some things not. That's life. We can't experience everything.

Societies have to agree on laws. But too many societies want their religions to determine some of those laws. Rather than the just common sense of things like traffic laws, property and bodily harm laws.

We rely on a bedrock of religion because that is how our societies grew. Religion allowed the first true scientific work to be done. Religion gives us an accepted moral compass. Moreso, it brought people together under one belief system, giving cohesion. It's just how it is. I'm not sure, without our past, things are necessarily "common sense".

Why is it when a woman writes a long, thorough response to something a man has commented, the assumption many men make is that they 'upset' her. What? Women can't enjoy a little intelligent discourse of differing points of view without our emotions being engaged? Rhetorical question, while i know its not all men---i have a clue why some do especially online.

You're being disingenuous. My previous response, and comment, wasn't based on your sex, it was based on your tone and the statements you wrote. Perhaps the better question is, why do you think it had anything to do with your sex? And if in doubt, why did you not simply ask me for an explanation, rather than making this statement?

@VaughanJB said:

Regarding what i made bold: by what stretch of the imagination do you think that being born into a different body, with different parents, family configuration (siblings or not, birth order, amount of extended family.contact), physical location, culture etc. would bring the 'very same factors' to your development as a sentient being?

Those ARE the factors. They're data points. Many of the challenges we face are common to all. We need shelter, we need nurture, we need nourishment, etc.

Keep in mind - I do not believe there is such a thing as a soul. I don't believe in a creator (other than nature itself). I believe we are living organisms that have evolved a wonderful brain that is still on its journey, evolving through the years ahead. When we pass, we go back to the earth, and our place is taken by a new born. No heaven. No hell. No do-overs. That's just me.

I do however believe our brains are extraordinary things, and that we store a lot of information in there. Intuition isn't something that is stored in a single place, it is the result of our brains "connecting the dots". Without it we might well have gone extinct early in our life cycles.

As for my being happy, I actually rather like that death wasn't the end. I'd love a do-over so I can correct my mistakes. I simply don't accept that's possible. I have rejected western religions, and the same goes for Asian religions who seem to have a larger belief system in transmigration. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. But at least I was honest about my beliefs.

 

[MarkD]

If you conclude one thing doesn't exist because YOU personally haven't had any experience of it, what other things do you deny the existence of because you haven't experienced them?

I don't think I've ever concluded that people who report past lifes were lying or mistaken but I did lean pretty heavily on what seemed common sense to me, and so ignored them. Fortunately I'm much less inclined to do that any more. I haven't had any experiences of it still but I've had enough variety of experiences to know the world can seem very different and I can even experience myself very differently than I usually do. I'd say I'm curious to know more but don't seek out past life experience.

A friend wrote a story that included past life experiences and I enjoyed it very much.

 

[Llynn]

for those of us who barely know who General Patton was.. much less anythig he said... can you expand.... ?

Patton firmly believed he had lived prior lives and had previously fought at sites where he actually fought in WW11.He implied that he had always been a senior commander at all these historic battles. The movie "Patton" picked up on this.

His poem "Through a Glass Darkly" explores his belief. He even said he thought he had been involved in the crucifixion of Jesus.