Trying to imagine thinking without language

Grampa Don said:
I often wonder about people who are born deaf. They never hear words. They can read and write them, but sound has no meaning. How do they think about things? Do the visualize words? It's hard for me to imagine what that must be like.
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That's a great question. I would imagine they think in a sign language, or more visual representations of dialogue. I've never thought about that, but it would be an intriguing question to ask them. I wonder what comes into the mind of someone who is blind and deaf, but can read Braille.
 
If we can agree that thinking isn't limited to verbalization, then thoughts without language are fairly common.

Artists & designers are often "thinking" in visual terms, and in 3-dimensional terms sometimes. Musicians can think in terms of sound (rhythm, melody, harmonies, etc). I play guitar a little, and I've had melodies or fretboard-related things come to me in dreams. More than with me, my daughter (who studied classical piano, and likes all sorts of music) has had music come to her in sleep.

Could be that some human thinking developed fairly early along these lines.
 
bobcat said:
I had read somewhere once that language is processed in a different area of the brain than thought, but I'm having a hard time trying to imagine thought without language. It must be possible because early humans had thought before language evolved, and even animals do it, but maybe with us, language is so interwoven with thought that it almost seems impossible.

I know we have awareness, but it just seems different than thought. My whole inner world is just a stream of words. Maybe animals don't think like we do. Perhaps it's more like association and response. IDK
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I believe it is a little like peripheral vision which, if you've ever walked at night you know is superior for seeing in low light. So at night it is better not to look intently where you are going but rather just to the side a bit so that the path you are walking falls outside the focal point to where the rods allow for black and white vision.

There is a focal center for our thinking too. If we stick to language it is like that focal point. It is where we have the most direct control but our brains are processing input all the time even outside of where we have placed our attention. Like our eyes our brains handle a lot more than what we are focused on. Intuition is a bit like peripheral vision. It is when we realize something without really trying.
 
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MarkD said:
I believe it is a little like peripheral vision which, if you've ever walked at night you know is superior for seeing in low light. So at night it is better not to look intently where you are going but rather just to the side a bit so that the path you are walking falls outside the focal point where the rods allow for black and white vision.

There is a focal center for our thinking too. If we stick to language it is like that focal point. It is where we have the most direct control but our brains are processing input all the time even outside of where we have placed our attention. Like our eyes our brains handle a lot more than what we are focused on. Intuition is a bit like peripheral vision. It is when we realize something without really trying.
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I believe you are correct. I was under the impression that thinking only went on in the conscious mind because it just feels that way. However, the subconscious just goes about it in a different, more intuitive and instinctual way. As to whether the subconscious thinks verbally or not, I'm not sure. It may be more of a silent processor.
 
gruntlabor said:
Yes, to ponder, evaluate, ruminate serious things I'm in trouble. For that I need words, maybe pencil and paper to clarify. But the mental calculations/thought needed to catch a ball are very complex too, and there's no time for words.
But thinking about our mental flow in normal, lighter fare is different, like, "What do I need to do/gather in order to go out and do my chores?" I don't say those words to myself, or any words, I don't think.
My brain is pretty smart, smarter than I am.
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Logical thinking is based on words exclusively. It requires statements that can be drawn from previous statements that lead to a conclusion, or to the state where no conclusion is warranted. Can't be done visually as far as I can tell.
 
There are only so many elements we humans can juggle logically mentally alone for understanding without relying on other tools and that tends to be about 7 items. But let's say there is a list of 30 single digit numbers on a whiteboard. Even if one has a simple task of adding the 30 numbers one is allowed to only look at for just 5 seconds, they will first need to store the actual numbers first to have any chance of adding up more than a few from mere visual memory.

But for just 7 numbers, if one quickly vocalizes out loud that short list, so one exercises their vocal muscles and hears the sounds with their ears, they are much more likely to be able to recall the 7 number list versus just visually looking at the numbers for 5 seconds. Given brain short term memory chemical connection pathway persistence, it takes several seconds of time for such momentary memories to fade away below working conscious awareness of. If one is using vocal muscles, sound, and vision, that persistence is more likely to be recalled than just any one sense. So yeah, something is becoming difficult to understand? Don't be afraid to vocalize whatever out loud, even if a few others may think such is negative, "talking to oneself".

Say someone just gave you a 7 digit phone number? If you quickly repeat the number vocally several times, 867 5309...867 5309...867 5309, even if barely audibly, one is much more likely to be able to recall ( Jenny's phone number :) ) later versus just trying to recall what one's ear sound memory stored. That is because the action has been cross connected within multiple brain pathways instead of just one sense memory.

Over my adult lifetime, I've had to read a ridiculous amount of science and technology. That is a task where "speed reading" has no value. Instead, I may need to read a paragraph, over and over and over a dozen times to have any chance of understanding whatever before moving on to the next section. And I'm very very good at doing that. Other times, I might have been troubleshooting a complex electronic hardware problem and had to scribble out on paper a simplified block diagram of processes I would look at back and forth over and over using my language brain, trying to develop a better understanding of.

Other times I would build a complex Excel page of data and information to look at to better come to grips with complexities. Complexities that almost always involve language, structures, terms, data. In fact, coding software languages is totally within such language term realms. A bit of HTML code I wrote last month. All highly connected about my language brain with interconnections to my thinking cerebral cortex.

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<div style="text-align: center;"><img src="UZ03735-03754-3x1vw.jpg" width="1000" height="628" alt="UZ03735-03754-3x1v" title="UZ03735-03754-3x1v above upper Hoover Lake, whitestem goldenbush."></div>
<p class="grnr">UZ03735-03754-3x1v&nbsp;&nbsp;7000x6100 pixels&nbsp;&nbsp;4 column 1 row 4 frame 20 shot focus stack stitch blend&nbsp;&nbsp;a6700 30mm<br><a href="UZ03735-03754-3x1ve.jpg">enlarged vertical slice view</a></p>

<p>By time I reached this next subject above at 8:32am, the up canyon continuous breeze had already begun but was still allowing brief periods of semi-calm within upper Hoover Lake. At frame lower right are the yellow blooms of <b>whitestem goldenbush</b>, <i>ericameria discoidea</i>, with an adjacent sagebrush species. Note the trail at frame right. Pyramidal peak 11240+ frame right with out of view Summit Lake off to its right.</p>

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JustDave said:
Logical thinking is based on words exclusively. It requires statements that can be drawn from previous statements that lead to a conclusion, or to the state where no conclusion is warranted. Can't be done visually as far as I can tell.
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I was giving that some thought, and then I wondered about math problems such as 36 + X = 93. It seems to require logical thinking, but no words. However, I am verbalizing numbers in my head, so perhaps those qualify as words too. IDK
 
gruntlabor said:
I don't think I think in words.
I don't know how I think, but it's not in words.
Isn't "thinking in words" like talking to oneself silently? Wouldn't that take much MUCH longer to do? Don't we think pretty much instantaneously?

Edit: When I think "FIRE!!" I see the picture of the fire, not the stupid word.
Words are about communication.
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What do you see when you think LOVE?
 
David777 said:
There are only so many elements we humans can juggle logically mentally alone for understanding without relying on other tools and that tends to be about 7 items. But let's say there is a list of 30 single digit numbers on a whiteboard. Even if one has a simple task of adding the 30 numbers one is allowed to only look at for just 5 seconds, they will first need to store the actual numbers first to have any chance of adding up more than a few from mere visual memory.

But for just 7 numbers, if one quickly vocalizes out loud that short list, so one exercises their vocal muscles and hears the sounds with their ears, they are much more likely to be able to recall the 7 number list versus just visually looking at the numbers for 5 seconds. Given brain short term memory chemical connection pathway persistence, it takes several seconds of time for such momentary memories to fade away below working conscious awareness of. If one is using vocal muscles, sound, and vision, that persistence is more likely to be recalled than just any one sense. So yeah, something is becoming difficult to understand? Don't be afraid to vocalize whatever out loud, even if a few others may think such is negative, "talking to oneself".

Say someone just gave you a 7 digit phone number? If you quickly repeat the number vocally several times, 867 5309...867 5309...867 5309, even if barely audibly, one is much more likely to be able to recall ( Jenny's phone number :) ) later versus just trying to recall what one's ear sound memory stored. That is because the action has been cross connected within multiple brain pathways instead of just one sense memory.

Over my adult lifetime, I've had to read a ridiculous amount of science and technology. That is a task where "speed reading" has no value. Instead, I may need to read a paragraph, over and over and over a dozen times to have any chance of understanding whatever before moving on to the next section. And I'm very very good at doing that. Other times, I might have been troubleshooting a complex electronic hardware problem and had to scribble out on paper a simplified block diagram of processes I would look at back and forth over and over using my language brain, trying to develop a better understanding of.

Other times I would build a complex Excel page of data and information to look at to better come to grips with complexities. Complexities that almost always involve language, structures, terms, data. In fact, coding software languages is totally within such language term realms. A bit of HTML code I wrote last month. All highly connected about my language brain with interconnections to my thinking cerebral cortex.

------------------

<div style="text-align: center;"><img src="UZ03735-03754-3x1vw.jpg" width="1000" height="628" alt="UZ03735-03754-3x1v" title="UZ03735-03754-3x1v above upper Hoover Lake, whitestem goldenbush."></div>
<p class="grnr">UZ03735-03754-3x1v&nbsp;&nbsp;7000x6100 pixels&nbsp;&nbsp;4 column 1 row 4 frame 20 shot focus stack stitch blend&nbsp;&nbsp;a6700 30mm<br><a href="UZ03735-03754-3x1ve.jpg">enlarged vertical slice view</a></p>

<p>By time I reached this next subject above at 8:32am, the up canyon continuous breeze had already begun but was still allowing brief periods of semi-calm within upper Hoover Lake. At frame lower right are the yellow blooms of <b>whitestem goldenbush</b>, <i>ericameria discoidea</i>, with an adjacent sagebrush species. Note the trail at frame right. Pyramidal peak 11240+ frame right with out of view Summit Lake off to its right.</p>

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Thanks David. I would give that some thought, but I wouldn't know where to start. Programming isn't my thing.
 
Grampa Don said:
I often wonder about people who are born deaf. They never hear words. They can read and write them, but sound has no meaning. How do they think about things? Do the visualize words? It's hard for me to imagine what that must be like.
Click to expand...
My cousin is deaf. She lip reads and speaks aloud in normal, natural English. You would never know it. My kids didn't believe me when they were children. So we walked up behind my cousin when she was loading things into the back of her van. I told the kids to scream at her at the top of their lungs. She didn't even flinch because she didn't hear anything.

She wasn't born deaf. When she was just little, like 2, she contracted a disease which left her deaf. I figure that her brief experience with hearing helped a great deal with her being able to speak so well.
 
Grampa Don said:
I often wonder about people who are born deaf. They never hear words. They can read and write them, but sound has no meaning. How do they think about things? Do the visualize words? It's hard for me to imagine what that must be like.
Click to expand...
I've heard of people who think in pictures. I think one of them is Temple Grandin, but not sure. She is not deaf or blind.

What about Helen Keller? She was deaf and blind. If she thinks in pictures, how does that work when she has never seen anything? I remember reading about how Anne Sullivan taught her the meaning of water. That's how a taught my dog the meaning of water. He grokked it right away; it was pretty cool and useful.

Anyway, maybe reading about Helen Keller and things she's written would solve the mystery.
 
I read a quote attributed to a great mathematician which touched on the role of intuition. Of course I couldn't remember who or how it was phrased exactly but thankfully we have Google"

The mathematician who said, "I have had my results for a long time: but I do not yet know how I am to arrive at them," was
Carl Friedrich Gauss.
This quote highlights a phenomenon in mathematics where intuition or insight provides the correct solution to a problem long before a rigorous proof can be formally constructed.

Sometimes I think we do better to get out of our own way and let our total being pitch in to solve problems.
 
WheatenLover said:
I've heard of people who think in pictures. I think one of them is Temple Grandin, but not sure. She is not deaf or blind.

What about Helen Keller? She was deaf and blind. If she thinks in pictures, how does that work when she has never seen anything? I remember reading about how Anne Sullivan taught her the meaning of water. That's how a taught my dog the meaning of water. He grokked it right away; it was pretty cool and useful.

Anyway, maybe reading about Helen Keller and things she's written would solve the mystery.
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Yes, in the movie The Miracle Worker, there was a sudden ignition that a certain sign representation with the hands conveyed a meaning in the real world. Prior to that she was just experiencing things in raw sensation, but there was no association.

Then at the well, the miracle happened. Tactile signs weren't just random. They actually stood for something. I don't understand what happens in the brain there, but it seems like a semantic leap.
 
WheatenLover said:
I've heard of people who think in pictures. I think one of them is Temple Grandin, but not sure. She is not deaf or blind.

What about Helen Keller? She was deaf and blind. If she thinks in pictures, how does that work when she has never seen anything? I remember reading about how Anne Sullivan taught her the meaning of water. That's how a taught my dog the meaning of water. He grokked it right away; it was pretty cool and useful.

Anyway, maybe reading about Helen Keller and things she's written would solve the mystery.
Click to expand...

I've heard that too about Temple Grandin. I don't think in pictures but I can imagine quite elaborate things mentally.

In secondary school we were given an exam with some unusual problems. In one we were asked to imagine four identical spheres resting on a flat surface. On top of each sphere imagine another identical sphere is placed. If you connect the center of each of the first four spheres you get a square. If you do the same for the four additional spheres you get an identical square. Then if you connect the center of each added sphere to the one it sits on you get a cube. So the question was, if the radius of the eight spheres is one unit, what is the volume of the cube not contained in any of the 8 spheres? It turns out to have a fairly simple answer.

Google had no problem giving me that answer.
 
MarkD said:
I've heard that too about Temple Grandin. I don't think in pictures but I can imagine quite elaborate things mentally.

In secondary school we were given an exam with some unusual problems. In one we were asked to imagine four identical spheres resting on a flat surface. On top of each sphere imagine another identical sphere is placed. If you connect the center of each of the first four spheres you get a square. If you do the same for the four additional spheres you get an identical square. Then if you connect the center of each added sphere to the one it sits on you get a cube. So the question was, if the radius of the eight spheres is one unit, what is the volume of the cube not contained in any of the 8 spheres? It turns out to have a fairly simple answer.

Google had no problem giving me that answer.
Click to expand...

It has been a long day and you lost me. Maybe I will try again later.
 
I think that communication goes beyond words or any particular language. Say, for instance you have a dog. Over the course of say a year or more he looks at you. You look at him or her and know what they are saying. Who learned whose language??
Or more precisely you both learn how to communicate.
I believe the same holds true for any match up. Communication is both intellectial and instinct. Intellectually you can learn the sounds and the reference but you will still lack the meaning behind a certain phrase or word and how it is used.

We want to define everything by intellect yet a high IQ does not gaurantee success or understanding.
 
Trying to imagine thinking without language is like trying to write a novel using only interpretive dance. Majestic, confusing, and probably banned in most libraries. Yet maybe that’s the essence of raw thought. A silent current beneath the words, where meaning exists before it’s forced to dress up in grammar.
 
Aunt Bea said:
I think it would probably take the form of a video, similar to our dreams.

We would visualize our needs, desires, etc…

I also think about people from other countries that speak fluent English, do they think in English or do they convert their thoughts to French, German, Spanish, etc… 🤔
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That's an interesting question. I've often heard very young people have more malleable brains so they pick up other languages more easily than adults. I'm sure those that have grown up in multi-lingual households never have to convert their thoughts from one language to another.

From a personal perspective, having taken two semesters of Spanish and having lived in Miami for years I learned a lot of phrases in Spanish. I never had to convert my thoughts from English to Spanish. If I say "cuida te" I know I'm warning someone to be careful . Also, many Cubans in Miami speak "Spanglish" so they intersperse Spanish with English quite often.

However, I'm sure US expats moving to other countries have to think about what they are saying in English and convert to another language.
 
Naturally said:
Trying to imagine thinking without language is like trying to write a novel using only interpretive dance. Majestic, confusing, and probably banned in most libraries. Yet maybe that’s the essence of raw thought. A silent current beneath the words, where meaning exists before it’s forced to dress up in grammar.
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Quite poetic.
 
bobcat said:
It seems some animals must have thoughts of some sort, and even go so far as do deceive other animals, so they must be doing some sort of mental exercise. An octopus seems like an intelligent creature, but are they really thinking (Processing), or just waiting to respond to whatever happens?
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Since we've had so many cats, I've learned they are "programmed" to do things like hunting, (even if they are domesticated) and grooming themselves and each other. They even "knead" some owners because they were programmed to get milk from their mother that way when they were kittens.

But they certain learn how to communicate with humans via meowing because they don't do that with each other. They also learn routines because mine is outside my door the minute he hears my alarm go off. As for thoughts, I know they are thinking but I can never quite figure out about what! :ROFLMAO:
 
MarkD said:
I've heard that too about Temple Grandin. I don't think in pictures but I can imagine quite elaborate things mentally.

In secondary school we were given an exam with some unusual problems. In one we were asked to imagine four identical spheres resting on a flat surface. On top of each sphere imagine another identical sphere is placed. If you connect the center of each of the first four spheres you get a square. If you do the same for the four additional spheres you get an identical square. Then if you connect the center of each added sphere to the one it sits on you get a cube. So the question was, if the radius of the eight spheres is one unit, what is the volume of the cube not contained in any of the 8 spheres? It turns out to have a fairly simple answer.

Google had no problem giving me that answer.
Click to expand...
Wow, your school exam questions sound like Rubik’s cubes , but I’m more curious i f those spheres were chocolate truffles , would you calculate the volume first orjust eat one?
 
bobcat said:
I had read somewhere once that language is processed in a different area of the brain than thought, but I'm having a hard time trying to imagine thought without language. It must be possible because early humans had thought before language evolved, and even animals do it, but maybe with us, language is so interwoven with thought that it almost seems impossible.

I know we have awareness, but it just seems different than thought. My whole inner world is just a stream of words. Maybe animals don't think like we do. Perhaps it's more like association and response. IDK
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It is fairly common among the neurodivergent to think in images Most notably Temple Grandin, and last year i found out my grandson does too. It.helped understand and be more patient with a speech quirk he has.
 

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