Trying to imagine thinking without language

[gruntlabor]

Take this old saying about habits. It inclines me to agree with bobcat.

"From the Thought to
The Word to
The Action to
The Habit to
The Character to
Destiny"

The Thought is just a fuzzy fleeting impulse, but the Word picks up on that impulse, visualizes, clarifies, strengthens it and drives us forward physically to the Action.

 

[MarkD]

Wow, your school exam questions sound like Rubik’s cubes , but I’m more curious i f those spheres were chocolate truffles , would you calculate the volume first orjust eat one?

Tasting would be believing. I'm very hands on that way.

 

[Bretrick]

I can not even envision the concept.
How do blind, deaf and mute people navigate the world?
Blind critters - Moles. worms use? Smell, vibrations?

 

[WheatenLover]

Volume of a sphere is 4/3(pi)r^3

(But there is no need to do anything more with the answer than that especially since we made the radius 1.)

Yeah, I noticed that when I looked up volume of a sphere.

 

[gruntlabor]

Thinking in words, then, must be related to the consciousness, the
sentience. the observance of ourselves, which was a marking point in our evolution.

 

[WheatenLover]

As for thoughts, I know they are thinking but I can never quite figure out about what!

My stepdaughter's cat lives to torment me. When he sees me, it's like a light switch turns on. We will spend the next couple of hours together with him sitting on my keyboard and me removing him, over and over again. When he gets bored, he tries to bite me. His owners call those "love bites", and insist every cat does it.

I tell him all the time what a horrible cat he is. He just purrs and kneads and rubs his face on mine. I don't think he speaks English.

I had cats for 14 and 15 years and they never bit or scratched me. Now I know 2 biting cats. I also know how to tell when they are about to bite, so I can protect myself. No, I don't throw them across the room! I just move my arm out of their reach. The second cat belongs to my nephew.

 

[gruntlabor]

What do you see when you think LOVE?

I feel. Tears, emotion

 

[seadoug]

My stepdaughter's cat lives to torment me. When he sees me, it's like a light switch turns on. We will spend the next couple of hours together with him sitting on my keyboard and me removing him, over and over again. When he gets bored, he tries to bite me. His owners call those "love bites", and insist every cat does it.

I tell him all the time what a horrible cat he is. He just purrs and kneads and rubs his face on mine. I don't think he speaks English.

I had cats for 14 and 15 years and they never bit or scratched me. Now I know 2 biting cats. I also know how to tell when they are about to bite, so I can protect myself. No, I don't throw them across the room! I just move my arm out of their reach. The second cat belongs to my nephew.

We had a precious little Russian Blue that we adopted at 8 weeks. She would lay on my chest when I napped but if I looked in her eyes she would bite my face. My father came over to the house one day while I was at work and took a nap. His face was full of bite marks after Misha laid on his chest. I know "love bites" and they were not. She was a vicious little thing, which is why we have male cats now. She is the only cat out of many that ever bit out of spite. I hear you.

 

[bobcat]

I think I am learning a bit more from everyone's input. I am realizing that not all thought is language oriented. When you do a math problem, it isn't verbal, and even when an architect is working with a design, it is more spacial and visual conceptualizing.

In most cases, language is part of the process, but it’s more like a trigger or input than the medium of thought itself. For Grandin, she understood language and communicated with others using it, and I believe even wrote a multitude of books. However, language is more like a user interface, a way to interact with others, access information, and label concepts. But the engine of her cognition seems to run on imagery, not syntax or grammar.

Because for many of us, language is the dominant mode of organizing and accessing thought. It’s like a scaffold we build our ideas on. It seems there is such a fine line between thinking, feeling, and visualizing. I used to have a set of drums, and enjoyed playing along to songs, but in the process, I don't really recall thinking about what I was doing (At least in the classical sense of thinking). If I could describe it, it was more like sensing, and letting the music guide my input.

I guess it's similar to what we label as right-brain people and left-brain people. Some rely primarily on reasoning and logic, and some more on intuition and feeling. Not being an artist, I don't know if they are thinking in terms of words, or even thinking at all. When a glass blower is creating a beautiful vase, they may just be thinking about the mechanics of what they are doing, and visualizing colors, but perhaps not at all in language terms.

 

[JustDave]

I was giving that some thought, and then I wondered about math problems such as 36 + X = 93. It seems to require logical thinking, but no words. However, I am verbalizing numbers in my head, so perhaps those qualify as words too. IDK

For me, I see the number, but in math, especially algebra, we are also logically proceeding through a series of mental instructions that come in the form of words. As we get better, I suppose some of that becomes a type of mental muscle memory, with the words playing in the background.

 

[gruntlabor]

I used to have a set of drums, and enjoyed playing along to songs, but in the process, I don't really recall thinking about what I was doing (At least in the classical sense of thinking). If I could describe it, it was more like sensing, and letting the music guide my input.

There is a vast difference in perception in learning music by ear or by notation.

 

[MarkD]

, language is more like a user interface, a way to interact with others,

This rings true for me. We are the most social species on earth. We collaborate on many tasks and pass skills on to a new generation. Surely that is the purpose for which language would have evolved.

When I was in high school I read or heard someone say this and question the need for internal language at all. He said internal language used to narrate our experience to ourselves is odd. So I started then to refrain from doing it so far as possible. I found nothing was lost. In fact I found early on in college, when writing, the words I wanted came to me all the more readily the less I used them for narration.

It’s almost as if by keeping attention on a question but holding a space for an answer, thought is given free rein. In college when writing a paper in class for an assignment, it felt like my conscious involvement became recognizing an expression of an answer I liked from amongst the ones which were presented in the space I left open for that. So thought becomes something not that I personally put together, but rather something from which I choose a winner.

 

[JustDave]

I just noticed something I was aware of before but forgot in the discussion. Just a few minutes ago, I was working with some 5 digit numbers, where I had to commit one to memory because I was going to plug it into my calculator a couple seconds down the road. I would say the 5 digits to myself and listen as I said them. When it was time to enter the number, I would repeat it to myself and listen as I entered the digits. It was more of an auditory use of my brain than visual. Of course, words like five and eight were used and I was looking at those numbers as I entered them, but it seemed more auditory than anything else... maybe.

 

[bobcat]

I just noticed something I was aware of before but forgot in the discussion. Just a few minutes ago, I was working with some 5 digit numbers, where I had to commit one to memory because I was going to plug it into my calculator a couple seconds down the road. I would say the 5 digits to myself and listen as I said them. When it was time to enter the number, I would repeat it to myself and listen as I entered the digits. It was more of an auditory use of my brain than visual. Of course, words like five and eight were used and I was looking at those numbers as I entered them, but it seemed more auditory than anything else... maybe.

It's very strange indeed. When I say 3,785 in my head, I internally hear the numbers, but the image is the numbers themselves. I don't picture the number spelled out in my mind. I've never noticed that before. Very peculiar.

 

[bobcat]

This rings true for me. We are the most social species on earth. We collaborate on many tasks and pass skills on to a new generation. Surely that is the purpose for which language would have evolved.

When I was in high school I read or heard someone say this and question the need for internal language at all. He said internal language used to narrate our experience to ourselves is odd. So I started then to refrain from doing it so far as possible. I found nothing was lost. In fact I found early on in college, when writing, the words I wanted came to me all the more readily the less I used them for narration.

It’s almost as if by keeping attention on a question but holding a space for an answer, thought is given free rein. In college when writing a paper in class for an assignment, it felt like my conscious involvement became recognizing an expression of an answer I liked from amongst the ones which were presented in the space I left open for that. So thought becomes something not that I personally put together, but rather something from which I choose a winner.

That's very cool. It's as if the subconscious knows things that the conscious mind doesn't, and when it recognizes what the conscious mind is searching for, it provides that answer or solution. It may be something similar to the way the mind works when driving. You want to get somewhere safely, but while driving your mind is lost in thought somewhere else. Suddenly the brake lights come on in the car in front of you, and the subconscious alerts the conscious mind that attention is needed. I think intuition works in a similar way.

 

[JustDave]

That's very cool. It's as if the subconscious knows things that the conscious mind doesn't, and when it recognizes what the conscious mind is searching for, it provides that answer or solution. It may be something similar to the way the mind works when driving. You want to get somewhere safely, but while driving your mind is lost in thought somewhere else. Suddenly the brake lights come on in the car in front of you, and the subconscious alerts the conscious mind that attention is needed. I think intuition works in a similar way.

The subconscious is like the internet. There is a lot of useful information in it waiting to be tapped, but there's at least an equal amount nonsense and misinformation that successfully competes for our attention. I visit it from time to time, but I wouldn't want to live there.

 

[JustDave]

We had a precious little Russian Blue that we adopted at 8 weeks. She would lay on my chest when I napped but if I looked in her eyes she would bite my face. My father came over to the house one day while I was at work and took a nap. His face was full of bite marks after Misha laid on his chest. I know "love bites" and they were not. She was a vicious little thing, which is why we have male cats now. She is the only cat out of many that ever bit out of spite. I hear you.

I had a cat that would sleep on top of that warm box that used to feed a signal to the TV. He slept there most of the time. I would quietly walk up to him and put my face 2 or 3 inches from his. In a few seconds, he would open his eyes. That was the only part of his body that moved, until he would give a quick "Meow," and close his eyes. We would do that a couple of times each day. Just "touching bases" was all.

 

[Knight]

I think it could be a mix.

When doing a DIY project like plumbing I visualize what is needed draw it out on paper then put in the words that describe the parts & pieces needed.
Then there is the human baby. If born with sight, hearing & no language other than odd sounds how would that fit into this ?

 

[gruntlabor]

I think it could be a mix.

When doing a DIY project like plumbing I visualize what is needed draw it out on paper then put in the words that describe the parts & pieces needed.
Then there is the human baby. If born with sight, hearing & no language other than odd sounds how would that fit into this ?

The infant has not yet acquired sentience, which goes side by side with internal dialogue, maybe?

 

[feywon]

i think our individual brains function with varying 'mixes' of words and imagery. Tho i know there are people who cannot create or hold a visual image in there minds. That is hard for me to imagine, because i've always been a very visual person tho as i acquired verbal skills and reading they became important to me too. But when i read a book i get a lot of visual imagery going on in my head (when i read fiction it's kind of like a movie getting created in there).

Last time i checked scientists were still saying that men have better 'spatial' skills than women. So either that was largely a function of what kind of chores and games were played by individual boys/girls--how much one had to use spatial skills or i'm an exception. Because my spatial skills are very good. (DH #3 got terribly frustrated at how much higher i could score on Tetris than he could). Rearranging furniture i can 'see' what will fit where and packing a moving van--i can minimize empty spaces, so there's little shifting in transit. Often when solving a practical problem that will require assembly or disassembly of items or jury rigging something if only a temp solution needed--i ;may think about the goal in words--but them the solution often comes visually.

In the last few years with stamina not being what it used to i will measure to make a heavy item will fit somewhere--most often it does--usually with a margin, rarely it is a 1/4 of inch too big--and i'm glad i took the time to measure, to conserve my declining energy reserves. i've always measured when it involved cutting anything--cloth or lumber--just makes sense to be sure.

If i've misplaced something, i don't usually remember in words (Example " Oh, yeah, an interruption caused me to put it someplace different than usual" Instead i see the room or outdoor spot and my own hand(s) putting whatever wherever.

Not sure y'all want me to get started on math. A college Algebra professor told me she could tell i had a 'basic, practical frequent use' type of math facility but that doesn't always translate to doing 'higher math' and vice versa. Their are people for whom astrophysics type math comes very easy--but when they err--it's usually not misuse of formula--but a basic math error in finding the solution (adding/subtracting, multiplying/dividing). That made sense--to me.
i learned basic math early (4-5 yrs old). In some ways the relationship between various numbers may be somehow a 'spatial' perception for me? When i was a single Mom on tight budget--i could keep a running tally in my head to stay within my budget when shopping. It became so habitual i did it for decades after i needed to do so. The only times i'b be off by more than pennies was if i was newly in a different state where different items taxable &/or different tax rate.

Math may be the internal language of the universe--so many repeating patterns. And many scientists have trouble accepting new ideas even about hard to measure things like human interactions, feelings, beliefs unless backed up by Statistics and of some kind of predictive 'formula'. (won't even get into my issue with that here--maybe for another time). But recently i was pondering why the numbers 3, 6 and 9 were considered special by Tesla.
A possible answer came to me not by having an inner dialogue about them, but just sort of a visual flash of their special relationship to each other. i then spent a the necessary time doing some math--with one numerological aspect to it (that of reducing all multi-digit numbers to a single digit by adding them together) to prove to myself that those 3 numbers are different. Interestingly many sounds meant to aid in meditation will be at mhz's that will reduce to 9. But again despite what a large role math has in our material, physical world, is probably a bit too much of a digression.

 

[bobcat]

i think our individual brains function with varying 'mixes' of words and imagery. Tho i know there are people who cannot create or hold a visual image in there minds. That is hard for me to imagine, because i've always been a very visual person tho as i acquired verbal skills and reading they became important to me too. But when i read a book i get a lot of visual imagery going on in my head (when i read fiction it's kind of like a movie getting created in there).

Last time i checked scientists were still saying that men have better 'spatial' skills than women. So either that was largely a function of what kind of chores and games were played by individual boys/girls--how much one had to use spatial skills or i'm an exception. Because my spatial skills are very good. (DH #3 got terribly frustrated at how much higher i could score on Tetris than he could). Rearranging furniture i can 'see' what will fit where and packing a moving van--i can minimize empty spaces, so there's little shifting in transit. Often when solving a practical problem that will require assembly or disassembly of items or jury rigging something if only a temp solution needed--i ;may think about the goal in words--but them the solution often comes visually.

In the last few years with stamina not being what it used to i will measure to make a heavy item will fit somewhere--most often it does--usually with a margin, rarely it is a 1/4 of inch too big--and i'm glad i took the time to measure, to conserve my declining energy reserves. i've always measured when it involved cutting anything--cloth or lumber--just makes sense to be sure.

If i've misplaced something, i don't usually remember in words (Example " Oh, yeah, an interruption caused me to put it someplace different than usual" Instead i see the room or outdoor spot and my own hand(s) putting whatever wherever.

Not sure y'all want me to get started on math. A college Algebra professor told me she could tell i had a 'basic, practical frequent use' type of math facility but that doesn't always translate to doing 'higher math' and vice versa. Their are people for whom astrophysics type math comes very easy--but when they err--it's usually not misuse of formula--but a basic math error in finding the solution (adding/subtracting, multiplying/dividing). That made sense--to me.
i learned basic math early (4-5 yrs old). In some ways the relationship between various numbers may be somehow a 'spatial' perception for me? When i was a single Mom on tight budget--i could keep a running tally in my head to stay within my budget when shopping. It became so habitual i did it for decades after i needed to do so. The only times i'b be off by more than pennies was if i was newly in a different state where different items taxable &/or different tax rate.

Math may be the internal language of the universe--so many repeating patterns. And many scientists have trouble accepting new ideas even about hard to measure things like human interactions, feelings, beliefs unless backed up by Statistics and of some kind of predictive 'formula'. (won't even get into my issue with that here--maybe for another time). But recently i was pondering why the numbers 3, 6 and 9 were considered special by Tesla.
A possible answer came to me not by having an inner dialogue about them, but just sort of a visual flash of their special relationship to each other. i then spent a the necessary time doing some math--with one numerological aspect to it (that of reducing all multi-digit numbers to a single digit by adding them together) to prove to myself that those 3 numbers are different. Interestingly many sounds meant to aid in meditation will be at mhz's that will reduce to 9. But again despite what a large role math has in our material, physical world, is probably a bit too much of a digression.

For the longest time, I believed in the "left brain", "right brain" description when it came to individuals and even the sexes, but I've read now that it's just not true. Apparently both halves work together in a collaborative effort. However, due to the brain's neuroplasticity, the more you demand of one area, the more connections and the stronger pathways are the result. Experience and preferences tend to shape our gray matter more than anything. We can be born with more "potential" in certain skills, but whether they are developed depends on us and choices we make.

 

[MarkD]

For the longest time, I believed in the "left brain", "right brain" description when it came to individuals and even the sexes, but I've read now that it's just not true. Apparently both halves work together in a collaborative effort.

It's certainly true that almost all that was published after the first split brain operations in the 60's and 70's was wrong. But there is lots known now about brain lateralization which is on solid scientific grounding. But the way it was talked about back then almost like a way to sort personality types was all half baked and has been debunked.

As you say the two halves collaborate on everything. The idea that some functions were handled on one side while others were done on the other was another mistake. As it turns out every creature's brain is lateralized as ours is and for the same purpose: to attend to two things at once. Broadly one side looks out for dinner and other needed tasks while the other watches out to avoid becoming another creature's dinner. Those tasks require different modes of attention.

For all creatures, manipulating the world to attend to routine needs happens on the left side where focused attention is often required. But survival requires broad, sustained attention in an open ended way to respond to whatever comes up. Deliberative thinking takes place in the left and constant vigilance takes place on the right side. The person who has done the most to assemble the more recent research is Iain McGilchrist and the has put the information out in two ambitious books, The Master and the Emissary in 2009 and The Matter With Things in 2021.

My introduction to his thinking came through this animated video which was created to accompany a talk he'd given. It is blessedly simpler than the books though those are very well written.

 

[bobcat]

It's certainly true that almost all that was published after the first split brain operations in the 60's and 70's was wrong. But there is lots known now about brain lateralization which is on solid scientific grounding. But the way it was talked about back then almost like a way to sort personality types was all half baked and has been debunked.

As you say the two halves collaborate on everything. The idea that some functions were handled on one side while others were done on the other was another mistake. As it turns out every creature's brain is lateralized as ours is and for the same purpose: to attend to two things at once. Broadly one side looks out for dinner and other needed tasks while the other watches out to avoid becoming another creature's dinner. Those tasks require different modes of attention.

For all creatures, manipulating the world to attend to routine needs happens on the left side where focused attention is often required. But survival requires broad, sustained attention in an open ended way to respond to whatever comes up. Deliberative thinking takes place in the left and constant vigilance takes place on the right side. The person who has done the most to assemble the more recent research is Iain McGilchrist and the has put the information out in two ambitious books, The Master and the Emissary in 2009 and The Matter With Things in 2021.

My introduction to his thinking came through this animated video which was created to accompany a talk he'd given. It is blessedly simpler than the books though those are very well written.

Well, he certainly has a lot to say. No way to check it all, but I found it very interesting. Thanks for sharing that.

 

[outlander]

Sometimes I find it difficult to just think period

 

[Nathan]

Trying to imagine thinking without language

That is hard to imagine, 'tho I've tried. Sometimes when walking to dogs I try to focus on the sounds, the feelings(tactile) the sun light and such, to try to experience the in the moment way that the dogs experience life.