Trying to imagine thinking without language

[Knight]

The infant has not yet acquired sentience, which goes side by side with internal dialogue, maybe?

I'm pretty sure an infant has acquired sentience.

Sentience: sentient condition or character; capacity for sensation or feeling.

Also will speculate that the newborn makes noise to complain that removal from that warm & comfortable previous living environment is not appreciated.

 

[gruntlabor]

That is hard to imagine, 'tho I've tried. Sometimes when walking to dogs I try to focus on the sounds, the feelings(tactile) the sun light and such, to try to experience the in the moment way that the dogs experience life.

I've watched male dogs courting. That is not living in the moment. That is living in the future.
They're planning ahead.

 

[gruntlabor]

I'm pretty sure an infant has acquired sentience.

Sentience: sentient condition or character; capacity for sensation or feeling.

Also will speculate that the newborn makes noise to complain that removal from that warm & comfortable previous living environment is not appreciated.

My newborn son was circumcised without a local. You betcha he was sentient.
Your definition of sentience is right, but that's not what I meant.
I should have said that the infant has not yet acquired self awareness, the ability to observe himself observing. Or maybe he has, I don't know.

 

[David777]

Thread has about run its course, so lets see what AI looking at much of our written information has to say. Reads like pretty much what I've already related and expected.

AI Overview: Google: what mental activities do not require language

Mental activities that do not require language are those that rely on non-verbal, visual, and sensorimotor processes
. Research in neuroscience has shown that regions of the brain responsible for language are silent during many complex thinking tasks, proving that language and thought are separate entities.

Examples of non-linguistic mental activities include:
Spatial and visual reasoning

Art and creative tasks: Drawing, painting, and sculpting all rely on visual and spatial thinking rather than words.
Mental rehearsal: A gymnast visualizing a floor routine or an architect mentally picturing a new building depends on visual and kinetic imagery, not language.
Navigating: Driving a car, navigating through a building, or judging the distance of objects requires spatial reasoning, not inner monologue.

Problem-solving and logic

Chess and strategy games: Playing chess, poker, or other strategy games requires reasoning and planning that can occur without verbal thought.
Solving puzzles: Logic puzzles, Sudoku, and building with blocks or Legos are often performed with visual and structural thought processes.
Tool use and invention: The process of inventing or designing a mechanical object can be a visual or image-based activity, often conceived before it can be described in words.

Sensory and emotional experiences

Processing sensations: Enjoying a delicious meal, feeling the exhaustion in your legs after a long hike, or experiencing a strong emotion can be deeply felt without being verbalized.
Non-verbal communication: Interpreting and expressing body language, facial expressions, and gestures involves understanding social cues without words.
Musical cognition: Composing or remembering a song is an auditory mental activity. A person who suffered a stroke, and as a result had aphasia, could still write music.

Physical and motor skills

Athletic activities: Many sports require split-second decisions and physical reactions that are much faster than verbal thought. Hitting a baseball or dribbling a basketball are examples.
Reflexive actions: Automatic or reflexive brain-based processes like sneezing are performed without language.

Memory and consciousness

Unsymbolized thinking: This is a type of thought that occurs without the use of either words or visual images. Many people engage in it, though they may not realize it because it is difficult to describe.
Recalling events: While we often use language to recount memories, the initial experience and retrieval of a memory can be a non-verbal process rich with images, sounds, and emotions.

 

[MarkD]

Physical and motor skills

Athletic activities: Many sports require split-second decisions and physical reactions that are much faster than verbal thought. Hitting a baseball or dribbling a basketball are examples.
Reflexive actions: Automatic or reflexive brain-based processes like sneezing are performed without language.

I agree with all your points here but I think this one might be the most obvious. If you're working on your stroke in tennis there is no way that thinking any words is going to help you.

 

[bobcat]

Thread has about run its course, so lets see what AI looking at much of our written information has to say. Reads like pretty much what I've already related and expected.

AI Overview: Google: what mental activities do not require language

Mental activities that do not require language are those that rely on non-verbal, visual, and sensorimotor processes
. Research in neuroscience has shown that regions of the brain responsible for language are silent during many complex thinking tasks, proving that language and thought are separate entities.

Examples of non-linguistic mental activities include:
Spatial and visual reasoning

Art and creative tasks: Drawing, painting, and sculpting all rely on visual and spatial thinking rather than words.
Mental rehearsal: A gymnast visualizing a floor routine or an architect mentally picturing a new building depends on visual and kinetic imagery, not language.
Navigating: Driving a car, navigating through a building, or judging the distance of objects requires spatial reasoning, not inner monologue.

Problem-solving and logic

Chess and strategy games: Playing chess, poker, or other strategy games requires reasoning and planning that can occur without verbal thought.
Solving puzzles: Logic puzzles, Sudoku, and building with blocks or Legos are often performed with visual and structural thought processes.
Tool use and invention: The process of inventing or designing a mechanical object can be a visual or image-based activity, often conceived before it can be described in words.

Sensory and emotional experiences

Processing sensations: Enjoying a delicious meal, feeling the exhaustion in your legs after a long hike, or experiencing a strong emotion can be deeply felt without being verbalized.
Non-verbal communication: Interpreting and expressing body language, facial expressions, and gestures involves understanding social cues without words.
Musical cognition: Composing or remembering a song is an auditory mental activity. A person who suffered a stroke, and as a result had aphasia, could still write music.

Physical and motor skills

Athletic activities: Many sports require split-second decisions and physical reactions that are much faster than verbal thought. Hitting a baseball or dribbling a basketball are examples.
Reflexive actions: Automatic or reflexive brain-based processes like sneezing are performed without language.

Memory and consciousness

Unsymbolized thinking: This is a type of thought that occurs without the use of either words or visual images. Many people engage in it, though they may not realize it because it is difficult to describe.
Recalling events: While we often use language to recount memories, the initial experience and retrieval of a memory can be a non-verbal process rich with images, sounds, and emotions.

Good points, but to be fair, many of those things wouldn't comfortably fit the classical concept of thinking. IMO
if we define "thinking" narrowly as pondering, analyzing, or ruminating, evaluating, and contemplating—then visualizing something without engaging with it intellectually might seem like a separate act. It could fall more under mental imagery or memory recall, depending on context.

Merriam-Webster defines thinking as “the action of using one's mind to produce thoughts”.
But that's where it gets interesting: What does one consider a thought. To me it means pondering, evaluating, ruminating, reflecting, contemplating, etc... It is an active engagement with something. For example:

I could imagine a red apple in my mind (Nothing more). That's what I would consider passive visualization. It is simply memory recall in the analytical sense. It's more like a mental snapshot. However, active visualization would be if I have thoughts about the apple, like if I am wondering about the taste, or what variety it is. Then I have crossed into thinking territory because now I am engaging with the image cognitively.

As for procedural memory, such as dribbling a basketball, hitting a baseball, etc..., much of that is handled by the subconscious, and therefore below the level of consciousness, however, I do think some things are shared between the two. Maybe I'm going to hit this pitch, but I want to make sure goes to left field so the runner going from first to second has a better chance, so I open my stance a bit. My hand to eye coordination, muscle memory, grip, etc... are handled by the subconscious, and my timing (Staying ahead of the pitch) are calculated using conscious processes.

Anyway, I think some thinking or thoughts may fall into a gray area (Pun intended). One might even call it the cognitive subconscious. For me, thinking involves an active mental engagement with something, more than just mental imagery. But that's just me.

 

[JustDave]

I agree with all your points here but I think this one might be the most obvious. If you're working on your stroke in tennis there is no way that thinking any words is going to help you.

When I was learning to ski in my early 20s, it wasn't like your tennis example at all. I read the monthly tips in ski magazine to learn how to carve a turn. It's true that young kids who become good skiers, and maybe most adults too, don't, but rather, they just do it, finally setting on a set of muscle memories that work.

But in learning to do one turn there are linked steps that are done in the correct order, and I was reading the tips in my mind as I experimented and learned. Eventually, that became pure muscle memory that required no thought. But the learning part was very cerebral for me. As you advance, you discard the steps and correct orders in your brain. One turn and all the steps happens faster than one can think if you want to do it smoothly, and muscle memory takes over.

Learning to play basketball years before that. It was more doing and not so much cerebral. But in watching coaches teach fundamentals and strategy, I realized I missed out on something important. Thinking is is a big help there too.

 

[gruntlabor]

Good points, but to be fair, many of those things wouldn't comfortably fit the classical concept of thinking. IMO
if we define "thinking" narrowly as pondering, analyzing, or ruminating, evaluating, and contemplating—then visualizing something without engaging with it intellectually might seem like a separate act. It could fall more under mental imagery or memory recall, depending on context.

Merriam-Webster defines thinking as “the action of using one's mind to produce thoughts”.
But that's where it gets interesting: What does one consider a thought. To me it means pondering, evaluating, ruminating, reflecting, contemplating, etc... It is an active engagement with something. For example:

I could imagine a red apple in my mind (Nothing more). That's what I would consider passive visualization. It is simply memory recall in the analytical sense. It's more like a mental snapshot. However, active visualization would be if I have thoughts about the apple, like if I am wondering about the taste, or what variety it is. Then I have crossed into thinking territory because now I am engaging with the image cognitively.

As for procedural memory, such as dribbling a basketball, hitting a baseball, etc..., much of that is handled by the subconscious, and therefore below the level of consciousness, however, I do think some things are shared between the two. Maybe I'm going to hit this pitch, but I want to make sure goes to left field so the runner going from first to second has a better chance, so I open my stance a bit. My hand to eye coordination, muscle memory, grip, etc... are handled by the subconscious, and my timing (Staying ahead of the pitch) are calculated using conscious processes.

Anyway, I think some thinking or thoughts may fall into a gray area (Pun intended). One might even call it the cognitive subconscious. For me, thinking involves an active mental engagement with something, more than just mental imagery. But that's just me.

Yes, this subject is full of fuzzy definitions. Isn't thought anything that passes through the conscious mind? "I just had a thought: I'm hungry."
Even focus, concentration is only hitting the tennis ball.
To ponder is to ruminate about my favorite color, maybe.
But maybe "to speculate" gets us a little closer to what we're talking about?
Like what we must do with this fun question in logic:
===================
Of three prisoners in a certain jail, one had normal vision, the second had only one eye, and the third was totally blind. All were of at least average intelligence.
The jailer told the prisoners that from three white hats and two red hats he would select three and put them on the prisoners' heads. Each was prevented from seeing what color hat was placed on his own head. They were brought together, and the jailer offered freedom to the prisoner with normal vision if he could tell what color hat was on his head.
The prisoner confessed that he couldn't tell.
Next the jailer offered freedom to the prisoner with only one eye if he could tell what color hat was on his head. The second prisoner confessed that he couldn't tell.
The jailer did not bother making the offer to the blind prisoner but agreed to extend the same terms to him when he made the request. The blind prisoner then smiled broadly and said:

"I do not need to have my sight:
From what my friends with eyes have said,
I clearly see my hat is ________!"

(My better half tossed his head, an impossible problem, he believed, not even worth "thinking" about, lol.)

 

[JustDave]

Yes, this subject is full of fuzzy definitions.

That should not be a surprise considering we lack the understanding of how a wad of biological brain matter can generate consciousness. Our understanding of that particular phenomenon can't even approach the level of "fuzzy." How much clarity can we expect in a discussion about the subject?

Evolution is a marvel. It doesn't even know what it's doing, and the end result is life that knows that it's knowing. Science can't do that, but then it doesn't have the advantage of being around for 5 billion years to experiment.

 

[MarkD]

Yes, this subject is full of fuzzy definitions. Isn't thought anything that passes through the conscious mind? "I just had a thought: I'm hungry."
Even focus, concentration is only hitting the tennis ball.
To ponder is to ruminate about my favorite color, maybe.
But maybe "to speculate" gets us a little closer to what we're talking about?
Like what we must do with this fun question in logic:
===================
Of three prisoners in a certain jail, one had normal vision, the second had only one eye, and the third was totally blind. All were of at least average intelligence.
The jailer told the prisoners that from three white hats and two red hats he would select three and put them on the prisoners' heads. Each was prevented from seeing what color hat was placed on his own head. They were brought together, and the jailer offered freedom to the prisoner with normal vision if he could tell what color hat was on his head.
The prisoner confessed that he couldn't tell.
Next the jailer offered freedom to the prisoner with only one eye if he could tell what color hat was on his head. The second prisoner confessed that he couldn't tell.
The jailer did not bother making the offer to the blind prisoner but agreed to extend the same terms to him when he made the request. The blind prisoner then smiled broadly and said:

"I do not need to have my sight:
From what my friends with eyes have said,
I clearly see my hat is ________!"

(My better half tossed his head, an impossible problem, he believed, not even worth "thinking" about, lol.)

I’m not sure how the blind prisoner can be certain the color of his own hat. The sighted prisoners would not know their own hats color if they see 1 red and 1 white or if they saw 2 white hats. In fact they can only be sure if they see 2 red hats in which case they’d know their own hat was white. So the fact that they are not sure means neither sees two red. But that is compatible with all three prisoners (including the blind prisoner) having on a white hat or with the the two sighted prisoners having on a red hat and the blind prisoner having on a white hat.

Oh, never mind. Yes the blind prisoner can be sure his hat is
.

I guess spoiler tags don't work here?

 

[bobcat]

It appears there is no universal definition of thinking or thought, except to say that thought is the product of thinking.
In some ways, one might say that computers and AI thinks, but not like humans. It may be better described as calculates.

As far as I know it doesn't deliberate on something it has concluded, and then change it's mind after thinking it over.
It can generate almost any image, and modify it, and know most everything about it, or have access to information on any subject, for that matter, but it is still a mirror, not a mind. It doesn't have a personal view, as we do. It doesn't actually believe anything, even though it may be presented to us in that framework.

So, even though it does most of the same things we do that qualify as thinking, it isn't truly a "free" thinker. Maybe that will change soon, and AI will have it's own created thoughts. Won't that be something?