Contemplating the vastness of the cosmos & is everything beyond reach?

Naturally said:
From where we stand today, interstellar travel looks exactly like sailing across an ocean once looked to people who had never seen a boat. It looks impossible because we haven’t built the tools yet.

Voyager 1 is essentially a late-70s station wagon with a radio dish. It isn’t representative of what future propulsion might look like.

Energy is the real bottleneck. Here are a few things being considered for development ...

Laser sail propulsion (Breakthrough Starshot)
Fusion propulsion
Antimatter catalyzed propulsion
Black hole radiation drives, beamed energy networks, inertial confinement drives

The real question isn’t whether interstellar travel will be possible.
It’s whether we can endure long enough to see the technologies develop.
And if we can accomplish that goal, the question might become, why go anywhere else.
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Well, we may be able to reach speeds faster than those known today with new propulsion, but reaching the speed of light is a physical impossibility no matter what you use. We would do well with a little magic on our side to even reach half the speed of light.
 

Gardenlover said:
Imagine the universe as a giant fabric stretched flat. If you want to go from point A to point B across that fabric, normally you’d have to travel across the surface which is slow, long, and currently limited by light-speed.

But if you fold the fabric, suddenly points that were far apart become adjacent. You don’t cross the distance—you jump because the distance itself has been reduced.

Perhaps worm holes or black holes allow the folding of space.
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So far they have not been found to exist, but if they did, there would be immense challenges ahead, keeping it stable and from collapsing. It would take some sort of exotic negative energy not found in nature. It's a great idea theoretically, but probably a dead end.
 
I do not believe we will survive as a species long enough to create the technology to expand out into the universe. Most civilizations self destruct or are destroyed by natural events. We are well on our way to self destructing. I'm a fan of science fiction which usually solves FTL travel with some kind of wormhole effect. Don't see that happening anytime soon either. Even if we solve near light speed travel we are never leaving this tiny speck that is our corner of the galaxy.

As for reaching the end of the known universe, astronomers say the universe is expanding faster than the speed of light. If true, even if you somehow started at the edge, it would instantaneously become out of reach. Maybe after you die physics no longer applies and you can travel to places like that. I can't imagine passing up on that and instead hanging around haunting some old house so maybe not.

I think the most likely scenario is that 36 mile long habitat that would slowly reach the nearest star, eventually. But the probability of there being a habitable world there seems a bit slim. They would be stuck in the craft forever or until it failed (if it didn't fail on the trip there). That's only if we could even begin to build such a complex machine that would function for thousands of years. Again, not likely in the time we have. We are more likely to go to mars and live under domes all named after Elon Musk.

Or maybe we should be concentrating on fixing the only world we will probably ever inhabit. This one. With all the effort it would take to leave we could make it unnecessary to make the trip.
 

bobcat said:
Well, we may be able to reach speeds faster than those known today with new propulsion, but reaching the speed of light is a physical impossibility no matter what you use. We would do well with a little magic on our side to even reach half the speed of light.
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I’m convinced the only way we’re hittin' even half the speed of light is if a magician-physicist shows up with a degree in making the impossible someone else’s problem and a minor in abracadabra hocus-pocus dynamics. If s/he can snag me a window seat on that ride, I’m buying the next round, even if the bar’s in another galaxy. Just poke me awake when we dock ~~~
 
Indeed... space distances are too vast for organic beings that are too fragile, too dependent on other Earth life, and too short lived. If that was not true, given billions of star systems in billions of galaxies of our known universe, it is likely Earth would be long ago visited. Or at least we humans would see signs of past visits beyond the unconvincing ones there are. Instead, the vast distances protect us from other potentially dangerous intelligent entities. And those entities to minimally travel beyond planets, are far far more likely to be inorganic, robotic AI like.

So sorry you scifi fans, but no No and NO, it is far more likely light speed is a real limit even for the most advanced entities.

As the Rare Earth hypothesis states, primitive life may be abundant in the universe while multicellular life is likely rare, and intelligent life extremely rare. But once a single race of intelligent species rises, and doesn't destroy itself, it will likely over millions of years dominate the galaxy region it exists within and make sure any nearby suitable planets have similar life. And may in fact become involved in life planet building,

If advanced intelligent entities had solved light speed travel, it is highly likely aliens would have long ago visited and even migrated here. Since that seemingly has not happened, nor are there reasonable signs, Earth is either one of their quarantined biological zoos, or robotic visits are rare due to vast distances.

A race of intelligent creatures on a planet, would send out looping self repairing robotic probes to other nearby planets of a galaxy region that over a few million years would have cataloged what was visitable. Only exoplanets in water habitable zones with similar DNA based life would be of any long term value or interest.

Thus, the first such civilization in galaxy regions would likely via direct panspermia make sure all those nearby suitable planets were carbon organic DNA based. Eventually as DNA life evolved, they might introduce multicellular life much like the Cambrian Explosion shows happened on Earth. Regardless, the immensely complex path of evolved life on any isolated DNA life planet given immense periods of time, is certain to vary greatly in structural and chemical ways.

Earth eukaryota animal life, especially large creatures, have symbiotic chemical relationships with myriad bacterial and virus species. Without gut bacteria, we would soon be ill and die. Yes, we are walking zoos capable of contaminating any planet we visit. So prokaryote bacterial and virus life would also need to be somewhat compatible. Otherwise, visiting alien organic entities might quickly be either consumed or contaminate, destroying resident life.

The Earth creature phenomenon people and many neuro scientists still don't understand, is that mind in all intelligent animals including homo sapiens, is an electromagnetic field within the impedance containers of water wet electrolyte brains. Without that active field, creatures have no more intelligence than a carrot. Advanced entities seeking immortality, would have solved the technical problem of creating a similar field within essentially immortal, replaceable, non-organic impedance structures. Mortal death is the greatest problem with life loving existing organic entities.
 
bobcat said:
I saw somewhere a radical plan for a 36 mile long spacecraft design that would be for multi-generational travel. Many generations would live and die on the spaceship before it reaches a destination, perhaps a thousand years from now. It would be like a traveling city with a thousand or so inhabitants. People would go to work, go to the park, go out dining and dancing, etc..., and life would continue as normal as possible, except your city is hurtling through space. Good luck to the budget committee getting that expenditure through.
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A thousand humans living in a 36 mile long spacecraft with about 40 succeeding generations coming over a thousand years?

If the spacecraft weren't destroyed by a space accident of some sort, some of the humans within would blow up the craft or kill each other off in a war long before ever arriving at a destination.
 
bobcat said:
So far they have not been found to exist, but if they did, there would be immense challenges ahead, keeping it stable and from collapsing. It would take some sort of exotic negative energy not found in nature. It's a great idea theoretically, but probably a dead end.
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Dead ends are where surprises are born, it just takes looking at something differently. There are many doors, some are locked for now, but they all will eventually be opened. And who is to say we won't be trained or mentored on how to find the keys that open these locked doors?

It's rather glum to think we are the most advanced slugs in this marvelous creation. How often this limits us, it is our down fall.
 
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MoBeans and David 777 are the most realistic in their take on this subject. Try to even wrap your mind around, mathematically, how wide and long space is in numbers.

To consider, as well, all the space flotsam and jetsam one would try to dodge without being annihilated on an initial attempt is daunting.

Won't be done.
 
Lewkat said:
MoBeans and David 777 are the most realistic in their take on this subject. Try to even wrap your mind around, mathematically, how wide and long space is in numbers.

To consider, as well, all the space flotsam and jetsam one would try to dodge without being annihilated on an initial attempt is daunting.

Won't be done.
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I beg to differ. But that and eight dollars will get you a cup of coffee.
 
If you've ever seen the night sky in a place with no light pollution, you wonder how astrophysicists can distnguish one body from another let alone determine its distance.
Then, how did they determine we were in a galaxy? How do they see the "forest through the trees"?

I'm not really interested in the answers because the stars and other celestial bodies don't interest me. But seriously how can they speak with such certainty about what seems like it could be interpreted in so many various ways? If Pluto can be a planet to one generation but not to another, what else are scientists wrong in assuming?
 
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OldFeller said:
If you've ever seen the night sky in a place with no light pollution, you wonder how astrophysicists can distnguish one body from another let alone determine its distance.
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On my single handed voyage to Hawaii, when the moon was gone, I had that exact experience. Just identifying a constellation was difficult. I knew I would have a better view of the sky away from all the pollution and incidental light, but I was still surprised.
OldFeller said:
Then, how did they determine we were in a galaxy? How do they see the "forest through the trees"?

I'm not really interested in the answers because the stars and other celestial bodies don't interest me. But seriously how can they speak with such certainty about what seems like it could be interpreted in so many vaeious ways? If Pluto can be a planet to one generation but to another, what else are scientists wrong in assuming?
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Science does not claim certainty. It evolves and constantly corrects course. You may not be interested in the answers. But just because we don't understand doesn't disqualify the experts. They still know more than we do. It's true they don't know everything, but they understand that. There are exceptions of course.
 
It seems that humans just aren't cut out for long distance space travel due to our fragility and life sustaining needs (Food, water, oxygen, temperature, shielding from radiation, and just staying healthy). However, AI robotics and androids are far less vulnerable, and may be the better choice for traversing the cosmos.

If they are self-repairing, they appear to be a much better candidate for space exploration. They could even power down for long voyages. We are busy looking for planets that might support organic life, but they don't really need those requirements. Granted, they may need a mineral rich planet, but still less needs than humans. This opens up a lot more possibilities. We may be looking for planets with oxygen and water, and we don't need to.

We don't know how to download consciousness yet, but perhaps it isn't even necessary. They may develop their own version of consciousness that is adequate or perhaps even superior. We may enjoy some of the feelings emotions provide, but they also cause a lot of problems, so maybe it's an equitable trade-off. There are always challenges that must be overcome, but they may be far less with robotics.
 
I must admit that I'm surprised no-one else on here seems to have seen on TV the 'Ancient Aliens' series of programmes. I've watched many of them (if not all!) and the constant theme is one of discovering how the ancients built things that even now we can't replicate with our current toolset.

As such, I think it's entirely possible that we humans are not the original intelligent inhabitants of this planet, and that there are others who have been here longer than us, but who up until recently, were safely out of our sight. However, now that we have flight, and radar, and all the myriad electronic tools that we've developed over the last 80 years, we are seeing more and more instances of both undersea and aerial phenomena that are being recorded on radar, on video, and on infrared recording equipment.

These phenomena are not of human origin, but are vehicles powered by as yet unknown methods and fuels, and containing non-human entities that may or may not be android in nature. There is very strong evidence that humans now have some of these strange vehicles in our possession, and that reverse engineering is being carried out in order to allow us to build similarly powered vehicles that will give us access to space. So to say that humans won't go to Mars is I think rather short-sighted. Furthermore, to say that we won't send volunteers out into the cosmos is also short-sighted.

If we can stop fighting each other long enough to collaborate on space exploration, then there is a whole asteroid belt between Mars and Jupiter that can be explored and exploited for minerals, some of which may never have existed on Earth. Furthermore, we may find that some of those exotic minerals will allow us to power machines much more quickly and cleanly than burning chemicals in rocket engines currently does.

So please don't be so negative about the future. All is not lost, but the current political climate worldwide is such that even daydreaming about space travel is becoming more and more daunting.
 
Been There said:
The universe is endless to the best of man’s knowledge. As far as man knows, there is no physical boundary to the end of the universe, so there is no need to make an attempt to try to reach it. What lies beyond the furtherest point as we know, which is 46.5 billion miles, will always remain “The Unknown” or “The Abyss.” What would be the point to knowing where the end is and if there is any life there if we would reach it?
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The point is the furtherance and passing on of knowledge.
 
BJintheUK said:
I must admit that I'm surprised no-one else on here seems to have seen on TV the 'Ancient Aliens' series of programmes. I've watched many of them (if not all!) and the constant theme is one of discovering how the ancients built things that even now we can't replicate with our current toolset.

As such, I think it's entirely possible that we humans are not the original intelligent inhabitants of this planet, and that there are others who have been here longer than us, but who up until recently, were safely out of our sight. However, now that we have flight, and radar, and all the myriad electronic tools that we've developed over the last 80 years, we are seeing more and more instances of both undersea and aerial phenomena that are being recorded on radar, on video, and on infrared recording equipment.

These phenomena are not of human origin, but are vehicles powered by as yet unknown methods and fuels, and containing non-human entities that may or may not be android in nature. There is very strong evidence that humans now have some of these strange vehicles in our possession, and that reverse engineering is being carried out in order to allow us to build similarly powered vehicles that will give us access to space. So to say that humans won't go to Mars is I think rather short-sighted. Furthermore, to say that we won't send volunteers out into the cosmos is also short-sighted.

If we can stop fighting each other long enough to collaborate on space exploration, then there is a whole asteroid belt between Mars and Jupiter that can be explored and exploited for minerals, some of which may never have existed on Earth. Furthermore, we may find that some of those exotic minerals will allow us to power machines much more quickly and cleanly than burning chemicals in rocket engines currently does.

So please don't be so negative about the future. All is not lost, but the current political climate worldwide is such that even daydreaming about space travel is becoming more and more daunting.
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I think you might be surprised what humans can accomplish with ingenuity, levers, ramps, pulleys, lubrication, and shallow ramps, and lots of manpower. Personally I have moved, lifted, and unloaded many things in my life using those and other methods that would be impossible for me otherwise.

Here's a video of 2 guys moving 95 tons on level ground for 100 ft. You need more bodies to go up a shallow ramp, but it can be done.

 
MoBeans said:
Or maybe we should be concentrating on fixing the only world we will probably ever inhabit. This one. With all the effort it would take to leave we could make it unnecessary to make the trip.
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Maybe the first thing to fix is human attitude/activities.

Studies that may hold hope for us are hydrogen-based energy, quantam technologies, computer science, ,,,
 
gruntlabor said:
Maybe the first thing to fix is human attitude/activities.

Studies that may hold hope for us are hydrogen-based energy, quantam technologies, computer science, ,,,
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I must admit I'm interested in the possibilities of quantum entanglement. Apparently two quantum items once entangled will mimic each other's state instantaneously, no matter how far apart they both are. As the modern world is run on binary maths ('0' and '1') this could mean instant digital communications across vast distances in space, and would allow for the possibility of remote controlled spacecraft and vehicles just about anywhere.

So for instance, the Mars rover sends back pictures from the red planet whenever NASA tells it to, but there's a delay of anything from 3 minutes to 22 minutes between sending the order and receiving the pictures. Furthermore, it takes time for the pictures to be assembled. Imagine if that delay all disappeared and you could drive your own Mars rover using a Virtual Reality headset and a video games hand controller. The difference that would make to any expedition is mind boggling.

Apart from anything else it would allow for robot expeditions in space that could be used for asteroid mining as well as discovery expeditions. So it's a definite tool that once mastered will allow us to move forward into space much more quickly.
 

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