We are still the light and dark side of things aren't we Polly?
I must have been in different company to most I guess. Those I worked with saw it much as I did.
I was always a cynic so didn't see the 'romantic Camelot fantasy', just another politician big-noting himself and flim-flamming the public with the help of his publicity machine.
If it's any surprise Warri, Churchill was none too popular in our house either, he was, to us, a warmongering old Pom who was using us as cannon fodder. He might have 'saved' England but he didn't do us any favours. We never did buy the romanticised version of 'heroes' that most did.
Things were as they were so I won't gloss over how and why I thought as I did. It's an explanation of where I was coming from, not an excuse for thinking that way. To great extent I still think much the same way, differently about some things, and tempered with a lot more understanding of why I think that way now. Also with the ability to recognise how much upbringing biases our thought processes, but overall, still cynical, jaded and suspicious of anything too good to be true.
We're the product of the environment we're raised with to an extent, and I was raised among the descendents of Belfast Irish and Snobby Scots. Neither of which had any great respect for the trappings of office, especially English office, and even less for religion in general and Catholics in particular.
Most Australians of that era had at least some English DNA and viewed things from a different perspective. But England was never 'home' to us. If anything, it was the 'enemy' of our forebears.
The mealtime discussion among the men was lefty biased politics, the manipulations by the Catholics in the unions and in politics, and when they had the spare time, the shortcomings and plain crookedness of the 'aristocracy' and rich people.
Poor ole JFK was a rich catholic, he didn't stand a chance in our house.
Neither did Churchill, but that's another longish story.
An uncle had served for a time attached to American forces in Borneo and while he always mentioned how grateful he was for a share of their rations (Aussies lived on tinned Bully-beef, hard biscuit, and a handful of tea leaves where he was stationed) and the ordinance they brought in (it was 2 day walk for resupply where he'd been stationed) he brought back some strange tales of their different attitudes and seemingly boastful and somewhat, to him, grating behaviour.
They were just so different to how things were done here back then. He was a country boy of the Great Depression era, he just couldn't stand a 'braggard', that was anethema in our culture back then.
Patriotism was something you carried in your heart, not your mouth, and you fought if you felt it strongly enough, and most did, and fled if you didn't. End of section. You didn't talk about it. It wasn't a badge that was worn or proclaimed loudly and publicly as a status symbol. Political affiliations were proclaimed proudly, patriotism was not, it was taken for granted.
If anyone had announced loudly in a bar that they were a 'proud Australian' he'd have found himself alone as some kind of nut case.
Anyone considered a BS artist or bragger was usually dished up behind a shed somewhere to teach them manners and bit of humility. We were quietly respectful of those who deserved it and loudly critical of those who didn't. No one needed to blow their own trumpet, their peers and friends would advise them of their status in no uncertain terms. We pulled no punches and were a largely bullsh*t free zone back then, so American culture was still more than a little alien to us.
American politics was
totally alien to us! (We're still trying to get our heads around it.
)
Kennedy, as the leader of that culture, was presumed to be the biggest brag artist of all and seen, by us, as using patriotism, his military record and cutesy 'Camelot' persona as a marketing tool.
That's how things were seen in our house around the late 40s to 60s when I was growing up. Others would have viewed it differently perhaps, depending on what mealtime discussions they were raised with.
Don't take it personal, Royalty was treated with total disdain too. It was a very pragmatic family I grew up in, where fantasy and entertainment was enjoyed but never, ever, mistaken as being the real thing. Nothing was accepted at face value alone.
Soooo... we/I saw American politicians in that flag waving, brass band, chest thumping, BS light and Kennedy was just a poser pretending to be more than he was, to me.
Most seem to have seen him as holding the fort against the Commos, I just saw him as challenging the dogs of war to a stoush to protect his vested interest. To me he wasn't doing that upholding the virtues of freedom thing so much as protecting the business interests of his dynasty and risking the lives of others to do it. See? Told you I was terminally cynical.
I didn't share Max's faith in "the MAD scenario, - Mutually Assured Destruction," theory as being any deterrent to a psycho general or politician of any Nationality.
As I got better educated than I had been at home and at school I began to view things in more detail and rationalize more but still find it hard to get past that initial opinion of the Kennedys. Sorry.
As I grew older I met more and more Americans and they weren't nearly as 'grating' as those portrayed by my even more cynical uncle, still coming from a slightly different angle to us, but more like us basically than ever dreamed of back when I was just 2 years out of school.
I still see your politicians as empty posers though, but then I see ours that way too.
Ding Ding Ding. Ain't that the truth?! We certainly aren't going to learn anything from our media or Governments.
No offence offered or taken Katy, I consider you a friend so this is an honest expression of how I view things.
You wondered why people in an allied country felt differently, well, obviously not all of us did, just cynics like me.
But why does this documentary's theory surprise you all so much? Do you ask yourself why this theory is taken as 'a slap in the face for your Country' as mentioned elsewhere? Why is it a 'slap in the face?' Who is slapping you?
What does that mean exactly? Was Max right? is it the old "you can't handle the truth" syndrome?
I think I'd rather be cynical and never be surprised at the depths people sink to than be a Pollyanna and get devastated that things aren't as pretty as we imagined. But that's just me.
While I'm being brutally honest I'll add this. .. and this is 'the view from here', not necessarily right or anyone else's just as I see it.
Maybe the hurt surprise is because the World always took a lot more interest in the US than people in the US ever took in the rest of the World. Your population seemed to dwell on a cloud above, and disconnected to the rest of us.
America
was the world and nothing else mattered enough to bother about except if it had scenery.
Your government was always right. It's motives were always virtuous, in God you trusted so if a gesture of 'liberating' some Country went tits-up then it didn't matter, at least the intentions were good from an American perspective so it must have been the 'right thing' regardless of the opinions of those being liberated. You believed unflinchingly in the patriotism and 'good' in your Government Authorities. Well, up until around the 60s anyway. You were the richest and most powerful Nation on Earth so why bother looking anywhere else?
Well, perhaps the World has changed while you weren't watching it ?
Maybe the shock of waking from the pleasant dream is setting in.
.....You know that's all just generalization to paint a naive picture of a complex issue I hope.
I don't know of any here who actually fit that picture now, but it did seem the norm until a few decades ago, and judging from what we see on Facebook sometimes, it still is for some there.
These differing views of things from other quarters may come as a surprise to many Americans because they've been living in a bubble of tradition, propaganda and parochial bullshit for centuries. The internet has set you all free it seems. Hallelujah for that!
We can speak to each other now as people that we like and connect with at personal level and not just as walking talking advertisements for our own Countries.
I've noticed a radical change in thinking, just on forums, over the last few years. Welcome to the REAL world Americans, glad you could join us. You'll like it here but things aren't always as you're told they are. We've just had more time to get used to knowing that we are being blatantly lied to than you have.
That 'policeman' that the States has been to the World isn't seen as the ray of hope it was in the past, and it was very real and appreciated in the past. Sadly, that 'policeman' is being seen much like an LA cop by many these days.
Regardless of how you take my honest comments here, you can believe that I am every bit as gutted about how that's gone as any of you are.
I keep hearing amazed tones from posters wondering why the world doesn't 'like' America any more. Well, maybe it isn't the America we liked any more.
Maybe America is trying too hard to be something it isn't any more. It's going broke keeping up unnecessary appearances.
It diddles about with the world's economies over some piddling political point and wonders why the World is losing faith in it's leadership and thinking of switching currency standards. What's puzzling about that?
It blazes into places better left to rot and drags the rest of us in with it and then gets hurt feelings about protests about that form of 'diplomacy.'
If anyone knows why we are really in Iraq could they please raise their hand? Is America profiting ethically or financially from that adventure? We sure aren't, but we're there with you. Excuse our confusion as to why, because it still beats me. Was the revenge to restore National pride worth the lives paid??
Maybe it's time for a reality check all round, and a change of attitude from defending traditions of greatness to changing down gears a bit to suit the changing circumstances. We didn't want to change either, no one does, but it happens eventually to every Nation throughout history. Little quiet ones seem to last longer than bright shiny ones. Empires crumble disastrously, small countries just suffer the ripples and continue on unnoticed.
The internet allows you to learn what is bugging people elsewhere via honestly posted opinions and explanations from other Countries.
Most won't do it because they are afraid to offend.
I am too, and desperately hope that the above hasn't offended, it wasn't meant to, it was meant to explain reasons for views expressed, nothing more.
I'm louder 'mouthed' than most so I've taken the punt to put it out there.
I'm being honestly forthright because I like and respect you too much to patronize you with platitudes and PC politeness. If you ask me a question on my views then I'll answer it honestly, like it or not.
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Feel free to do likewise if we could do with some 'explaining' too. I'm sure there's plenty to find.
That's what we need to do among friends. Better them explain feelings about things to us than enemies.
Don't be surprised or offended that the States isn't perfect. It never was.
Nowhere is. The danger lies in believing that it is. Love it because it's yours and you belong to it, not because it's 'better' than somewhere else. It doesn't have to be.
Oh, and buy yourselves some better bullshit alarms, you're gonna need 'em. Politicians keep breeding!
I was just messin' with Warri. 
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