Shooting in Vegas

[Camper6]

I live in Canada. I have a gun but it's a gas powered pellet gun. It looks like a Luger. Holds 50 shots. Might be a deterrent. I don't know. Haven't had to use it once. But I like target shooting.

If I lived in the U.S. I would definitely be a gun owner. A handgun. Too many others around packing them to be comfortable without one.

The argument though seems to be around guns like the AR-15 which is the source of mass shootings.

 

[Smiling Jane]

I wonder why so many people think their home will be "invaded"?? By whom?

Please tell me you're joking and that you're not a troll. In the U.S., people's homes are being invaded by gangs of armed thugs. After they kick in windows or doors to gain access, they take anything of value, often beating the owners of the properties (knowing the police won't investigate as thoroughly if they don't kill). They prey on the elderly and others who can't defend themselves.

We have no idea where you live, so any reference you make to "here" means absolutely nothing. Your avatar is the St. George flag, so an assumption could be made that you're English. That's only an assumption. Why would you pretend to expertise on anything happening in the U.S. when it's obvious you don't have the most basic clue?

 

[Camper6]

Please tell me you're joking and that you're not a troll. In the U.S., people's homes are being invaded by gangs of armed thugs. After they kick in windows or doors to gain access, they take anything of value, often beating the owners of the properties (knowing the police won't investigate as thoroughly if they don't kill). They prey on the elderly and others who can't defend themselves.

We have no idea where you live, so any reference you make to "here" means absolutely nothing. Your avatar is the St. George flag, so an assumption could be made that you're English. That's only an assumption. Why would you pretend to expertise on anything happening in the U.S. when it's obvious you don't have the most basic clue?

I get the same argument that I don't live there so I don't know what I am talking about.

However, this is an international forum and is open to all comments.

And in my case. I live in Canada. We get all the news from the U.S. on our cable. I have family living there. And I do have a clue.

As far as home invasions go.? Smart thieves wait till no one is home. And they steal the weapons.

 

[Cap'n Mike]

Yes I am in England, thank goodness Smiling Jane.
The picture you paint of life in the US is horrific! I do not pretend to anything, I just read the papers and listen to the tragic news almost daily from the US.
When I read that there are 12,000 gun homicides every year in the US, I despair.
How much longer are the American people going to put up with this slaughter? How many more have to die? I just don't understand how you can all live with this.

 

[Smiling Jane]

In all of the recent home invasions in my area, the elderly victims were at home when the invasions took place. When you prey on the elderly, they're likely to be home except for errands and appointments. The perpetrators know the best time to invade a home is between shift changes at the police department. From about 10:00 to 11:00 p.m., chaos reigns. The thieves aren't only there to steal people's possessions, they take cash, jewelry and credit cards, those things people are likely to have in their possession when they go out.

You might want to go back and read the post by Cap'n Mike that I objected to. He questioned the existence of home invasions, which led me to believe he's clueless. Just because such a phenomenon does not occur where you live, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

I have never questioned your right to post or your knowledge about subject matter, so leave me out of the group against whom you feel required to defend yourself.

 

[Cap'n Mike]

Eh? I don't follow you? I have never questioned your obvious knowledge of what goes on in your area, why should I, I am just horrified by it all and I have certainly never questioned your right to post either! Where do you get that from???
Jeeees, I though this was a friendly forum, guess I was wrong. Keep smiling Jane!

 

[Shalimar]

As a Canuck, I can understand why people from other countries are sometimes puzzled by certain aspects of American culture. Perhaps we view bearing arms in a different light, and many of us don't understand the escalating level of violence and mass

shootings that occur. I don't believe that makes us clueless, but we have different culture norms, and many of us worry about the good people of America. I certainly do. I think I understand Cap'n Mike's point of view, and I don't believe for a moment he is a troll. Perhaps this is a misunderstanding?

 

[Aunt Bea]

Eh? I don't follow you? I have never questioned your obvious knowledge of what goes on in your area, why should I, I am just horrified by it all and I have certainly never questioned your right to post either! Where do you get that from???
Jeeees, I though this was a friendly forum, guess I was wrong. Keep smiling Jane!

I understand the point that you were trying to make and I tend to agree. It reminds me of the Butter Battle Book by Dr. Seuss, if you have a gun, I need a bigger gun, and so it goes.

We have home invasions from time to time but I have never heard of a case, in my area, where the people did not know each other or have some sort of criminal enterprise in common. Last night we had four shootings in my city all within five miles of my apartment and all involving people who knew each other. I still do not feel that owning a gun would make me safer or offer any real protection. I put my faith in good locks and a very low key lifestyle.

I support the constitutional right of Americans to own and bear arms with some exceptions and controls, the old slippery slope.

Stick around and get to know us a little better before you write us off.

 

[Cap'n Mike]

Hey Shalimar, Aunt Bea. Thanks. The good citizens of the US must realise that it is a very foreign culture to anybody who wasn't borne and bred American. I just find it heartbreaking to continually read about innocent people getting killed for usually, no good reason. Yes we've had the occasional nut case with suicide bombs but very few and far between thank goodness. We get stabbings now and then and of course the latest terror tactic is to drive a vehicle onto the pavement and try to kill people.

 

[Don M.]

Why are they not forced to have secure storage for their guns? Here, even for a shotgun you have to show the police that you have two separate, secure storage for the gun and for the ammunition. They must not be kept together and ideally the amo storage is hidden, under the floor or similar. And that's just for a shotgun. There is no way one can get a licence for a military type gun or pistol of any kind unless you are a member of a shooting club and then the guns have to be kept at the club, not at home. wonder why so many people think their home will be "invaded"?? By whom?

Mike...There is increasingly TWO America's. One is fairly safe and stable, with a low amount of crime...and that is the majority. Then, there is the Other America...mostly located in and around the inner cities, where the Real Authority is the Street and Drug gangs. It is a rare day when there aren't shootings and murders reported in those areas. The honest people living in those areas have to constantly fear being mugged or robbed by the scumbags who will go to any lengths to support their illegal drug addictions. Then, there are incidents such as this recent Las Vegas slaughter that makes absolutely no sense....even after a week, the police have no idea what set this lunatic off.

It's easy to blame guns for this havoc, but the real reasons go far beyond just guns. We have millions of people who are unemployed, or underemployed, and many millions who believe that the world owes them a living. We have Latino drug gangs such as MS-13 that totally rule their "jurisdictions", and the people who live there are scared to even talk to the police, for fear that they will be murdered for doing so.

Guns are the "tool of choice" for these thugs, but the vast majority of gun owners will never use their weapons in an illegal manner. Millions of us love to hunt, and that is the only time our weapons see any use. The area we live in is very rural, and it is the rare household that Does Not have firearms....but the Only murder that has taken place within 50 miles of us, over the past 15 years, was when some lady shot her abusive husband...and the jury ruled it justified. If any of this Inner City Trash ever tried to come into this area and cause problems, they would be committing suicide.

If you are from England, you have no idea of what it would be like to live in some of our cities. England, after all, is almost 95% of European ethnicity, populated by people who have centuries of civility to draw upon. Perhaps, if England, and Europe continues to invite millions of Middle East refugees into it's midst, you may someday gain an understanding of what it is like to have a major share of your population which does Not share your values.

 

[Cap'n Mike]

Many thanks Don M, most informative.
This is what I was hoping to get from the forum, a better understanding of just what the hell is going on in the world from the people who live there.
We are definitely somewhat cocooned in the UK and can only go by what we read, and of course that will always be the bad stuff, good stuff isn't news!

 

[Smiling Jane]

Mike...There is increasingly TWO America's. One is fairly safe and stable, with a low amount of crime...and that is the majority. Then, there is the Other America...mostly located in and around the inner cities, where the Real Authority is the Street and Drug gangs. It is a rare day when there aren't shootings and murders reported in those areas. The honest people living in those areas have to constantly fear being mugged or robbed by the scumbags who will go to any lengths to support their illegal drug addictions.

I live in Albuquerque, a city that because of its proximity to Los Angeles, has for a long time been inundated with a series of increasingly violent LA street gangs. Because of our proximity to Mexico and its drug cartels, this city has become a hub for illegal drugs. I don't live in the inner city, but you don't have to be an inner-city dweller to be a victim of either kind of gang violence. These groups prey on any vulnerable group of people. We have lots of vulnerable people, partly because many people choose to retire here.

Another factor is meth, which has created enormous problems for those who live in this city.

When the freeway system was created, it was seen as a good thing with no drawbacks. I see it as a major drawback because it allows easy access to those areas that are being targeted by the gangs. Not only does it provide criminals with access, it makes it much easier for them to evade the police after their crimes. All they have to do is steal a car and they can go anywhere they want without little threat of detection, then they ditch the stolen car when they're finished with it.

Now that it is becoming more difficult for people to get prescription opioids, I can only imagine the repercussions we'll see from people stealing to keep their opioid addictions going.

 

[Camper6]

I post on another forum. All politics. I find out that the gun owners don't want to be told about any problems arising from guns.

They get very defensive and abusive. Even on this forum the political forum has been dropped.

what can I say. If you are happy with your system keep on trucking.

I just don't understand how you put up with it. My family lives there so I'm keenly interested in developments.

if I lived in the U.S. I would definitely have a gun to protect myself.

Frontier mentality. If I said that on the other forum I belong to I would be raked over the coals.

 

[Smiling Jane]

I post on another forum. All politics. I find out that the gun owners don't want to be told about any problems arising from guns.

They get very defensive and abusive. Even on this forum the political forum has been dropped.

what can I say. If you are happy with your system keep on trucking.

I just don't understand how you put up with it.

Please provide specific instructions to change our system.

Much obliged.

 

[Big Horn]

I do not understand what makes gun violence so bad, but violence with knives, clubs, fists, etc. is so civilized. Yes, I posted this link earlier. They just said that it couldn't be true—but it is.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ry-Europe-Britain-worse-South-Africa-U-S.html

 

[Warrigal]

We have home invasions in Sydney from time to time but mostly the homes are not chosen at random. Elderly people often make the mistake of keeping a lot of cash at home and are sometimes indiscreet about who they tell about it. Also when a woman has a lot of expensive jewellery the home is more likely to be a target. Otherwise, most of the home invasions that occur are gang related, at both ends. The same for drive by shooting at houses. There are gang members inside the house and inside the car.

I was once waiting to be empanelled in a jury for a home invasion case (but my number was not called out). The victims were two young women. The perp held them up with a replica gun, stole money and jewellery but did not harm them in any way. They were shocked and frightened, no doubt.

Reading the above, you can get an idea why I don't want a gun for self protection. The harm that could occur from having one in the house far outweighs the likelihood of my ever needing one.

I am not the only person who thinks this way.

This article in The Atlantic makes the same point.

https://www.theatlantic.com/nationa...-the-irrational-fear-of-home-invasion/266613/

These paragraphs in particular make the point that deaths by gun, including suicides, far surpass homicides from home invasions.

You mentioned the risk of home invasion, and the realistic fear that the cops just wouldn't get there in time. That's obviously a primeval motive to have a gun by the bedside or whatever.

But the fear is also easily out of proportion to the threat. I had the Chicago police run the number on homicides. In 2011, precisely one homicide listed "burglary" as the motive. Nationwide, there are about 100 burglary-homicides every year. When you compare that to more than 18,000 gun suicides, the conclusions seem pretty obvious.


Home protection provides a common, all-too-understandable motive to buy a gun. Few things are scarier than the possibility that some violent intruder will break in when you and your loved-ones are home. This risk happens to be especially vivid for me. My gentle disabled cousin was beaten to death by two teenage burglars in his New York apartment thirty years ago.

Yet having guns around bring risks, too. Practically speaking, it's not the incredibly rare risk of mass homicide, but the everyday risks of injury, accident, domestic altercations, and suicide. The relative risks matter. And the fact is: lethal home invasions and burglaries are incredibly rare. You might not think so, since dramatic cases stick in your mind and tend to receive disproportionate press coverage. These cases are rare nonetheless.

 

[Camper6]

Please provide specific instructions to change our system.

Much obliged.

See what I mean.?

 

[Smiling Jane]

Warrigal, if you would like, I could post a string of articles about home invasions that apparently only exist in our minds. In browsing, I notice the local newspaper and TV stations don't report home invasions unless there are more exciting elements, like fatalities or SWAT stand-offs. Home invasions are apparently not dramatic enough to suit the commercial interests served by the media.

I hope you realize Chicago is over 1,000 miles away from where I live and NYC may as well be another country in terms of how different life is there. Both of those cities have a police presence that would be unheard of in most U.S. communities, and people in those cities live behind reinforced doors with multiple locks and windows covered with burglar bars. We didn't have to live like that until recently but the times they are a-changing.

I own a handgun and I'm not ashamed to admit it. I also have a permit to carry a concealed weapon. I've won trophies for marksmanship so I'm not concerned about hitting my target. I'm not suicidal, my gun has a good trigger guard and there are no children in or around my home. I've been shot and I don't want to recreate that experience.

 

[Smiling Jane]

See what I mean.?

I'm saying don't tell people to change their system without being willing to provide information to help us do it. Don't you think if we knew how, we would have done it before now?

 

[Warrigal]

Please provide specific instructions to change our system.

Much obliged.

Only Americans can change the American system but first they must want to change it.

When people like me post on this topic we are merely attempting to say that it doesn't have to be this way. The number of unnecessary deaths from firearms could be lowered. We point to an obvious problem, back up by global statistics, that in US there are an extraordinary number of guns in civilian hands and a corresponding number of deaths by firearms, including military style weapons.

But to answer your challenge about providing instructions.

First, acknowledge that there is a problem, then start a national conversation about solving it in a way that Americans can live with. Apply these four steps. On the other hand, if the number of deaths annually is acceptable to Americans there is no problem so be happy that the US is world leader in yet another field. After all, think of how many jobs it generates.

In problem solving, there are four basic steps.

• Define the problem. Diagnose the situation so that your focus is on the problem, not just its symptoms. ...
• Generate alternative solutions. ...
• Evaluate and select an alternative. ...
• Implement and follow up on the solution.

 

[Smiling Jane]

We've talked this to death. I honestly don't see any way to keep assault weapons out of the hands of those who are wealthy enough to buy them on the black market. Who could have predicted this latest massacre? A lone gunman, armed to the teeth, with no history that would make him a person of interest? No way. This many days later the police still don't know why he did it, so how could it have been predicted?

 

[Camper6]

We've talked this to death. I honestly don't see any way to keep assault weapons out of the hands of those who are wealthy enough to buy them on the black market. Who could have predicted this latest massacre? A lone gunman, armed to the teeth, with no history that would make him a person of interest? No way. This many days later the police still don't know why he did it, so how could it have been predicted?

You are correct. He had a hidden life. You can't predict it but now that it has happened you can learn from it.

I'm sure there will be scrutiny in the future or steps taken of some sort to mitigate the chance of it happening again in a similar arena.

I'm pretty sure there will be marksmen posted to fire on anyone shooting from a height like this guy did. That's the only thing that could have stopped him. He probably researched that as well.

I doubt anything will be done to prevent people from buying a semi automatic legally. That's what was used in previous mass murders.

 

[Butterfly]

In all of the recent home invasions in my area, the elderly victims were at home when the invasions took place. When you prey on the elderly, they're likely to be home except for errands and appointments. The perpetrators know the best time to invade a home is between shift changes at the police department. From about 10:00 to 11:00 p.m., chaos reigns. The thieves aren't only there to steal people's possessions, they take cash, jewelry and credit cards, those things people are likely to have in their possession when they go out.

You might want to go back and read the post by Cap'n Mike that I objected to. He questioned the existence of home invasions, which led me to believe he's clueless. Just because such a phenomenon does not occur where you live, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

I have never questioned your right to post or your knowledge about subject matter, so leave me out of the group against whom you feel required to defend yourself.

I agree with Jane. I live in the same city and home invasions ARE a problem here -- one of the reasons I have a firearm.

 

[Butterfly]

Hey Shalimar, Aunt Bea. Thanks. The good citizens of the US must realise that it is a very foreign culture to anybody who wasn't borne and bred American. I just find it heartbreaking to continually read about innocent people getting killed for usually, no good reason. Yes we've had the occasional nut case with suicide bombs but very few and far between thank goodness. We get stabbings now and then and of course the latest terror tactic is to drive a vehicle onto the pavement and try to kill people.

Don't forget the acid attacks I've read about lately.

 

[Butterfly]

I've heard many opinions expressed that we need to just get the guns out of our culture, as if we could just so "OK, now, everybody turn in your firearms" and the problem would solve itself. In the first place, I do not believe the law-abiding public would comply (I, for one, would not). Secondly, in the unlikely scenario that law-abiding citizens would comply, does anyone REALLY think that the violent street gangs, drug dealers and assorted other members of the criminal world would just peaceably give up their weapons? If you do, you are living in some kind of alternate reality wherein pigs fly.