Maybe read up on fossil fuel alternatives. We have solar panels on our house which cuts down on oil-based electricity. There's wind power, hybrid cars, etc. Doesn't make you give up anything.
One giant hoax
- Thread starter Traveler
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Maybe read up on fossil fuel alternatives. We have solar panels on our house which cuts down on oil-based electricity. There's wind power, hybrid cars, etc. Doesn't make you give up anything.
Traveler
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- Location
- San Diego County
Good point. I forgot about creationists. If they choose to deny hundreds of years of research by geologists, anthropologists, and paleontologists and numerous other disciplines, then that is their choice. However, the few years of research by those who claim man is responsible for any climate change is a very different matter. This entire concept of MAN CAUSED climate change is a new and unproven concept. At this stage of the game, climate change is merely a dubious hypothesis and still a very long way from a theory.
Knight
Well-known Member
Proven fact earth has gone thru cycles, but there is a difference now isn't there? Is mankind making an impact or not? Probably to anser that the 3 monkey rule of thumb applies. Hear nothing, see nothing & say nothing about what science is observing.
I look at Population 7 billion plus using carbon based fuel sources for just about everything. Rain forests being depleted. No real mystery or denial of how that impacts our planet. On the lighter side there are even some that buy into rockets sent into space are poking holes in the atmosphere.
This all by itself is kind of mind boggling to me.
Every day, the FAA's Air Traffic Organization (ATO) provides service to more than 42,000 flights and 2.5 million airline passengers across more than 29 million square miles of airspace. With an airspace system as vast and complex as ours, it is helpful to have an easy-to-reference source for relevant facts and information. View the infographic below for a glimpse into ATO, or for more information.
https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/by_the_numbers/
This I'm used to.
Freeway traffic in major cities around the globe awesome to see the quantity of people driving for whatever reason.
As I've posted before I'd like to be around in 100 years to see what takes place. Meanwhile what humans really have to curtail is the flatulance by cows waiting to be slaughtered.
I look at Population 7 billion plus using carbon based fuel sources for just about everything. Rain forests being depleted. No real mystery or denial of how that impacts our planet. On the lighter side there are even some that buy into rockets sent into space are poking holes in the atmosphere.
This all by itself is kind of mind boggling to me.
Every day, the FAA's Air Traffic Organization (ATO) provides service to more than 42,000 flights and 2.5 million airline passengers across more than 29 million square miles of airspace. With an airspace system as vast and complex as ours, it is helpful to have an easy-to-reference source for relevant facts and information. View the infographic below for a glimpse into ATO, or for more information.
https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/by_the_numbers/
This I'm used to.
Freeway traffic in major cities around the globe awesome to see the quantity of people driving for whatever reason.
As I've posted before I'd like to be around in 100 years to see what takes place. Meanwhile what humans really have to curtail is the flatulance by cows waiting to be slaughtered.
When I was a school boy, I learned that water EXPANDS when it FREEZES - that's why ice floats.
Traveler
Senior Member
- Location
- San Diego County
All of that is true. It, unfortunately, applies only to people with sufficient money to spare. A huge percentage of the earth's population has trouble staying housed and feeding their families. Those folks have about as much chance of buying solar panels and hybrid cars as I do of suddenly developing wings and taking flight.
In any event we have blow-hard politicians, like Al Gore, who wrote, "An Inconvenient Truth", preaching to us how we should live our lives, BUT that, of course, does not apply to him. He lives in an 8,500 sq, ft. home with the air-conditioning running 24/7 during the summer. And, if he wants to go somewhere, he just hops into his private jet and zooms off to do more preaching about "global warming".
Back a few years ago, when Senator Ted Kennedy was alive, he advocated for "green energy" such as wind turbines. But wait. Hold everything. It seems that did not mean within sight of HIS mansion on Cape Cod. He pulled every string to stop those wind turbines from ever being built.
Yeah, guys. Do as I say, not as I do. If they TRULY believed what they say, they would not merely talk the talk, they would walk the walk. So, why don't they? Quite simple, THEY DON'T TRULY BELIEVE A WORD THEY SAY. Ironic, isn't it ? The very people who advocate for green this, and green that, have convinced me that the whole thing is a hoax.
Again, you DON'T have to do anything. Solar and wind are being produced by power companies for their customers. Please read up on stuff instead of getting all wound up into unnecessary knots. Although, developing wings and taking flight might be just what you need.
Big Horn
Member
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- Cody, Wyoming
https://van.physics.illinois.edu/qa/listing.php?id=1524
https://water.usgs.gov/edu/density.html
See above.
No.
See USGS citation above.
Camper6
Well-known Member
- Location
- Northwestern Ontario Canada
Where does the power come from to build the solar panels and wind farms?
Nothing is free in this world.
Man power, maybe?
Camper6
Well-known Member
- Location
- Northwestern Ontario Canada
Not even manpower. If you don't eat you can't work.
I guess I missed something. Would you like to explain?
Warrigal
SF VIP
- Location
- Sydney, Australia
There is a small temperature range where water behaves anomalously but once the temperature exceeds about 3oC water behaves like any other liquid and expands when heated.
Yes, yes, of course. Sorry to be so slow on the uptake.
Yes, it means manpower which means jobs--paid jobs.
Warrigal
SF VIP
- Location
- Sydney, Australia
Thanks for your response, Big Horn. You have challenged me to rethink my sloppy reasoning.
Big Horn responded https://van.physics.illinois.edu/qa/listing.php?id=1524
Density = mass/volume. Adding salt, i.e. increasing the mass/unit volume increases the density because the volume is little affected by the addition of the ions but the mass of the ions does increase the mass and hence the density.
Adding fresh water from glaciers and Antarctic ice shelves lowers the salinity and therefore the mass/unit volume. If a fixed amount of saline water has extra water added to it due to melting, the level of the water will rise simply because of the extra water, but it will also be less dense and if it continues to warm it will expand and the level will rise even more as it expands in volume.
I see what you are getting at. When ice that is floating on the surface of water, say ice cubes or an iceberg/sea ice, the melt water will not have any effect on the water level because the ice has already displaced just about all of its volume of water and when it melts the melted ice will simply fit into the space left where the ice used to be. However, if the ice was out of the water like ice cubes from the fridge or ice flowing down from a glacier or continental ice sheet then this ice will cause the water level to rise when it melts because it is the same as simply pouring extra water from a tap into a glass of water and ice cubes.
See my addendum above My point being that the melt has to come from the land surface. Melting sea ice such as Arctic ice won't have much of an effect except on animals that depend on it.
No. No? I say yes.
If the ocean's surface warms locally because the natural heat exchange system is disrupted there will be more energy transmitted to large scale weather systems. i.e. bigger and more powerful hurricanes. These systems grow more powerful as a function of oceanic surface temperature and the time the system stays over the water.
See USGS citation above.
The above was not my contribution but I can provide an answer of sorts.
When a body of water begins to freeze the ice expands and being less (not more) dense than liquid water at 0oC, floats on the surface of the water. The surface layer thickens as more ice forms but hydraulic pressure keeps the liquid at greater depths in the liquid state. In addition, a thin layer of air is trapped between the water surface and the ice above it. It is this air layer that allows life to survive the freeze.
Hoping I have made myself clearer on my second attempt.
Originally Posted by Warrigal
Melting sea ice, which is fresh water if it is produced over land, does lower the salt content of the ocean. Less saline water is less dense than it is for higher concentrations and it therefore occupies greater volume. High school science says that the height of the water column must therefore increase, even without increase in temperature.
Big Horn responded https://van.physics.illinois.edu/qa/listing.php?id=1524
Density = mass/volume. Adding salt, i.e. increasing the mass/unit volume increases the density because the volume is little affected by the addition of the ions but the mass of the ions does increase the mass and hence the density.
Adding fresh water from glaciers and Antarctic ice shelves lowers the salinity and therefore the mass/unit volume. If a fixed amount of saline water has extra water added to it due to melting, the level of the water will rise simply because of the extra water, but it will also be less dense and if it continues to warm it will expand and the level will rise even more as it expands in volume.
https://water.usgs.gov/edu/density.htmlOriginally Posted by Warrigal
Add to that the effect of even a small increase in the overall temperature of the oceans. One degree of warming has occurred since the advent of the technological age. A lot of this warming has been absorbed by the oceans and again, school boy science tells us that liquids expand in volume when heated.
I see what you are getting at. When ice that is floating on the surface of water, say ice cubes or an iceberg/sea ice, the melt water will not have any effect on the water level because the ice has already displaced just about all of its volume of water and when it melts the melted ice will simply fit into the space left where the ice used to be. However, if the ice was out of the water like ice cubes from the fridge or ice flowing down from a glacier or continental ice sheet then this ice will cause the water level to rise when it melts because it is the same as simply pouring extra water from a tap into a glass of water and ice cubes.
See above.Originally Posted by Warrigal
I cannot predict mathematically how much sea levels have already risen or will rise in the future but I know that the answer has to be more than zero.
See my addendum above My point being that the melt has to come from the land surface. Melting sea ice such as Arctic ice won't have much of an effect except on animals that depend on it.
Originally Posted by Warrigal
If the Antarctic ice sheets disappear there will be an affect on the deep sea currents that flow north carrying nutrient from the ocean bottom until the water rises to the surface in the Northern Hemisphere. One effect will be on the fisheries of that region. The other will be that the hotter waters of that region will no longer mix with the cold and local warming will be apparent. When that happens we much just hold on tight for bigger and better cyclones/hurricanes heading for the land. Best we stop the temperature increases due to fossil fuels before then.
No. No? I say yes.
If the ocean's surface warms locally because the natural heat exchange system is disrupted there will be more energy transmitted to large scale weather systems. i.e. bigger and more powerful hurricanes. These systems grow more powerful as a function of oceanic surface temperature and the time the system stays over the water.
See USGS citation above.
The above was not my contribution but I can provide an answer of sorts.
When a body of water begins to freeze the ice expands and being less (not more) dense than liquid water at 0oC, floats on the surface of the water. The surface layer thickens as more ice forms but hydraulic pressure keeps the liquid at greater depths in the liquid state. In addition, a thin layer of air is trapped between the water surface and the ice above it. It is this air layer that allows life to survive the freeze.
Hoping I have made myself clearer on my second attempt.
Traveler
Senior Member
- Location
- San Diego County
Ah. I was wondering when the personal attacks would begin. So, no comment on the above.
Big Horn
Member
- Location
- Cody, Wyoming
Please supply citations for the above from universities or geological, biological, and oceanographic agencies.Thanks for your response, Big Horn. You have challenged me to rethink my sloppy reasoning.
Big Horn responded https://van.physics.illinois.edu/qa/listing.php?id=1524
Density = mass/volume. Adding salt, i.e. increasing the mass/unit volume increases the density because the volume is little affected by the addition of the ions but the mass of the ions does increase the mass and hence the density.
Adding fresh water from glaciers and Antarctic ice shelves lowers the salinity and therefore the mass/unit volume. If a fixed amount of saline water has extra water added to it due to melting, the level of the water will rise simply because of the extra water, but it will also be less dense and if it continues to warm it will expand and the level will rise even more as it expands in volume.
https://water.usgs.gov/edu/density.html
I see what you are getting at. When ice that is floating on the surface of water, say ice cubes or an iceberg/sea ice, the melt water will not have any effect on the water level because the ice has already displaced just about all of its volume of water and when it melts the melted ice will simply fit into the space left where the ice used to be. However, if the ice was out of the water like ice cubes from the fridge or ice flowing down from a glacier or continental ice sheet then this ice will cause the water level to rise when it melts because it is the same as simply pouring extra water from a tap into a glass of water and ice cubes.
See above.
See my addendum above My point being that the melt has to come from the land surface. Melting sea ice such as Arctic ice won't have much of an effect except on animals that depend on it.
No. No? I say yes.
If the ocean's surface warms locally because the natural heat exchange system is disrupted there will be more energy transmitted to large scale weather systems. i.e. bigger and more powerful hurricanes. These systems grow more powerful as a function of oceanic surface temperature and the time the system stays over the water.
See USGS citation above.
The above was not my contribution but I can provide an answer of sorts.
When a body of water begins to freeze the ice expands and being less (not more) dense than liquid water at 0oC, floats on the surface of the water. The surface layer thickens as more ice forms but hydraulic pressure keeps the liquid at greater depths in the liquid state. In addition, a thin layer of air is trapped between the water surface and the ice above it. It is this air layer that allows life to survive the freeze.
Hoping I have made myself clearer on my second attempt.
Warrigal
SF VIP
- Location
- Sydney, Australia
Not going to bother with that as it is late at night now.
Those were my own reasonings and the physics is rather elementary. A school text book would be sufficient. Try Google for a simple explanation.
Those were my own reasonings and the physics is rather elementary. A school text book would be sufficient. Try Google for a simple explanation.
dpwspringer
Member
- Location
- Georgia
school boy science tells us that liquids expand in volume when heated.
That's nice to know but ice is not a liquid. Water is a liquid and it does expand when heated and contract as it cools.
In a static state like a pond, the deeper you go the cooler the water. Here's a good test of what you learned in school: since the water at the bottom of a pond is cooler, why does ice form at the surface instead of the bottom of a pond?
Warrigal
SF VIP
- Location
- Sydney, Australia
Here is one simple explanation of the reason ice forms on the surface of a body of water.
The temperature gradient is not as simple as one might assume since water is a fluid and surface conditions are a bit different to lower layers.
The temperature gradient is not as simple as one might assume since water is a fluid and surface conditions are a bit different to lower layers.
Camper6
Well-known Member
- Location
- Northwestern Ontario Canada
Well in order to work (manpower) you have to have strength. So you have to eat.
In order to eat you have to buy food or grow your own but then you have to buy seeds.
And protein in meat is not cheap to come by. Even hunting takes money.
So what I am saying is that nothing in this world is free.
In the old days you would barter, but now you need cash.
I suppose if you lived on a desert island with all the resources to keep you alive, that might work, but that's rare.
Camper6
Well-known Member
- Location
- Northwestern Ontario Canada
Deliver us from those who claim that a .01 increase in a temperature for a year makes it the hottest year on record.
Actually. There's no way to measure the temperature of the Earth accurately.
And to compare it to previous years and previous methods is an exercise in futility.
My question is this. If global warming is real, where the heck is it. Certainly not in my back yard where I can observe it.
The average temperature where I live hasn't changed in 100 years. I was able to track the records.
Perception is not fact.
Camper6
Well-known Member
- Location
- Northwestern Ontario Canada
They won't disappear. Stopping fossil fuels won't do a thing to stop the natural cycle of the Earth.
Bigger cyclones, hurricanes, have nothing to do with the claim of Earth warming.
That is a proven fact. Everything that happens now is blamed on climate change. It's ridiculous.
Cyclones and hurricanes have been with us for decades.
Big Horn
Member
- Location
- Cody, Wyoming
The government schoolteacher thinks she knows more than professionals. They know how to avoid work, but not much else.