A Letter To Employers Mandating Vaccines

[Pepper]

@Alligatorob
Conditions are terrible in Louisiana, Texas, Mississippi, Alabama, etc.

NYC, thank you, is doing fine, everything's opening up. The Mayor wants vaccination proof for events and then you can gather maskless.

 

[Time Waits 4 No Man]

The longer this virus lingers, and more people continue to get infected, we are quite likely to see a lot more "restrictions" placed upon society. If people won't take "voluntary" actions to protect themselves, and others, businesses and governments will have no other choice but to impose invasive rules against those who are contributing to the spread of Covid.

Here's the problem I have with statements like this: if there are those among us who claim they are "only concerned about the health and well-being of their fellow human beings" and therefore are appalled over the very thought of "any human life" being lost to Covid-19, then why do I get the uneasy feeling most of these same people would be shrieking in the streets should even one person speak out for the lives of unborn human beings who are routinely slaughtered in the most horrific way by abortion doctors?

​

 

[Pink Biz]

Supreme Court justice won't block college vaccine mandate​

Thursday August 12, 2021

Barrett has refused to block a plan by Indiana University to require students and employees to get vaccinated against COVID-19. Barrett's action came in response to an emergency request from eight students, and it marked the first time the high court has weighed in on a vaccine mandate.

https://news.yahoo.com/supreme-court-justice-wont-block-215620592.html

 

[Murrmurr]

Supreme Court justice won't block college vaccine mandate​

Thursday August 12, 2021



Barrett has refused to block a plan by Indiana University to require students and employees to get vaccinated against COVID-19. Barrett's action came in response to an emergency request from eight students, and it marked the first time the high court has weighed in on a vaccine mandate.

https://news.yahoo.com/supreme-court-justice-wont-block-215620592.html

One down, eight to go.

The Supreme Court has one job....one; protect our constitutional rights without bias.

 

[Pink Biz]

One down, eight to go.

Are you referring to the number of Supreme Court justices? She has ruled on behalf of the entire Supreme Court.

As the article states:

"The court's newest justice rejected the plea without even asking the university for a response or getting her colleagues to weigh in. Justices often act on their own in such situations when the legal question isn't particularly close. Barrett handles emergency matters from the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 7th Circuit, which includes Indiana."

 

[Murrmurr]

Are you referring to the number of Supreme Court justices? She has ruled on behalf of the entire Supreme Court.

As the article states:

"The court's newest justice rejected the plea without even asking the university for a response or getting her colleagues to weigh in. Justices often act on their own in such situations when the legal question isn't particularly close. Barrett handles emergency matters from the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 7th Circuit, which includes Indiana."

*smacks forehead*

 

[Jennina]

Here's the problem I have with statements like this: if there are those among us who claim they are "only concerned about the health and well-being of their fellow human beings" and therefore are appalled over the very thought of "any human life" being lost to Covid-19, then why do I get the uneasy feeling most of these same people would be shrieking in the streets should even one person speak out for the lives of unborn human beings who are routinely slaughtered in the most horrific way by abortion doctors?

​

Maybe it's better not to conflate 2 issues? Covid is complicated enough as it is.

But I do get your frustration on hypocrisy in general. I see people showing conflicting values because everything has been politicized.

 

[Butterfly]

Are you referring to the number of Supreme Court justices? She has ruled on behalf of the entire Supreme Court.

As the article states:

"The court's newest justice rejected the plea without even asking the university for a response or getting her colleagues to weigh in. Justices often act on their own in such situations when the legal question isn't particularly close. Barrett handles emergency matters from the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 7th Circuit, which includes Indiana."

She blocked the students' demand for emergency relief. Requests for emergency relief ordinarily do not allow response by the other party.

 

[Aneeda72]

There are hundreds of thousands of labor law attorneys who work pro-bono and even more who take cases with no money up-front, paid only if you win monetary compensation.

True, but you are still on the hook for the expenses and those can be a lot

 

[Aneeda72]

Maybe it's better not to conflate 2 issues? Covid is complicated enough as it is.

But I do get your frustration on hypocrisy in general. I see people showing conflicting values because everything has been politicized.

Not to change the thread but since it was brought up, I am going to respond.

The abortion issue is so very complicated it can not in any way be compared to the vaccine issue. It is not only about my body my decision, but there are very many issues about the fetus itself that effect the question of abortion as well.

For example, the wide spread practice of the abortion of the imperfect fetus. I think the abortion of people with Down’s Syndrome is genocide since people with Down‘s Syndrome are genetically different and perhaps their own race. I adopted a child with DS.

Compare that to a child born with a severe hydrocephalic condition-who has only a brain stem and no brain. Should a child without a brain be allowed to be born and endure life? Does a child without a brain even have a soul? Idk. But I agreed to foster-adopt him. Did he even know we were there?

Does the 12 year old, pregnant by rape, have to carry the baby to term?

Conflicting values? Vaccine vs. Abortion? @Jennina Hmm, there is no conflict. The two issues have nothing in common. Btw, I am Catholic, I am pro choice. I was kidnapped and raped when I was 7 years old. Thankfully, I did not become pregnant as it is rare but possible.

 

[Time Waits 4 No Man]

Maybe it's better not to conflate 2 issues? Covid is complicated enough as it is. But I do get your frustration on hypocrisy in general. I see people showing conflicting values because everything has been politicized.

Not everybody is in agreement on this issue precisely because it has been politicized. But even if every single person was on the same page (politically speaking) there would still be disagreement. What it comes down to is trust, or the lack thereof. For many, whatever trust in the authorities there had been has since been burnt to a cinder by a succession of lies, half-truths, distortions, and partisan politics.

Now, as for "conflating two issues" here's my reasoning: many pro-vaxxers cite "concern for human life" over and over again (in defense of the vaccine) while simultaneously accusing anti-vaxxers of being sadistic bastards who have no value for human life. Unfortunately, this so-called concern doesn't come across that way, especially when one considers other areas of society where that "concern for human life" is utterly devoid.

For example, consider for a moment the many views pro-vaxxers have about the "sanctity of life":

• "I love baby seals! It's cruel to club them to death!" (values baby seal lives)
• "Those poor, starving African children! We mustn't let them die from starvation!" (values human life in this particular case)
• "I don't care if he's a heroin addict! His life is too precious to lose!" (values human life in this particular case)
• "Get the goddamn Covid vaccine! I value human life and you clearly don't!" (values human life in this particular case)
• "What? You're against abortion! But we have a right to kill unborn babies because, "it's our body, our choice!" So shut up with your "all human life is precious!" slogan!" (does not value human life in this particular case)

So, is this really conflation? Or just drawing a valid comparison and parallel between the hypocrisy of standing on the "moral high ground of valuing human life" while at the same time giving the green light to approximately one million human exterminations per year in the US? Frankly, such people do not hold the high ground - unless it's the high ground atop a fiery hill down in Hell. So, as I see it, get the Covid vaccine if you wish, and so do quietly. Likewise for those who don't wish to get it. But do not pretend for an instant that you "value human life" if you are also pro-abortion. And that's one reason (among many) why the pro-vaxxers bleating about "protecting our children!" when they also have no qualms whatsoever about obliterating the lives of our unborn children.

In the end, we are now a permanently divided nation. In a sense, we are the East Germany/West Germany of North America. Or the South Africa of that continent. Or the America of the early 1860's, before all hell broke loose.

 

[Time Waits 4 No Man]

The abortion issue is so very complicated it can not in any way be compared to the vaccine issue.

Again, I think you're missing the point. This is not about comparing what the medical decision regarding the "abortion of an imperfect fetus" should be. Instead, it is about those who claim they "value human life" when it comes to demanding mandatory Covid vaccines while simultaneously shrugging off the butchering of a NORMAL and healthy unborn human being via abortion. That is the issue: either you value human life (all human life) or you do not. Attempting to obfuscate this basic premise with digressions into tributary issues of "Down's Syndrome", "12 year olds pregnant by rape", and so forth is just evading the fundamental issue here. In short, it is hypocritical to preach to anti-vaxxers about "not valuing human life" while one does not value the human life of an unborn child.

It's as simple as that.

Is there a solution to this conflict? Sure, but not everyone will agree with it. Even so, here it is:

• Get the Covid vaccine if you wish
• Don't get the Covid vaccine if you wish
• Either way, remain silent about it

 

[suds00]

i worked in the field of employment discrinination. most of the cases that i saw did not have complainants who had legal counsel the vast majority of attorneys'want a goodly sum of money to represent any individual.it's difficult to find someone to represent someone on a pro bon basis.

 

[Nosy Bee-54]

Good for Canada!

"Canada is making COVID-19 vaccinations mandatory for all workers in federal service by this fall, Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, Dominic LeBlanc announced on Friday.

“We are also calling on all federally-regulated industries and sectors, and we are also calling on crown corporations to follow suit,” LeBlanc told reporters in French at a news conference.

The requirement will extend to travellers on commercial flights, interprovincial passenger trains and cruise ships."

https://globalnews.ca/news/8110086/canada-mandatory-covid-19-vaccines-federal-workers-fall/

Unvaxxed Americans won't be able to head north, so Mexico will be it or stay home.

 

[Aneeda72]

Again, I think you're missing the point. This is not about comparing what the medical decision regarding the "abortion of an imperfect fetus" should be. Instead, it is about those who claim they "value human life" when it comes to demanding mandatory Covid vaccines while simultaneously shrugging off the butchering of a NORMAL and healthy unborn human being via abortion. That is the issue: either you value human life (all human life) or you do not. Attempting to obfuscate this basic premise with digressions into tributary issues of "Down's Syndrome", "12 year olds pregnant by rape", and so forth is just evading the fundamental issue here. In short, it is hypocritical to preach to anti-vaxxers about "not valuing human life" while one does not value the human life of an unborn child.

It's as simple as that.

Is there a solution to this conflict? Sure, but not everyone will agree with it. Even so, here it is:

• Get the Covid vaccine if you wish
• Don't get the Covid vaccine if you wish
• Either way, remain silent about it

We agree to disagree. I am saying that you can not tell, in many cases, which human beings are “normal and healthy” at a certain gestational age and which are not. I am saying ”normal and healthy” should have no bearing on weather a fetus is aborted or not. I am not attempting to “obfuscate” the issue. I am disagreeing with you.

And while I also agree, to a certain extent that I am tired of the many threads on the issue, no one has to remain silent about anything. Last time I checked freedom of speech still applied to the forum. If people want to discuss vaccine issues, discuss away.

 

[Aneeda72]

Not everybody is in agreement on this issue precisely because it has been politicized. But even if every single person was on the same page (politically speaking) there would still be disagreement. What it comes down to is trust, or the lack thereof. For many, whatever trust in the authorities there had been has since been burnt to a cinder by a succession of lies, half-truths, distortions, and partisan politics.

Now, as for "conflating two issues" here's my reasoning: many pro-vaxxers cite "concern for human life" over and over again (in defense of the vaccine) while simultaneously accusing anti-vaxxers of being sadistic bastards who have no value for human life. Unfortunately, this so-called concern doesn't come across that way, especially when one considers other areas of society where that "concern for human life" is utterly devoid.

For example, consider for a moment the many views pro-vaxxers have about the "sanctity of life":

• "I love baby seals! It's cruel to club them to death!" (values baby seal lives)
• "Those poor, starving African children! We mustn't let them die from starvation!" (values human life in this particular case)
• "I don't care if he's a heroin addict! His life is too precious to lose!" (values human life in this particular case)
• "Get the goddamn Covid vaccine! I value human life and you clearly don't!" (values human life in this particular case)
• "What? You're against abortion! But we have a right to kill unborn babies because, "it's our body, our choice!" So shut up with your "all human life is precious!" slogan!" (does not value human life in this particular case)

So, is this really conflation? Or just drawing a valid comparison and parallel between the hypocrisy of standing on the "moral high ground of valuing human life" while at the same time giving the green light to approximately one million human exterminations per year in the US? Frankly, such people do not hold the high ground - unless it's the high ground atop a fiery hill down in Hell. So, as I see it, get the Covid vaccine if you wish, and so do quietly. Likewise for those who don't wish to get it. But do not pretend for an instant that you "value human life" if you are also pro-abortion. And that's one reason (among many) why the pro-vaxxers bleating about "protecting our children!" when they also have no qualms whatsoever about obliterating the lives of our unborn children.

In the end, we are now a permanently divided nation. In a sense, we are the East Germany/West Germany of North America. Or the South Africa of that continent. Or the America of the early 1860's, before all hell broke loose.

Clearly you have issues about abortion

 

[Jennina]

Not to change the thread but since it was brought up, I am going to respond.

The abortion issue is so very complicated it can not in any way be compared to the vaccine issue. It is not only about my body my decision, but there are very many issues about the fetus itself that effect the question of abortion as well.

For example, the wide spread practice of the abortion of the imperfect fetus. I think the abortion of people with Down’s Syndrome is genocide since people with Down‘s Syndrome are genetically different and perhaps their own race. I adopted a child with DS.

Compare that to a child born with a severe hydrocephalic condition-who has only a brain stem and no brain. Should a child without a brain be allowed to be born and endure life? Does a child without a brain even have a soul? Idk. But I agreed to foster-adopt him. Did he even know we were there?

Does the 12 year old, pregnant by rape, have to carry the baby to term?

Conflicting values? Vaccine vs. Abortion? @Jennina Hmm, there is no conflict. The two issues have nothing in common. Btw, I am Catholic, I am pro choice. I was kidnapped and raped when I was 7 years old. Thankfully, I did not become pregnant as it is rare but possible.

I'm totally speechless.

I'm sorry to hear about the abuse you had to endure as a child. And what you do with the children is just commendable.

I totally agree with you that the two issues shouldn't be compared and that abortion is such a complex issue. That's the reason I said we shouldn't conflate the 2.

I do see however, why @Time Waits 4 No Man went that route. "You want to save lives with the vaccine because you value human life yet you are OK with killing babies." At first blush, there seems to be dissonance. Similarly, one can create dissonance with being both pro life and pro gun.

But the irony is such oversimplification will complicate any honest to goodness discourse that's devoid of political agenda. Barely scratching the surface of two complex issues, conflating them and taking a position may be expedient but not sound.

But just the same, following his/her train of thought, I acknowledge the seeming hypocrisy of people who embrace two issues with conflicting values. I don't want to tread on political waters here which I gather is no-no in this forum, but I'm sure you've seen people claiming to be pro "something" and then doing something that is totally against that thing they claim to support.

For the record, I'm pro vaccine and I'd like to think of myself as pro- choice. My body. My life. My death. My choice.

I hope you and your children are keeping healthy and safe

 

[Jennina]

Not everybody is in agreement on this issue precisely because it has been politicized. But even if every single person was on the same page (politically speaking) there would still be disagreement. What it comes down to is trust, or the lack thereof. For many, whatever trust in the authorities there had been has since been burnt to a cinder by a succession of lies, half-truths, distortions, and partisan politics.

Now, as for "conflating two issues" here's my reasoning: many pro-vaxxers cite "concern for human life" over and over again (in defense of the vaccine) while simultaneously accusing anti-vaxxers of being sadistic bastards who have no value for human life. Unfortunately, this so-called concern doesn't come across that way, especially when one considers other areas of society where that "concern for human life" is utterly devoid.

For example, consider for a moment the many views pro-vaxxers have about the "sanctity of life":

• "I love baby seals! It's cruel to club them to death!" (values baby seal lives)
• "Those poor, starving African children! We mustn't let them die from starvation!" (values human life in this particular case)
• "I don't care if he's a heroin addict! His life is too precious to lose!" (values human life in this particular case)
• "Get the goddamn Covid vaccine! I value human life and you clearly don't!" (values human life in this particular case)
• "What? You're against abortion! But we have a right to kill unborn babies because, "it's our body, our choice!" So shut up with your "all human life is precious!" slogan!" (does not value human life in this particular case)

So, is this really conflation? Or just drawing a valid comparison and parallel between the hypocrisy of standing on the "moral high ground of valuing human life" while at the same time giving the green light to approximately one million human exterminations per year in the US? Frankly, such people do not hold the high ground - unless it's the high ground atop a fiery hill down in Hell. So, as I see it, get the Covid vaccine if you wish, and so do quietly. Likewise for those who don't wish to get it. But do not pretend for an instant that you "value human life" if you are also pro-abortion. And that's one reason (among many) why the pro-vaxxers bleating about "protecting our children!" when they also have no qualms whatsoever about obliterating the lives of our unborn children.

In the end, we are now a permanently divided nation. In a sense, we are the East Germany/West Germany of North America. Or the South Africa of that continent. Or the America of the early 1860's, before all hell broke loose.

Hey. Very interesting post. I like posts that get my puny mind thinking. Anyway, will reply to you later. I'm sensing we're from opposite sides of the fence. So should be interesting. "I'll be back!"

Not everybody is in agreement on this issue precisely because it has been politicized. But even if every single person was on the same page (politically speaking) there would still be disagreement. What it comes down to is trust, or the lack thereof. For many, whatever trust in the authorities there had been has since been burnt to a cinder by a succession of lies, half-truths, distortions, and partisan politics.

Now, as for "conflating two issues" here's my reasoning: many pro-vaxxers cite "concern for human life" over and over again (in defense of the vaccine) while simultaneously accusing anti-vaxxers of being sadistic bastards who have no value for human life. Unfortunately, this so-called concern doesn't come across that way, especially when one considers other areas of society where that "concern for human life" is utterly devoid.

For example, consider for a moment the many views pro-vaxxers have about the "sanctity of life":

• "I love baby seals! It's cruel to club them to death!" (values baby seal lives)
• "Those poor, starving African children! We mustn't let them die from starvation!" (values human life in this particular case)
• "I don't care if he's a heroin addict! His life is too precious to lose!" (values human life in this particular case)
• "Get the goddamn Covid vaccine! I value human life and you clearly don't!" (values human life in this particular case)
• "What? You're against abortion! But we have a right to kill unborn babies because, "it's our body, our choice!" So shut up with your "all human life is precious!" slogan!" (does not value human life in this particular case)

So, is this really conflation? Or just drawing a valid comparison and parallel between the hypocrisy of standing on the "moral high ground of valuing human life" while at the same time giving the green light to approximately one million human exterminations per year in the US? Frankly, such people do not hold the high ground - unless it's the high ground atop a fiery hill down in Hell. So, as I see it, get the Covid vaccine if you wish, and so do quietly. Likewise for those who don't wish to get it. But do not pretend for an instant that you "value human life" if you are also pro-abortion. And that's one reason (among many) why the pro-vaxxers bleating about "protecting our children!" when they also have no qualms whatsoever about obliterating the lives of our unborn children.

In the end, we are now a permanently divided nation. In a sense, we are the East Germany/West Germany of North America. Or the South Africa of that continent. Or the America of the early 1860's, before all hell broke loose.

Okay, so right off the bat, there are a couple of things that need to be resolved in terms of approach.

1. @Aneeda72 is zooming in on issues and you're zooming out
2. @Aneeda72 is "attacking" the issue, you're attacking the people.

I'm with Aneeda on this and let me explain why.

Zooming out to create an umbrella position which is the "sanctity of life" will lead to errors in reasoning when analyzing individual issues because "sanctity of life" may have different nuances of meaning in every issue.

Let's try your system

Using "sanctity of life" based on the abortion issue, let's agree on a "no kill" umbrella meaning.

1. No kill means no wars
2. No kill means no guns
3. If we include animals, no kill means no animal farming.(BTW, I agree with this.)

What else? I'm out of examples.

The second approach is focusing on issue not people. We've all been taught this. No need to explain.

The slogan. I will make a guess why the pro vaxxers are throwing that line to anti vaxxers.

1. Covid happened. People are dying.
2. Government comes up with solutions vaccine, masks, lockdown
3. Anti group says "no!" offering no solutions of their own because there are not enough people dying.
4. Pro group says "All human life is precious."

I don't agree that America is permanently divided.

Rise above politics and masks will just be masks and not a symbol of fascism. Doctors use it all the time to protect their patients. Rise above politics and vaccines will just mean protection.
Rise above politics and lockdown will just mean staying at home so you can let covid die on its own.

OK. Now your turn

 

[Ladybj]

I am not team vax. My hubby got the vaccine about 4 months ago and is loosing weight. He eats 3 meals a day.. a big eater. He though he gained weight when he recently went to the dr but he lost almost 20 pounds. He has not done anything different other than take the vaccine. I am not saying it is due to the vaccine but I am not ruling it out either. Too many unanswered questions and it is being pushed too hard..forced beyond measure. I guess it is what it is - can't control it - we all do what we feel is best for us.

 

[Aneeda72]

I am not team vax. My hubby got the vaccine about 4 months ago and is loosing weight. He eats 3 meals a day.. a big eater. He though he gained weight when he recently went to the dr but he lost almost 20 pounds. He has not done anything different other than take the vaccine. I am not saying it is due to the vaccine but I am not ruling it out either. Too many unanswered questions and it is being pushed too hard..forced beyond measure. I guess it is what it is - can't control it - we all do what we feel is best for us.

Well, if he is overweight that’s a good thing according to my doctors who say that while they don’t like the reason behind my losing weight, they like that I am losing weight. This is why they don’t worry about weight loss.

It it keeps up, I wouldn’t blame the vaccine, but I would look for a reason for the weight loss. Common reasons are diabetes, stomach issues, and cancer.

 

[Alligatorob]

Conflicting values? Vaccine vs. Abortion? @Jennina Hmm, there is no conflict. The two issues have nothing in common.

I agree, they are pretty much separate issues. In both however I do not like the idea of the government requiring people to do things, not unless those things have significant societal impacts and the vast majority of the population supports the action. I think of this as the conservative position.

In the case of the vaccine, as I have said I don't think the virus is bad enough to warrant most government mandates, however schools may be an exception to that. On the other hand I do believe private employers and retail establishments should have the right to do what they think best. I also support the government getting involved in research, public education, and helping with production and distribution of vaccines and information, just not in telling people what they have to do.

On abortion I just don't see that it is an issue on which we have enough consensus of opinion or a sufficiently tangible impact on society for the government to act. I believe the government needs to stay out of it. I am at a loss as to why people don't consider this the "conservative" position...

 

[Alligatorob]

My hubby got the vaccine about 4 months ago and is loosing weight. He eats 3 meals a day.. a big eater. He though he gained weight when he recently went to the dr but he lost almost 20 pounds. He has not done anything different other than take the vaccine. I am not saying it is due to the vaccine but I am not ruling it out either.

I would talk with your doctor about this, sounds serious enough to require figuring out. I kind of doubt its the vaccine - a very non-expert opinion, speculation really. I believe y'all need to try and figure it out, and start by asking a real doctor.

Best of luck with it, I hope it's nothing serious.

 

[Sunny]

I am not team vax. My hubby got the vaccine about 4 months ago and is loosing weight. He eats 3 meals a day.. a big eater. He though he gained weight when he recently went to the dr but he lost almost 20 pounds. He has not done anything different other than take the vaccine. I am not saying it is due to the vaccine but I am not ruling it out either. Too many unanswered questions and it is being pushed too hard..forced beyond measure. I guess it is what it is - can't control it - we all do what we feel is best for us.

If losing weight was a side effect of the vaccine, that vaccine would be the most popular item in this country!

Sorry, not really trying to make light of it; losing weight for no particular reason is a serious medical symptom. And the doctor's records showed that he lost 20 pounds and followed it up with nothing? I would switch to another doctor.

 

[oldman]

In right to work states any employee can be fired for any reason. Therefore, an employee who refuses to be vaccinated could be fired for walking and chewing gum and/or walking and not chewing gum.

Most employees in states that are not right to work states can still be fired for a variety of reasons. The fix is in .

This is true and I know first-hand that the second line is definitely true. My neighbor was fired for insubordination, which covers any and all things. It’s a catch-all reason to get rid of someone. My neighbor refused to buy a tool that would have cost him $1800. The company offered to take $20 a pay until it was paid off, but he still declined, so he was given the boot. PA is not a right-to-work state. He did not belong to any union. This was not a union shop.

He went to a lawyer and the lawyer told him that the company was within their right to terminate his employment.

 

[oldman]

One down, eight to go.

The Supreme Court has one job....one; protect our constitutional rights without bias

The really bad thing about this pandemic is that our hospitals are overwhelmed. Selective surgeries, even those which are eventually life or death, are being postponed, ignored. This is very wrong. Health workers overworked and under stress. If it takes a mandate to preserve health care, then that's what we must do.

Here in my part of PA, hospitals are both OK in this county. Everything is operating as normal. My wife is a friend to a doctor’s wife up the street and she told my wife that her husband, the doctor at the hospital was complaining about not having much to do on the day shift, so he was considering moving to the overnight shift in the ER. We are thankful that we have been so fortunate.