A lot of people can’t discuss things in a civil manner any more.

^^^You would be wrong. But you're intention is clear, which is to steer the convo to a divisive issue - abortion, throwing in your crazy world view and back handed attacks along the way.

The OP is a discussion on discussions and how they devolve into a war of words. You responded right on time, like pavlov's dog, to destroy it. You just can't help yourself.
 
Pepper said:
Sometimes there is no common ground. i.e. slavery; women's suffrage; abortion. You're either free or you're not.
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But we know that individual rights can be carried too far, such as murder, theft, yelling fire in crowded theaters, etc. Where to draw the line is what gets us into trouble.
 

againstthegrain said:
You responded right on time, like pavlov's dog, to destroy it. You just can't help yourself.
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Er, if you check I'm pretty sure you'll find that you brought it up, or at least elaborated and pontificated on it.

If anything, it is tactics like yours that get in the way of discourse. Baiting, passive aggression, personal attacks.
 
bobcat said:
I think the reason why people can become so passionate about politics vs some other matters is because those choices can affect a person's finances, their health, security, general welfare, and even civil liberties and freedom. In short, it can alter one's life, so I think many people can feel threatened when those things are at risk.
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Good points. My own health has not been as well as it was several years ago due to constant division on almost every issue. The stress of it makes you sick after a while..
 
Part of the problem is that we seem to live in different realities these days. Depending on where you get your information, you might believe that women getting abortions the day before they'd otherwise give birth is a common practice. Or you might believe that we're currently in a recession with high unemployment and high inflation. Or you might believe that crime is at an all-time high.

None of those things are true, but it's what a lot of people believe and they won't be convinced otherwise no matter how much evidence is presented that they're wrong. They'll tell you that your sources are biased even if those sources are neutral. They'll believe one quack scientist over 97% of the world's scientists if he supports their opinion.

So we wind up arguing what constitutes reality rather than coming up with solutions to problems.
 
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I think most of it is looking back in history with thick rose colored glasses. There's always this bygone era of congeniality and warmth with our fellow man, but it doesn't exist. For instance, after Pearl Harbor in 1941, the nation pulled together and as one fought WWII. Yet, there were multiple strikes, work stoppages, civil rights riots, draft dodgers, counterfeit ration books and a huge black market. Humans are mouthy critters, who are never satisfied, or all that loving of their neighbors.
 
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fuzzybuddy said:
I think most of it is looking back in history with thick rose colored glasses. There's always this bygone era of congeniality and warmth with our fellow man, but it doesn't exist. For instance, after Pearl Harbor in 1941, the nation pulled together and as one fought WWII. Yet, there were multiple strikes, work stoppages, civil rights riots, draft dodgers, counterfeit ration books and a huge black market. Humans are mouthy critters, who are never satisfied, or all that loving of their neighbors.
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Yep, there were also a lot of pro-Hitler rallies during the '30s and there was also an attempted coup to overthrow FDR's presidency and install a dictator.

The Business Plot, also called the Wall Street Putsch and the White House Putsch, was a political conspiracy in 1933, in the United States, to overthrow the government of President Franklin D. Roosevelt and install Smedley Butler as dictator.
Business Plot - Wikipedia
 
Numbers of overly emotional oriented people in interpersonal communications, regardless of how educated or intelligent, have never been able to discuss many issues civilly.

I've posted the below The Hidden Tribes of America link in the past that gets to the primary general factors for divisiveness in this era. Highly recommended read for the wise.

The Hidden Tribes of America

This person within the 7 categories, is a part of the Politically Disengaged and Moderates tribes.

Another festering factor is the impatient push by Ivy League ivory tower elites for multiculturalism and diversity that was a need from Wall Street globalists economic agendas and those impatiently pushing gender politics. It isn't that such policies are not in directions that can make societies ultimately better but rather as soon as elites came to view such as better for economic reasons, they pushed that agenda through backdoor political actions without adequately realizing how disruptive such would be to already reasonably stable societies. Among that agenda has been massive immigration that anyone with half a brain should have realized needed to be done more slowly.

Criticism of multiculturalism - Wikipedia
 
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againstthegrain said:
This statement is an example, I don't care to discuss abortion in this thread. No direct response is required, just think about it.


"Many abortion advocates in the US demand the right to terminate up until the day before birth, which seems barbaric to me.'



Please define "many" and then post up a list of those advocates if you feel that statement is accurate. If one can't provide the "proof", "evidence", or "data" to back it up why would one write it?


Why is it necessary in a discussion to define a position that's not one's own and argue against it aka a strawman argument?


IMHO, it feels intentional, an intent to derail the convo into a food fight.


I realize this thread is not about abortion or any topic in particular other than discussions, the statement above is a case in point of how come discussions go sideways. Doesn't one think that basically charging the opposite view as being child murderers is going to be hurtful to some of the participants and actual discussion and just produce responses of anger and resentment?

Does anyone think that the vast majority of pro-choice folks think that an abortion the day before birth is something they advocate for or support?

If we all start w the position that the opposing view are all barbarians, murderers, extremists, or some form of horrible people, we'll NEVER get anywhere.

I spent 30 years mediating business disputes that were very often technical in nature, and sometimes w no clear evidence of responsibility of fault. Getting both sides to accept a resolution to resume normal business btwn the parties was a LOT easier when the parties liked each other.
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OK, thanks for your comment, which manages to be both unpleasant and sanctimonious at the same time.

There are nine states plus the District of Columbia where a woman has the right to terminate her pregnancy "until delivery" for any reason whatsoever. Those laws didn't pass themselves, they were passed as a result of people advocating for them. I never said it was a majority of pro-choice people.

People commonly say things here without providing data. When I post links, no one opens them anyway.

I understand that very late abortions (after 28 weeks) are a small percentage of the total, something like 3 percent.

I didn't call anyone a barbarian, I said something seemed barbaric to me. There is a difference.

I didn't offer up strawmen or call anyone an extremist or a murderer.

My position is about the same as that of the proposed Women's Health Protection Act of 2022, which protects the right to abortion pre-viability and for medical reasons thereafter.

That's all, folks.
 
HermitHogan said:
Part of the problem is that we seem to live in different realities these days. Depending on where you get your information, you might believe that women getting abortions the day before they'd otherwise give birth is a common practice. Or you might believe that we're currently in a recession with high unemployment and high inflation. Or you might believe that crime is at an all-time high.

None of those things are true, but it's what a lot of people believe and they won't be convinced otherwise no matter how much evidence is presented that they're wrong. They'll tell you that your sources are biased even if those sources are neutral. They'll believe one quack scientist over 97% of the world's scientists if he supports their opinion.

So we wind up arguing what constitutes reality rather than coming up with solutions to problems.
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We're not in a recession. Inflation is currently modest at about 2-3 percent. However, inflation from 2021 to 2023 ran at about a 5 percent average annual rate, which is high. So things cost a lot more than they did four years ago, despite what you may hear.
 
Part of the problem may resolve itself soon.

Comcast seems to want to dump MSNBC and its other cable channels into a second company as a first step in divesting itself of the failing properties. I suppose they only held on for that lucrative political trade in an election year.
 
HermitHogan said:
Yep, there were also a lot of pro-Hitler rallies during the '30s and there was also an attempted coup to overthrow FDR's presidency and install a dictator.

The Business Plot, also called the Wall Street Putsch and the White House Putsch, was a political conspiracy in 1933, in the United States, to overthrow the government of President Franklin D. Roosevelt and install Smedley Butler as dictator.
Business Plot - Wikipedia
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Smedley?
 
Irishdude said:
We're not in a recession. Inflation is currently modest at about 2-3 percent. However, inflation from 2021 to 2023 ran at about a 5 percent average annual rate, which is high. So things cost a lot more than they did four years ago, despite what you may hear.
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Do you actually believe that some people don't know we had high inflation?
 
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HermitHogan said:
Do you actually believe that some people don't know we had high inflation?

Inflation was over 6% at the end of fiscal year 2020.
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Anybody who eats knows we had high inflation. One side of the political debate plays it down and the other side plays it up. So there is misinformation/disinformation coming from both sides.

I had lunch with a guy today who refused to believe that President Biden (playfully) bit a baby on the leg, despite all the photos. He said the photos were generated by "opponents."

There is a lot of craziness on both sides, but the lefties I know think it all comes from the right.
 
chic said:
Good points. My own health has not been as well as it was several years ago due to constant division on almost every issue. The stress of it makes you sick after a while..
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I believe this has affected my health as well, at least in the short term. The constant negativity online (and by online I am referring to news sites and the handful of social media sites I browse [really just Reddit at this point], not SF) is truly affecting me. I feel like my nerves are shot. For the past few weeks I've been feeling a physical malaise, just run down and generally icky. And my anxiety has been off the charts.

Maybe I should have put this in the "Rant" thread.
 
Why would "division" produce anxiety though?

Or is that just a being used as code word for people having opinions that you disagree with?

Because I think we can all fall into that trap.
 
dilettante said:
Why would "division" produce anxiety though?

Or is that just a being used as code word for people having opinions that you disagree with?

Because I think we can all fall into that trap.
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No it's not a code word. Disagreement with others should never be a problem and it never was when I was younger because people always disagree. You don't hate each other or trade blows over a difference of opinion. We still got along. It was not the end of anything.

Division is a deliberate all or nothing attitude where everything is someone else's fault and you're not allowed to like people you disagree with. This is the kind of attitude that instigates wars and it is stressful. Stress can make us physically sick as we all know. This is what has happened to me in recent years.
 
chic said:
No it's not a code word. Disagreement with others should never be a problem and it never was when I was younger because people always disagree. You don't hate each other or trade blows over a difference of opinion. We still got along. It was not the end of anything.

Division is a deliberate all or nothing attitude where everything is someone else's fault and you're not allowed to like people you disagree with. This is the kind of attitude that instigates wars and it is stressful. Stress can make us physically sick as we all know. This is what has happened to me in recent years.
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NPR did an hour long analysis of this subject last night. They spoke with psychologists who said the majority of their clientele in the last months are dealing mostly with political stress, way up from months ago, when it hardly ever came up. Division is affecting both Republicans and Democrats. One thing that surprised me is that it isn't all opposition between both sides. There is agreement on issues. Climate change being one example that surprised me. Toward the end of the program, psychologists offered possible solutions, none of which I can remember now. What I remember most was not about the content, but that it was an appropriately timely topic. And here we are talking about it now.
 
JustDave said:
NPR did an hour long analysis of this subject last night. They spoke with psychologists who said the majority of their clientele in the last months are dealing mostly with political stress, way up from months ago, when it hardly ever came up. Division is affecting both Republicans and Democrats. One thing that surprised me is that it isn't all opposition between both sides. There is agreement on issues. Climate change being one example that surprised me. Toward the end of the program, psychologists offered possible solutions, none of which I can remember now. What I remember most was not about the content, but that it was an appropriately timely topic. And here we are talking about it now.
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Division isn't just political. I agree with that. I saw it during the pandemic between the vaccinated and unvaccinated. I don't understand why we always have to be divided into opposing sides especially during a crisis.
 
Irishdude said:
What if you're free to have an abortion up to 12 or 14 weeks as is the case in Europe? Is that free or not free? Many abortion advocates in the US demand the right to terminate up until the day before birth, which seems barbaric to me.
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From Wikipedia : " generally when the pregnancy represents a serious danger to the life, or to the physical or mental health of the woman, or when a serious malformation or anomaly of the fetus is diagnosed.[12]"

If for not the above reasons, of course, the baby should be saved.
 
GP44 said:

A lot of people can’t discuss things in a civil manner any more..​

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It's true. It would be nice if I could say that I like Trump's humour or Putin's intelligence without people telling me that I'm a "this" or a "that" or that I'm a "hater". We need to abolish the notion of “with us or against us”.
 

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