Airliner collides with helicopter near Washington DC airport
- Thread starter WhatInThe
- Start date
There is this thing called tact.
I really don't know what you think I said that wasn't tactful and If I was untactful what would being patient do to help that?
Beezer
Well-known Member
I seriously think you need some tea, toast and a bath.
CallMeKate
Well-known Member
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic US
There were supposed to be 30 air traffic controllers on deck. There were 19. Staffing shortages were.... ARE rather, forcing some of the controllers to work six days a week and 10 hours a day. It's not going to turn out to be either of the pilots' faults, I think. The controller was working the job of two people.
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AnnieA
Well-known Member
- Location
- Down South
Stories coming out are heartbreaking. Especially sad for Maxim Naumov whose skating coach parents were on the plane. He flew out a couple of days before.
Matrix
Admin
No politics please: Politics is not allowed here
Magna-Carta
Senior Member
- Location
- UK
Your comments in post #23 seemed reasonable to me and, from what I could see, were not specifically directed at anyone here. They felt more like a general common-sense remark, especially given what is being said in the news about the alleged causes of the crash in front of journalists -- comments and allegations broadcast worldwide. Things that no doubt we are not allowed to say or comment on here anyway. The blame game has already started, when all the bodies haven't yet been recovered, and as yet very few facts have been established.
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Problem number one is commercial aircraft and military aircraft cannot communicate with one another. I flew for United for 33 years and ran into this problem only a few times. We depend on ATC to keep us spaced and safe. I would imagine that the helicopter was using VFR or Visual Flight Rules to keep his distance. The commercial pilot should also have been alert to the helicopter using VFR. Somehow, the two planes got tangled.
My condolences to the families.
My condolences to the families.
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Very
Important
People
The acronym is self-explanatory, it often accompanies a sense of entitlement.
...condolences to all
AnnieA
Well-known Member
- Location
- Down South
This guy doesn't think ATC communicated with enough detail. Bolded part towards end of article.
MARK MCEATHRON: I'm a Black Hawk helicopter pilot. This video shows all the red flags that led up to the deadly DC plane crash
I'm a former Black Hawk helicopter crew chief and flight instructor.
I know how quickly a routine flight can turn into a terrible tragedy.
That's why it's been so disheartening to hear the misguided criticism being put forward as an investigation into Wednesday evening's deadly crash of an American Airlines commuter plane and a US Army helicopter over Washington DC just gets underway.
Online trolls are spinning the conspiracy that this tragedy was somehow intentional. But anyone telling you that this collision is suspect has never been in a flight crew in their lives.
I don't claim to know what caused this horrific accident, but in my experience there's always a combination of factors – a 'perfect storm' of mistakes – and human error is almost certainly counted among them.
In this incident, there are least three 'teams' to evaluate: the Army helicopter crew, the American Airline pilots and Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport's air traffic control.
First, there's the Black Hawk crew.
During my six years in the US Army, I trained helicopter crew chiefs. It is their responsibility to be the eyes of the pilot and co-pilot, who – ironically – spend much of their time with their attention trained inside the aircraft.
They must monitor multiple radio channels, and in cities like DC, the wireless traffic is constant. There are also instruments to check, fuel gauges to watch and checklists to evaluate. All of these factors are exacerbated when flying at low altitudes – as this reported training mission apparently was.
There, indeed, can be moments when all three crew members in the cockpit are not looking outside the aircraft.
That's not supposed to happen, of course. Pilot and crews are supposed to announce and coordinate when we are 'coming inside' or going 'back outside' the aircraft. But that doesn't always happen.
Plus, even with three-trained aviators in a cockpit, it's nearly impossible to navigate with the naked eye – especially at night.
This is important to keep in mind if you watch the video of this particular crash, which appears to show the Black Hawk flying directly in front of the well-lit passenger plane from a long distance.
All aviators face the challenge posed by optical illusions.
Most people have experienced similar sensations in their everyday lives.
If you're in a car driving down the road and you look out the window at trees, they seem to be moving very fast in relation to the car, while the hills in the distance appear to be moving very slowly. In reality, neither are moving at all. This is an illusion. Pilots can experience a related phenomenon that is even more extreme.
If conditions are right, flying objects can look as if they're stationary.
In navigation, the phrase 'constant bearing, decreasing range' (CBDR) refers to two aircraft that are travelling at certain angles, speeds and directions and in the absence of any visible reference points.
It is possible for two pilots to fly toward each other without either of them be aware of it.
At night and in a city, this illusion is magnified, because a pilot may not realize that a seemingly stationary light is actually an aircraft.
I'm sure that American Airlines commuter airline was lit up like a Christmas tree. But it may not have mattered to Black Hawk pilots. In a brightly lit city, like Washington DC.
As for the airline pilots, they may have been completely oblivious to that Blackhawk traveling through their flight path.
These military helicopters are designed to be hard to see at night. The red and green lights on the side get lost in the lights of the city below. The only 'lights' on top of the aircraft are called 'slime lights' because they are a very dim green.
Moreover, on approach to landing, the commercial pilots are not looking outside of their aircraft.
At that point in the flight, they're relying on their instruments, being guided by radar, checking their speed, altitude and which runway they've been directed to land on.
The AA pilots would have been relying on air traffic control to clear the airspace – obviously, that didn't happen.
Finally, the role of air traffic controllers will be a major focus of any investigation.
One of the things that I did not like hearing on the recordings of the air traffic control conversation in this accident is that the Reagan National Tower asked the Black Hawk pilots if they simply saw the other aircraft, just moments before the collision.
That's not a helpful instruction from the perspective of a pilot, because they wouldn't know where to look. Perhaps, the Black Hawk pilots did identify what they thought was the aircraft in question – but it was another plane taking off at the same time.
As a pilot, I would want to hear, for instance: Do you see the aircraft three miles away off your 11 o'clock and flying at a hundred feet?
I would want a direction, altitude and a distance. It appears that these Black Hawk pilots did not get that information.
You can also hear air traffic control giving the Black Hawk permission to 'go behind' the approaching aircraft, but if the Black Hawk didn't see that aircraft, they wouldn't know where to go.
There are still many unanswered questions. But I know this: 999 out of 1000 aircraft incidents are caused by a series of human errors.
Today, my heart and mind is with the families of those involved in this tragic event.
MARK MCEATHRON: I'm a Black Hawk helicopter pilot. This video shows all the red flags that led up to the deadly DC plane crash
I'm a former Black Hawk helicopter crew chief and flight instructor.
I know how quickly a routine flight can turn into a terrible tragedy.
That's why it's been so disheartening to hear the misguided criticism being put forward as an investigation into Wednesday evening's deadly crash of an American Airlines commuter plane and a US Army helicopter over Washington DC just gets underway.
Online trolls are spinning the conspiracy that this tragedy was somehow intentional. But anyone telling you that this collision is suspect has never been in a flight crew in their lives.
I don't claim to know what caused this horrific accident, but in my experience there's always a combination of factors – a 'perfect storm' of mistakes – and human error is almost certainly counted among them.
In this incident, there are least three 'teams' to evaluate: the Army helicopter crew, the American Airline pilots and Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport's air traffic control.
First, there's the Black Hawk crew.
During my six years in the US Army, I trained helicopter crew chiefs. It is their responsibility to be the eyes of the pilot and co-pilot, who – ironically – spend much of their time with their attention trained inside the aircraft.
They must monitor multiple radio channels, and in cities like DC, the wireless traffic is constant. There are also instruments to check, fuel gauges to watch and checklists to evaluate. All of these factors are exacerbated when flying at low altitudes – as this reported training mission apparently was.
There, indeed, can be moments when all three crew members in the cockpit are not looking outside the aircraft.
That's not supposed to happen, of course. Pilot and crews are supposed to announce and coordinate when we are 'coming inside' or going 'back outside' the aircraft. But that doesn't always happen.
Plus, even with three-trained aviators in a cockpit, it's nearly impossible to navigate with the naked eye – especially at night.
This is important to keep in mind if you watch the video of this particular crash, which appears to show the Black Hawk flying directly in front of the well-lit passenger plane from a long distance.
All aviators face the challenge posed by optical illusions.
Most people have experienced similar sensations in their everyday lives.
If you're in a car driving down the road and you look out the window at trees, they seem to be moving very fast in relation to the car, while the hills in the distance appear to be moving very slowly. In reality, neither are moving at all. This is an illusion. Pilots can experience a related phenomenon that is even more extreme.
If conditions are right, flying objects can look as if they're stationary.
In navigation, the phrase 'constant bearing, decreasing range' (CBDR) refers to two aircraft that are travelling at certain angles, speeds and directions and in the absence of any visible reference points.
It is possible for two pilots to fly toward each other without either of them be aware of it.
At night and in a city, this illusion is magnified, because a pilot may not realize that a seemingly stationary light is actually an aircraft.
I'm sure that American Airlines commuter airline was lit up like a Christmas tree. But it may not have mattered to Black Hawk pilots. In a brightly lit city, like Washington DC.
As for the airline pilots, they may have been completely oblivious to that Blackhawk traveling through their flight path.
These military helicopters are designed to be hard to see at night. The red and green lights on the side get lost in the lights of the city below. The only 'lights' on top of the aircraft are called 'slime lights' because they are a very dim green.
Moreover, on approach to landing, the commercial pilots are not looking outside of their aircraft.
At that point in the flight, they're relying on their instruments, being guided by radar, checking their speed, altitude and which runway they've been directed to land on.
The AA pilots would have been relying on air traffic control to clear the airspace – obviously, that didn't happen.
Finally, the role of air traffic controllers will be a major focus of any investigation.
One of the things that I did not like hearing on the recordings of the air traffic control conversation in this accident is that the Reagan National Tower asked the Black Hawk pilots if they simply saw the other aircraft, just moments before the collision.
That's not a helpful instruction from the perspective of a pilot, because they wouldn't know where to look. Perhaps, the Black Hawk pilots did identify what they thought was the aircraft in question – but it was another plane taking off at the same time.
As a pilot, I would want to hear, for instance: Do you see the aircraft three miles away off your 11 o'clock and flying at a hundred feet?
I would want a direction, altitude and a distance. It appears that these Black Hawk pilots did not get that information.
You can also hear air traffic control giving the Black Hawk permission to 'go behind' the approaching aircraft, but if the Black Hawk didn't see that aircraft, they wouldn't know where to go.
There are still many unanswered questions. But I know this: 999 out of 1000 aircraft incidents are caused by a series of human errors.
Today, my heart and mind is with the families of those involved in this tragic event.
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Air crash investigations are a thorough process. A friend mine has done air crash investigation, they don't have a quick look at the scene and decide what happened.
If we're patient we will be told what happened or told the 'official' version of what happened. Jumping to conclusions is the realm of the impatient.
Even if we're impatient we will be told what happened. I know that it's sometimes years before an official announcement is made, and in the meantime we could all have the mental exercise of speculating about what might have happened with no harm done.
I wasn't aware that anyone here had jumped to any firm conclusions.
Wow. I've been told to be patient, called tactless, and now told I need a bath. I really don't get it.
I'm hearing a lot of things including it was caused by use of night vision goggles, the helicopter was flying where it shouldn't ie was the controller or pilot's fault. Then I see something there were close call one night prior and not a full control tower staff on.
Probably going to be a the perfect storm of events and conditions.
RIP the deceased
Probably going to be a the perfect storm of events and conditions.
RIP the deceased
Remy
Well-known Member
- Location
- California, USA
I don't think wisenior was asking anyone not to talk about it. It's natural to speculate. Even people who know nothing about flying, like me. The officials are saying they are gathering and have information that they are not revealing at this time.
It's my understanding that plane would have landed in less than a minute. So terrible.
papa tiger
Well-known Member
Young lives were destroyed today because a stupid decision was made !
The Helicopters pilot knew where he was going. He knew not to cross that zone !
They study this stuff before they embark on a planned training flight. Maybe
distracted by his Cell.
The Helicopters pilot knew where he was going. He knew not to cross that zone !
They study this stuff before they embark on a planned training flight. Maybe
distracted by his Cell.
Wow, just wow...
I've just read an interesting article which deems Army leadership culpable. The article claims that the lack of training and logged flying hours of trainees is behind this. It also says that Army helicopter trainees have been killing themselves for some time but nobody cared, up until now.
This is an example of why we should bide our time and wait until relevant information comes to hand.Young lives were destroyed today because a stupid decision was made !
The Helicopters pilot knew where he was going. He knew not to cross that zone !
They study this stuff before they embark on a planned training flight. Maybe
distracted by his Cell.
I read a report about a credible source (Jim Brauchle) that Army helicopter training flights are cleared to fly up and down the Potomac River. This means that there can be hundreds of feet vertical separation between Army helicopter flight paths and commercial passenger aircraft, without any operators making any errors.
It will interesting to see if any 'stupid decision' was made and if that's going to be publicly disclosed.
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