againstthegrain
Senior Member
- Location
- Sun Valley, ID
Yeah, no.
Airliner collides with helicopter near Washington DC airport
- Thread starter WhatInThe
- Start date
You don't know anything. You're just puking out your anger and allegations based on nothing but your negative thoughts. Know It Alls usually know very little.
Give it a break! People are in shock and mourning their losses. Lots of speculation and guessing before the facts of the investigation is complete, is just plain foolishness and ignorance. Reflects the accuser.
againstthegrain
Senior Member
- Location
- Sun Valley, ID
NYT - "Clues emerging from the moments before the deadly collision Wednesday night between an Army helicopter and an American Airlines passenger jet suggest that multiple layers of the country’s aviation safety apparatus failed, according to flight recordings, a preliminary internal report from the Federal Aviation
Administration, interviews with current and former air traffic controllers and others briefed on the matter.
The helicopter flew outside its approved flight path. The American Airlines pilots most likely did not see the helicopter close by as they made a turn toward the runway. And the air traffic controller, who was juggling two jobs at the same time, was unable to keep the helicopter and the plane separated.
An F.A.A. spokesman said the agency could not comment on the ongoing investigation, which is being led by the National Transportation Safety Board. Crash investigators will spend the next several months reviewing flight data, recordings from inside the cockpits, weather patterns, as well as interviewing controllers and others involved to try to figure out what went wrong.
But the catastrophe already appeared to confirm what pilots, air traffic controllers and safety experts had been warning for years: Growing holes in the aviation system could lead to the kind of crash that left 67 people dead in the Potomac River in Washington.
Even before an official cause is determined, there were signs Wednesday that pilots and air traffic controllers at Reagan National were not operating under optimal conditions.
The duties of handling air traffic control for helicopters and for planes at Reagan National on Wednesday night were combined before the deadly crash. That left only one person to handle both roles, according to a person briefed on the staffing and the report."
Administration, interviews with current and former air traffic controllers and others briefed on the matter.
The helicopter flew outside its approved flight path. The American Airlines pilots most likely did not see the helicopter close by as they made a turn toward the runway. And the air traffic controller, who was juggling two jobs at the same time, was unable to keep the helicopter and the plane separated.
An F.A.A. spokesman said the agency could not comment on the ongoing investigation, which is being led by the National Transportation Safety Board. Crash investigators will spend the next several months reviewing flight data, recordings from inside the cockpits, weather patterns, as well as interviewing controllers and others involved to try to figure out what went wrong.
But the catastrophe already appeared to confirm what pilots, air traffic controllers and safety experts had been warning for years: Growing holes in the aviation system could lead to the kind of crash that left 67 people dead in the Potomac River in Washington.
Even before an official cause is determined, there were signs Wednesday that pilots and air traffic controllers at Reagan National were not operating under optimal conditions.
The duties of handling air traffic control for helicopters and for planes at Reagan National on Wednesday night were combined before the deadly crash. That left only one person to handle both roles, according to a person briefed on the staffing and the report."
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It's natural for people to speculate the cause. In our modern world, news is instant and we all react to events reported.
Trade
Well-known Member
Near-misses at Washington airport worried pilots well before fatal crash
(Reuters) -U.S. commercial pilot Rick Redfern was preparing to land at Reagan Washington National Airport about a decade ago when he spotted a bright red Coast Guard helicopter hovering about 50 feet (15 m) above the Potomac River.
Air traffic control promptly warned the helicopter pilot to stay clear, and Redfern said he used evasive maneuvers to avoid it and avert a potential disaster - and that was in daytime, when visibility was clearer.
At night "the light can disorient you as to what you might think you are seeing as to what you actually are seeing," Redfern said.
A collision on Wednesday night between a Black Hawk military helicopter and an American Airlines subsidiary's CRJ700 regional jet, which killed 67 people, has stirred haunting memories for Redfern and other pilots who have faced challenges landing at the Washington airport.
Planes approaching the airport must navigate a precise and narrow flight path to avoid restricted airspace around the nearby White House and Pentagon.
"That turn from the eastern side along the river to turn into runway 33 is very, very tight," said Redfern, referring to the same airstrip the American Airlines jet was heading towards before colliding with the U.S. military helicopter.
It is unclear what caused the crash, which is now under investigation by the U.S. National Transportation Safety Board and the U.S. Army. Air crashes typically result from multiple factors.
Seven U.S. pilots told Reuters the landing at Reagan airport is unique due to congested space, along with an inability to communicate directly with military aircraft, which operate on different radio frequencies. The airport also has shorter runways, including runway 33, which is generally reserved for smaller aircraft, one of the seven aviators said.
For pilots, it means traversing narrow airspace, since planes cannot cross the eastern shoreline of the Potomac River when approaching the airport that is also used regularly by the military for training, the aviators said.
The U.S. Army Black Hawk helicopter involved in the collision was on a training flight and flying at an altitude of about 300 feet at the time of the crash, according to FlightRadar24 data.
However, when an airplane is below about 1,100 feet, TCAS stops giving instructions to pilots.
"There just isn’t enough room below that to maneuver," said aviation safety expert and former airline pilot John Nance.
NEAR MISSES
A Reuters review of incidents at Reagan airport involving helicopters reveals pilots had been raising alarm about near-misses back to the 1980s.
"You definitely are bringing your A-game when you fly in and out of Reagan," said former long-time commercial airline pilot Kathleen Bangs.
Out of 46 incidents flagged anonymously by pilots in the Aviation Safety Reporting System database, 26 cases involved near-misses or recklessly close contact.
In a report about an incident in September 1989, one pilot complained that military helicopters and commercial aircraft are on different radio frequencies, cannot hear each other and rely on "very busy" traffic controllers to prevent accidents.
The pilot complained it was his seventh near-miss with a helicopter in 4-1/2 years flying into the airport.
"Is DCA (Reagan) a congested airspace? Yes, hands down no doubt about it," said Dennis Tajer, a spokesperson for the Allied Pilots Association that represents American Airlines mainline pilots.
"It's in a very tight airspace because there are restricted areas all around the airport."
While constrained airspace makes the approach more challenging, aviation safety experts have not raised widespread concerns about the space constraints.
"We have commercial flights and military flights and all types of flights operating out of Reagan National every day," said aviation safety and crash investigation expert Anthony Brickhouse.
A PREVENTABLE TRAGEDY?
In the moments before the crash, an air traffic controller can be heard on recordings asking the Army helicopter to pass behind the regional jet.
"They'll be studying what the helicopter pilots and commercial pilots could have seen and any communication between the two aircraft," Brickhouse said.
Commercial aircraft use Very High Frequency (VHF) radios to communicate, while military aircraft operate on Ultra High Frequency (UHF) channels, making direct communication between them difficult. However, the control tower can communicate with both frequencies.
"There are established procedures to separate commercial and military helicopter traffic," said the general aviation group Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association (AOPA).
Nevertheless, the collision may lead to changes.
Army Secretary nominee Daniel Driscoll said during a Senate hearing on Thursday that the crash may prompt the military to reconsider conducting training operations near the busy Washington, D.C., airspace.
"This seems to be preventable," Driscoll said. "I think we might need to look at where is an appropriate time to take training risk, and it may not be near an airport like Reagan."
(Reuters) -U.S. commercial pilot Rick Redfern was preparing to land at Reagan Washington National Airport about a decade ago when he spotted a bright red Coast Guard helicopter hovering about 50 feet (15 m) above the Potomac River.
Air traffic control promptly warned the helicopter pilot to stay clear, and Redfern said he used evasive maneuvers to avoid it and avert a potential disaster - and that was in daytime, when visibility was clearer.
At night "the light can disorient you as to what you might think you are seeing as to what you actually are seeing," Redfern said.
A collision on Wednesday night between a Black Hawk military helicopter and an American Airlines subsidiary's CRJ700 regional jet, which killed 67 people, has stirred haunting memories for Redfern and other pilots who have faced challenges landing at the Washington airport.
Planes approaching the airport must navigate a precise and narrow flight path to avoid restricted airspace around the nearby White House and Pentagon.
"That turn from the eastern side along the river to turn into runway 33 is very, very tight," said Redfern, referring to the same airstrip the American Airlines jet was heading towards before colliding with the U.S. military helicopter.
It is unclear what caused the crash, which is now under investigation by the U.S. National Transportation Safety Board and the U.S. Army. Air crashes typically result from multiple factors.
Seven U.S. pilots told Reuters the landing at Reagan airport is unique due to congested space, along with an inability to communicate directly with military aircraft, which operate on different radio frequencies. The airport also has shorter runways, including runway 33, which is generally reserved for smaller aircraft, one of the seven aviators said.
For pilots, it means traversing narrow airspace, since planes cannot cross the eastern shoreline of the Potomac River when approaching the airport that is also used regularly by the military for training, the aviators said.
The U.S. Army Black Hawk helicopter involved in the collision was on a training flight and flying at an altitude of about 300 feet at the time of the crash, according to FlightRadar24 data.
To avoid collisions with other aircraft, pilots rely on the Traffic Alert and Collision Avoidance System, better known as TCAS. When TCAS detects a dangerously close aircraft, it gives instructions to the pilots to avoid a collision, such as pull up or descend, turn left or turn right.However, when an airplane is below about 1,100 feet, TCAS stops giving instructions to pilots.
"There just isn’t enough room below that to maneuver," said aviation safety expert and former airline pilot John Nance.
NEAR MISSES
A Reuters review of incidents at Reagan airport involving helicopters reveals pilots had been raising alarm about near-misses back to the 1980s.
"You definitely are bringing your A-game when you fly in and out of Reagan," said former long-time commercial airline pilot Kathleen Bangs.
Out of 46 incidents flagged anonymously by pilots in the Aviation Safety Reporting System database, 26 cases involved near-misses or recklessly close contact.
In a report about an incident in September 1989, one pilot complained that military helicopters and commercial aircraft are on different radio frequencies, cannot hear each other and rely on "very busy" traffic controllers to prevent accidents.
The pilot complained it was his seventh near-miss with a helicopter in 4-1/2 years flying into the airport.
"Is DCA (Reagan) a congested airspace? Yes, hands down no doubt about it," said Dennis Tajer, a spokesperson for the Allied Pilots Association that represents American Airlines mainline pilots.
"It's in a very tight airspace because there are restricted areas all around the airport."
While constrained airspace makes the approach more challenging, aviation safety experts have not raised widespread concerns about the space constraints.
"We have commercial flights and military flights and all types of flights operating out of Reagan National every day," said aviation safety and crash investigation expert Anthony Brickhouse.
A PREVENTABLE TRAGEDY?
In the moments before the crash, an air traffic controller can be heard on recordings asking the Army helicopter to pass behind the regional jet.
"They'll be studying what the helicopter pilots and commercial pilots could have seen and any communication between the two aircraft," Brickhouse said.
Commercial aircraft use Very High Frequency (VHF) radios to communicate, while military aircraft operate on Ultra High Frequency (UHF) channels, making direct communication between them difficult. However, the control tower can communicate with both frequencies.
"There are established procedures to separate commercial and military helicopter traffic," said the general aviation group Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association (AOPA).
Nevertheless, the collision may lead to changes.
Army Secretary nominee Daniel Driscoll said during a Senate hearing on Thursday that the crash may prompt the military to reconsider conducting training operations near the busy Washington, D.C., airspace.
"This seems to be preventable," Driscoll said. "I think we might need to look at where is an appropriate time to take training risk, and it may not be near an airport like Reagan."
Reagan has been notorious for a long time, for being much too crowded and busy. An accident like this was inevitable, with all that aircraft zigzagging and crossing each other's paths. Made even worse by whoever made the decision to cut down on the flight control personnel, from the usual two to one, to save a few dollars.
Hopefully, some change will come out of this tragedy.
Hopefully, some change will come out of this tragedy.
againstthegrain
Senior Member
- Location
- Sun Valley, ID
How did you deduce the reduction in personnel was a cost saving measure?
Twostep
Well-known Member
- Location
- Tiny town Oklahoma, OK
This is wait and see.
ATC was cleared by supervisor to leave shift early as it was a time of moderate traffic. Protocol was not followed.
ATC was cleared by supervisor to leave shift early as it was a time of moderate traffic. Protocol was not followed.
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Twostep
Well-known Member
- Location
- Tiny town Oklahoma, OK
Is this the kind of posting SF encourages?
Twostep
Well-known Member
- Location
- Tiny town Oklahoma, OK
And they opt for their extended hours. Please review the pay scales and their union interaction.
It is very likely that it will take a year plus or minus a few months, until the final report is released. A preliminary report will be released maybe within the next 6-8 months.
The NTSB won’t be rushed and no stone will be left unturned.
Don M.
SF VIP
- Location
- central Missouri
Based upon all the news coverage of this tragedy, I sure wouldn't want to fly in or out of this airport.
AnnieA
Well-known Member
- Location
- Down South
Rather than restricting military helicopters and planes through DC air space, flights into Reagan National need to be reduced or the airport moved somewhere else. The military is priority in a high target area like DC. Moving or closing Reagan has been considered through the years but our Congress votes on changes at Regean and it's more convenient for them to fly into Reagan than Dulles.
In 2023, Congress voted to increase flights at Reagan National. Since then, there have been close calls in April 2024, May 2024 and there was a close call the day before this crash. Increased flights in this already congested airspace coupled with understaffed ATF was a disaster waiting to happen and it did.
In 2023, Congress voted to increase flights at Reagan National. Since then, there have been close calls in April 2024, May 2024 and there was a close call the day before this crash. Increased flights in this already congested airspace coupled with understaffed ATF was a disaster waiting to happen and it did.
One of the YouTube videos I watched said the ceiling for the helicopters is 200 ft until after the Woodrow Wilson bridge when they are allowed a ceiling of 300 ft.
It looks like the collision was quite a ways before the Woodrow Wilson bridge, so I'm going to speculate one of the holes in the swiss cheese was the helicopter being above its approved corridor.
Such a pity to have a horrible crash when just a few feet would have prevented it.
I haven't seen hardly any coverage of the people who died who were not ice skaters or crew. I feel bad for the families of all the victims who weren't ice skaters. Though that poor Boston team, one of the interviews said they lost skaters and coaches in a 1961 airplane disaster also.
Twostep
Well-known Member
- Location
- Tiny town Oklahoma, OK
Luckily the Potomac River is the approach route which was used. Anyone want to to think about "what else"?
You are right, the Potomac is a good safety feature (other than the time in the 1980s when a plane crashing into the river scraped through traffic on the bridge killing some motorists).
I used to live (40 yrs ago) in a high rise beside that airport (to watch TV had to hold the remote and up-up-up the volume as each plane took off, then down-down-down the volume as the plane receded into the distance). I don't remember ever worrying about them crashing into buildings. As a user of that airport its convenience outweighs the risks.
One of the news articles said the passengers in the plane died in an instant, I hope that is true, I hope none survived only to perish a few moments later in the river.
OldFeller
Well-known Member
- Location
- Pennsylvania, USA
"Investigators are looking into...whether the altitude of the army helicopter contributed to this crash."
An update 1/31/2025...
An update 1/31/2025...
AnnieA
Well-known Member
- Location
- Down South
Understaffing wasn't due to cost cutting, but because there's a shortage of air traffic controllers despite there being plenty of qualified applicants. Can't post anything else due to forum rules, but if you want to read why on your own use "Mountain States Legal Foundation" "FAA" "class action" as search terms.
Packerjohn
Packerjohn
- Location
- Canada
I am not surprised at all that this accident happened. I just returned from spending time in Fort Lauderdale and in Miami. They have planes taking off, if seems, every minute.
The airport and it’s location is a squeeze. They never should have allowed a helicopter to be among the mix, especially at the time of day it was. I doubt if the the helicopter had a transponder in it. The ATC was lining up the planes for landing. Helicopters, normally do not get a place in line. They generally sit their bird down the tarmac and then it’s moved later once things quiet down.
There had to be a lot of confusion on the runway and tarmac and now there’s helicopter without a transponder, which makes it more difficult to track. I can see where there was probably a lot if confusion.
I flew out of Dulles (IAD). That was my home airport. Both airports are located outside of the city. Both airports are busy. Reagan flies a lot of politicians and it’s more convenient for those people who want to get out of town in a hurry. I can see and understand that there was a lot of confusion, mainly on the part of the ATC’s. I’m not saying this is what caused the accident, but it sure didn’t help any.
I have confidence that the NTSB will figure it out.
The article I referred to was supposedly written by a serving Army helicopter flight instructor. They clearly crossed a boundary by writing it and posting it on Reddit. I can't vouch for the veracity of that article, it seemed plausible and I am unable to find it again.