Alternative views on the Ukraine war

That is one likely outcome, but there is a chance the opposition could take control and at this point anyone would be better than what we have. It happened in Ukraine with Zalinsky because the people were fed up with the corruption, and has happened in other places. Just depends how ready the Russian people are for a better life. As in comedy, timing is everything.
 

You can "bet your bottom dollar" that there is an alternative view of this war. It is not my view but I have learned some points by talking to different folks. Some of those points are:
1. NATO is to blame for trying to get Ukraine to join. Putin will not accept NATO nuclear weapons in Eastern Ukraine pointed toward Moscow; a short distance away. Compare this with a lot of nuclear weapons along the Mexican border pointing at the US.
2. Those escaping Ukraine are the middle or upper classes. They come across the border carrying their smartphones, their dogs, their cats and many arrive in fancy almost new cars. The poor people are mostly left behind.
3. When the US was bombing and fighting in Iraq, Afghanistan, etc., how come we never saw daily images of dead bodies, children crying and bombed out buildings?

Right or wrong! Yes, food for thought but yes, there is an alternative view. For the last 5,000 years, the basic premise of war has been:

We're the good guys; the other side is evil and needs to be destroyed.
If God is on our side; why in the world is he not on the other side. Does God sit high overhead and think that NATO is good but the Russians are bad? I give God a lot more credit than that.
 
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chic said:
That's the problem in a nutshell. No one knows exactly what is going on, yet people are sabre rattling and casting blame and calling for war and I'm like, wait a minute... 2 months ago everybody was afraid of their governments forcing them to be vaxxed without informed consent, then suddenly someone flips a switch and the same people who hated the unvaxxed began hating on Putin and calling for war and now they hate anyone who doesn't hate Putin and call for war as they do.

This is just another thing to try to divide us. :(
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Everybody?
 
Pepper said:
Meant Dubya.
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Since folks are into naming names already in the thread, you didn't really have to specify. It was both Bushes, both Clintons (Hillary more than Bill as Obama's Sec of State though he is a CFR member), Obama, Reagan and Trump to an extent ....when the permanent Neocons could work around him.

Before anyone freaks out at the list, trace the Neocons in the various administrations ...lots of overlap. It kinda takes the fun out of political bickering when you realize other than one scary anomaly, at core, long-term Democrats and Republicans are basically the same when it comes to foreign policy and the very lucrative war industry.

.
 
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AnnieA said:
Since folks are into naming names already in the thread, you didn't really have to specify. It was both Bushes, both Clintons (Hillary more than Bill as Obama's Sec of State though he is a CFR member), Obama, Reagan and Trump to an extent ....when the permanent Neocons could work around him.

Before anyone freaks out at the list, trace the Neocons in the various administrations ...lots of overlap. It kinda takes the fun out of political bickering when you realize other than one scary anomaly, at core, long-term Democrats and Republicans are basically the same when it comes to foreign policy and the very lucrative war industry.

.
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Yep, we have an unfortunate history of bipartisan war stupidity...
 
I have actually been proud of the NATO leaders. Had even one of them taken quick offense to all of this and stepped in, the entire conflict could have very quickly escalated into WWIII. They have been cautious, they have been calm and they have stepped up to "wage war" in an entirely new way. The sanctions, the economic response, the control of banking/currency and their use of new technology has been impressive. This is a conflict in a very different way. Of course, I am appalled at the death and destruction and want it to stop! But, it has been fascinating to watch as the cause and effects take place. Perhaps it will be contained and our restraint will save many millions of lives beyond the borders - hopefully over soon.
 
Packerjohn said:
NATO is to blame for trying to get Ukraine to join.
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NATO could have gotten Ukraine into the organization back in 2008 and at various point along the way, but refused.
Packerjohn said:
Putin will not accept NATO nuclear weapons in Eastern Ukraine pointed toward Moscow; a short distance away.
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Latvia is a mere 100 miles further from Moscow, than eastern Ukraine. Less than a minute difference from launch to detonation.

I would say that NATO is on its last legs as this point and desperately needs the Ukrainians to halt Russian aggression at whatever cost. The notion that NATO is stronger than ever, is merely a "feel good" spin for the alarmed and frightened masses. Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania probably understand this better than we do.

Yes, it is important to have that feeling of moral superiority, however false it might be.
 
I think that over time, it will all end in tears for us in the west, the wheels are starting to fall off already, the entire global economy is starting to feel the effects of slower growth and faster inflation.
 
Sanctioned Russian businessperson Oleg Tinkov blasted his nation's "insane" war against Ukraine and called on Western nations to give Vladimir Putin "a clear exit to save his face and stop this massacre." Boris Johnson sanctioned Tinkov, freezing his personal assets in the UK.
 
mellowyellow said:
I think that over time, it will all end in tears for us in the west, the wheels are starting to fall off already, the entire global economy is starting to feel the effects of slower growth and faster inflation.
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That's correct. So far, this war has been fought in a "conventional" manner. However, there are far more devastating means for Russia and NATO to engage in....excluding nuclear weapons.

Consider this....the entire developed world relies on sophisticated electronics to function. Everything from GPS, to communications, cellphones, etc., ALL rely on satellites. If those satellite signals get disrupted, much of the global economies would grind to a halt. The supply chain shortages that would quickly occur would make the toilet paper shortages from last year seem like a minor inconvenience. Russia could target several of these satellites, and quickly bring the entire western world to a sudden halt. We could do the same, and bring Russia to its knees.

And then....there are the sophisticated "hackers"....which Russia seems to have plenty of. No matter how "secure" our financial systems currently are, a major effort on the part of these hackers could shut down our banks, businesses and utilities, etc., for days...maybe weeks.

In today's world, there are "Weapons" that can do more damage, far quicker, than any amount of bombs and bullets.
 
I feel like Putin's ego is now involved so he won't concern himself with the idea of war crimes, or named a terrorist country. If he has to do anything in Ukraine he will and when he feels he won there what country will be next?
 
Don M. said:
That's correct. So far, this war has been fought in a "conventional" manner. However, there are far more devastating means for Russia and NATO to engage in....excluding nuclear weapons.

Consider this....the entire developed world relies on sophisticated electronics to function. Everything from GPS, to communications, cellphones, etc., ALL rely on satellites. If those satellite signals get disrupted, much of the global economies would grind to a halt. The supply chain shortages that would quickly occur would make the toilet paper shortages from last year seem like a minor inconvenience. Russia could target several of these satellites, and quickly bring the entire western world to a sudden halt. We could do the same, and bring Russia to its knees.

And then....there are the sophisticated "hackers"....which Russia seems to have plenty of. No matter how "secure" our financial systems currently are, a major effort on the part of these hackers could shut down our banks, businesses and utilities, etc., for days...maybe weeks.

In today's world, there are "Weapons" that can do more damage, far quicker, than any amount of bombs and bullets.
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Absolutely right, and for anyone who has the time to watch this it is interesting and somewhat scary. We rely on food, water, gasoline, electricity, internet connectivity, etc. in our everyday lives. Russian cyberattacks could shut this all down. What is not shown in the video is that the US has the ability to launch a counter-attack that could put the Russians in a much worse position.

 
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Two Russian Oligarchs Die in Mysterious Circumstances 24 Hours Apart

Former Kremlin official and Gazprombank vice-president Vladislav Avayev, 51, was found dead in his luxury Moscow apartment alongside the bodies of his wife and 13-year-old daughter on Monday. It appeared he had shot them before turning the gun on himself.

And

The following day former Novatek deputy chairman Sergey Protosenya, 55, his wife Natalya, 53, and 18-year-old daughter, Maria, were found dead at their Spanish mansion. The scene suggested the women had been stabbed, before Protosenya hanged himself in the garden.
 
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