America is Already Socialist.
- Thread starter QuickSilver
- Start date
QuickSilver
SF VIP
- Location
- Midwest
That's the point tnthomas.. in order for a society to function it has to have socialist components.. While our business model is primarily Capitalist, our society HAS to band together to accomplish things that improve society as a whole. It is impossible for an individual.. or even a State to provide some necessities as they are far to big.. Our highway system.. our power grid.. our military.. and our social safety nets.. (which especially on this forum are deeply appreciated lol)
You really need to open a dictionary to read the definitions of socialism. We do not have a mandated type of government at all. And socialism is the last step before we get into communism. Those are facts.
We have a special kind of government and it is a Republic, not one of the lower forms where a few can demand of the masses. In a Republic we retain the right to vote and our votes can change all this so called socialism some of you folks think is mandatory. It is not from a federal mandated type of government which is what the dictionaries say is socialism.
How some have gotten so mixed up with words and practices is hard to understand. Socialism is not what we have. Paved highways come from townships, cities, states, prior to the interstates that are directed by federal but built by private companies. Socialism requires the means of production is also federal run. Some bunch of misinformed folks on here.
Being care takers of others has many reasons and certainly not restricted to that of socialism.
QuickSilver
SF VIP
- Location
- Midwest
Again BOB... you are mistaken the FORM of government... ie.. Republic, Democracy, Communism... with the type of economy... Capitalist, Capitalist/socialism (which ours is) and Socialism.. Your are locked into a mindset that for some reason you refuse to consider is wrong.. no matter how many of us try to explain
mitchezz
Member
- Location
- NSW Australia
Bob.........in the simplest language.....Socialism and Democracy can and do co exist. Google Social Democracy. A Socialist is not a Communist. Communism is a one party system, Democracy has more than one party. One of those parties may be a Socialist party or a Conservative party or indeed a Communist party. Independent candidates can also put themselves up for selection. The people i.e the Democracy decide who they wish to elect.
Again, the US is a Republic, nothing else is proper to say. We are a Republic. And that stands above Democracy as our Republic allows minorities to also be part of the governing group where in Democracies the control goes to the majority only.
Walk away from that socialism name and agree that in the US Republic we do make sure we take care of others and share the expenses as much as possible. It is not a federal mandate as socialism requires but a vote of the people that makes it happen.
All those claims that our schools, highways, whatever are socialism is poor wording to say the least. They are not and are not federal mandated either. So they do not fall into the name of socialism. Don't take my word for it, type in a dictionary for 'socialism' and read what comes up.
Walk away from that socialism name and agree that in the US Republic we do make sure we take care of others and share the expenses as much as possible. It is not a federal mandate as socialism requires but a vote of the people that makes it happen.
All those claims that our schools, highways, whatever are socialism is poor wording to say the least. They are not and are not federal mandated either. So they do not fall into the name of socialism. Don't take my word for it, type in a dictionary for 'socialism' and read what comes up.
QuickSilver
SF VIP
- Location
- Midwest
It's hopeless....
QuickSilver
SF VIP
- Location
- Midwest
you are correct....Socialism is a SOCIAL an ECONOMIC system... It is not a form of government... Bob is getting them confused..
It's hopeless....
It's a total waste of time trying to explain anything to Bob. Don't hurt yourself.
mitchezz
Member
- Location
- NSW Australia
I really can't break it down any further. My son is Autistic so I am used to breaking tasks and ideas into very simple steps but I have to confess I am stumped.
Very good. Social Democracy is declared to be a US item. And is sure is not socialism as far too many are saying. Socialism is the wrong word to us to describe this Social Democracy. That the US is looking to use. But then too, look to the goal at the end of this article. And we really do not want socialism in any form in the US.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy
Social democracy is a political ideology that supports economic and social interventions to promote social justice within the framework of a capitalist economy, and a policy regime involving welfare state provisions, collective bargaining arrangements, regulation of the economy in the general interest, redistribution of income and wealth, and a commitment to representative democracy.[SUP][1][/SUP][SUP][2][/SUP][SUP][3][/SUP] Social democracy aims to create the conditions for capitalism to lead to greater egalitarian, democratic and solidaristic outcomes.[SUP][4][/SUP] "Social democracy" is often used in this manner to refer to the social policies prominent in Western and Northern Europe - particularly in reference to the Nordic countries - during the latter half of the 20th century.[SUP][5][/SUP][SUP][6][/SUP] Alternatively, social democracy is defined as a political ideology that advocates a peaceful, evolutionary transition of society from capitalism to socialism using established political processes.[SUP][7][/SUP]
AZ Jim
R.I.P. With Us In Spirit Only
- Location
- SURPRISE, ARIZONA
Speak for yourself only Bob!
QuickSilver
SF VIP
- Location
- Midwest
Bob no one said that our Government was Socialist....just a whole lot of programs....some even you like and depend on.
And hopefully the US Republic will never try to go socialist and support socialism as our way of life, no matter how small it may be. We do, and should continue, try to take care of others problems and weaknesses just by using our kindness and generosity for others. We do not need socialism in the US.
QuickSilver
SF VIP
- Location
- Midwest
Shifting Views of Socialism in America
Bernie Sanders and the shifting views of socialism in America. More here.
If you ask an older person if they are familiar with Bernie Sanders, chances are they may not know who he is. However, if you ask a younger voter, chances are they will not only know who he is, but they are supporting him.
By the way, Bernie Sanders is a self-described Democratic Socialist, and Republicans have been more than happy to scream about socialism to their uninformed base – all while racing each other to the political bottom.
Unlike the typically older and conservative voters who support candidates like Donald Trump or Ben Carson, younger Americans are less likely to tremble in fear at the very mention of socialism. They understand the difference between Democratic Socialism and Marxist Socialism.
Democratic Socialism takes the power back from the elite, and puts it back into the hands of the people. It puts our government to work for us, by providing basic services such as healthcare for all, and affordable education.
These are not radical ideas, and when Americans are polled, they seem to favor Democratic Socialist policies. In 2012, Barack Obama proved that having the older white male vote in America is no longer necessary to be elected president. We embarked on this new chapter of diverse demographics deciding the presidency in 2012, and there is no reason to think this will change in 2016.
While the majority of Sanders supporters seem to be youthful and idealistic, they are not the only ones embracing his ideas. The right wing media echo chamber has done such a masterful job of attaching a stigma to the word socialism, even attempting to imply that his brand of socialism is equivalent to Nazi Germany. To many uninformed Americans, especially the Fox “News” viewers, socialism means a totalitarian government.
They think it’s something resembling Soviet Russia, when in fact, Democratic Socialism is much different than Marxist Socialism. Since the Cold War, the term has become something of a dirty word in U.S. politics: a phrase used not just as a description of a political and economic system, but as an insult used by conservatives in an attempt to tarnish the reputation of their left-leaning rivals.
Despite his self-described socialist views, Sanders is experiencing an unexpected wave of popularity, and is drawing some of the largest, most electric crowds of any presidential candidate so far. (Source) Younger Americans are not afraid of socialism. When polled, forty-nine percent of adults age 18-29 had a favorable view of socialism versus forty-three percent who had a negative view.
While the numbers are close, this is significant in two ways. First, this poll was taken four years ago, and there are many more people who have reached voting age. Secondly, this same poll was taken 20 months prior, and at that time, only forty-three percent of young Americans favored socialism. In twenty months, the favorable percentage increased by six percent. That is quite a large jump, especially when you consider that most people outside of Vermont had never heard of Bernie Sanders at that time. It isn’t hard to see why younger Americans seem to embrace an alternative to unregulated capitalism.
Take someone my age (thirty-two) for example. Ronald Reagan, one of the worst presidents in recent history, was three years into office when I was born. Unions were already beginning to feel the wrath of the relentless attacks at the hands of those pulling the strings for Reagan’s war on the middle class. My generation grew up experiencing a massive shift in wealth from the middle class to the top one percent.
My generation did not get to enjoy an America where good unionized jobs with benefits and pensions were the rule and not the exception. We did not have the ability to come straight out of high school and into a manufacturing job that would support a family, and allow an individual to build a stable, middle class family. We have not experienced the so-called benefits of free market capitalism that we were taught about growing up. In fact, we have experienced the opposite.
We have experienced growing income and wealth inequality. We have experienced a shrinking middle class, where good paying jobs have been outsourced by the millions, only to be replaced with eight dollar an hour service jobs.
America has experienced the devastation that a healthcare system causes when its sole purpose is to make a profit from the suffering of others, and a society that places a higher value on locking up young people instead of educating them.
We have watched the richest nation on earth become a leader among developed nations in childhood poverty. We’ve seen a decade plus of endless war for the sake of profit, and we have seen America abandon its own. This has all happened as a direct result of unregulated, anything-goes capitalism.
More than anyone else, our generation understands that there must be a better way. Enter Bernie Sanders. Here is a seventy-three year old man with unruly hair who goes on and on about income inequality, healthcare being a right and not a privilege, and how education should be affordable for all. Where did these ideas come from?
Bernie Sanders stands for the things that are important to the majority of young Americans. They are tired of the status quo, the establishment. They are tired of being an afterthought. They do not care about petty labels like socialist. They are looking for a leader who represents the people’s interest.
Bernie Sanders is that leader and his rise in recent polls show that. He is popular because he has introduced a better way of doing things to a generation who either withdrew from politics out of frustration, or never considered getting involved until now. Even if Bernie Sanders doesn’t win, his ideas are being discussed by a generation that never realized there was an alternative until now, and that’s a great thing.
Bernie Sanders and the shifting views of socialism in America. More here.
If you ask an older person if they are familiar with Bernie Sanders, chances are they may not know who he is. However, if you ask a younger voter, chances are they will not only know who he is, but they are supporting him.
By the way, Bernie Sanders is a self-described Democratic Socialist, and Republicans have been more than happy to scream about socialism to their uninformed base – all while racing each other to the political bottom.
Unlike the typically older and conservative voters who support candidates like Donald Trump or Ben Carson, younger Americans are less likely to tremble in fear at the very mention of socialism. They understand the difference between Democratic Socialism and Marxist Socialism.
Democratic Socialism takes the power back from the elite, and puts it back into the hands of the people. It puts our government to work for us, by providing basic services such as healthcare for all, and affordable education.
These are not radical ideas, and when Americans are polled, they seem to favor Democratic Socialist policies. In 2012, Barack Obama proved that having the older white male vote in America is no longer necessary to be elected president. We embarked on this new chapter of diverse demographics deciding the presidency in 2012, and there is no reason to think this will change in 2016.
While the majority of Sanders supporters seem to be youthful and idealistic, they are not the only ones embracing his ideas. The right wing media echo chamber has done such a masterful job of attaching a stigma to the word socialism, even attempting to imply that his brand of socialism is equivalent to Nazi Germany. To many uninformed Americans, especially the Fox “News” viewers, socialism means a totalitarian government.
They think it’s something resembling Soviet Russia, when in fact, Democratic Socialism is much different than Marxist Socialism. Since the Cold War, the term has become something of a dirty word in U.S. politics: a phrase used not just as a description of a political and economic system, but as an insult used by conservatives in an attempt to tarnish the reputation of their left-leaning rivals.
Despite his self-described socialist views, Sanders is experiencing an unexpected wave of popularity, and is drawing some of the largest, most electric crowds of any presidential candidate so far. (Source) Younger Americans are not afraid of socialism. When polled, forty-nine percent of adults age 18-29 had a favorable view of socialism versus forty-three percent who had a negative view.
While the numbers are close, this is significant in two ways. First, this poll was taken four years ago, and there are many more people who have reached voting age. Secondly, this same poll was taken 20 months prior, and at that time, only forty-three percent of young Americans favored socialism. In twenty months, the favorable percentage increased by six percent. That is quite a large jump, especially when you consider that most people outside of Vermont had never heard of Bernie Sanders at that time. It isn’t hard to see why younger Americans seem to embrace an alternative to unregulated capitalism.
Take someone my age (thirty-two) for example. Ronald Reagan, one of the worst presidents in recent history, was three years into office when I was born. Unions were already beginning to feel the wrath of the relentless attacks at the hands of those pulling the strings for Reagan’s war on the middle class. My generation grew up experiencing a massive shift in wealth from the middle class to the top one percent.
My generation did not get to enjoy an America where good unionized jobs with benefits and pensions were the rule and not the exception. We did not have the ability to come straight out of high school and into a manufacturing job that would support a family, and allow an individual to build a stable, middle class family. We have not experienced the so-called benefits of free market capitalism that we were taught about growing up. In fact, we have experienced the opposite.
We have experienced growing income and wealth inequality. We have experienced a shrinking middle class, where good paying jobs have been outsourced by the millions, only to be replaced with eight dollar an hour service jobs.
America has experienced the devastation that a healthcare system causes when its sole purpose is to make a profit from the suffering of others, and a society that places a higher value on locking up young people instead of educating them.
We have watched the richest nation on earth become a leader among developed nations in childhood poverty. We’ve seen a decade plus of endless war for the sake of profit, and we have seen America abandon its own. This has all happened as a direct result of unregulated, anything-goes capitalism.
More than anyone else, our generation understands that there must be a better way. Enter Bernie Sanders. Here is a seventy-three year old man with unruly hair who goes on and on about income inequality, healthcare being a right and not a privilege, and how education should be affordable for all. Where did these ideas come from?
Bernie Sanders stands for the things that are important to the majority of young Americans. They are tired of the status quo, the establishment. They are tired of being an afterthought. They do not care about petty labels like socialist. They are looking for a leader who represents the people’s interest.
Bernie Sanders is that leader and his rise in recent polls show that. He is popular because he has introduced a better way of doing things to a generation who either withdrew from politics out of frustration, or never considered getting involved until now. Even if Bernie Sanders doesn’t win, his ideas are being discussed by a generation that never realized there was an alternative until now, and that’s a great thing.
Warrigal
SF VIP
- Location
- Sydney, Australia
I'll drink to all that. I like a society that is a balance of free enterprise and socialism.
Freedom coupled with social responsibility. It's a great system.
Freedom coupled with social responsibility. It's a great system.
QuickSilver
SF VIP
- Location
- Midwest
I agree... that is the BEST system... Free enterprise... capitalism and profit tempered with social programs taking care of our poor and elderly.. as well as things serving the common good... infrastructure... energy...education...etc..
Well, after all that rant of far left thinking, I ask this. If it is so great why is Europe doing so poorly compared to the US. For one example. Average housing in Europe is half the average housing in the US, or Canada, or Australia. Some countries around this world are even smaller than Europe but I use Europe as they are closer to the way us folks live and work. I watch some TV shows about housing here in the US and other countries. It makes me wonder how some of those other countries manage to call their ways better. Kitchen being a hot plate on the patio or porch. Bath rooms being a tub with barely enough room to get by and the same with the toilet and a small stand with a wash basin. To me that is not a better way to live.
Having a government with debts out of control is not a good situation either. And the US has that situation. No matter what kind of ism you may want to call it, lack of control of our debts is a poor way to run a country. Time to back off to a controlled financial schedule or expect to be declared broke like the Greeks were last year. That sure irritated them and it will surely irritate a lot of spend free folks here in the US.
Having a government with debts out of control is not a good situation either. And the US has that situation. No matter what kind of ism you may want to call it, lack of control of our debts is a poor way to run a country. Time to back off to a controlled financial schedule or expect to be declared broke like the Greeks were last year. That sure irritated them and it will surely irritate a lot of spend free folks here in the US.
What a historian wished Bernie Sanders would have said about being a socialist. More here.
What One Historian Wishes Bernie Sanders Said About Being a Socialist
October 14, 2015 | Updated October 15, 2015
by Bernard Weisberger
Last night’s first gotcha question from Anderson Cooper about whether the American people would ever elect a socialist to office was one that Bernie Sanders was no doubt expecting. Progressive historian and BillMoyers.com contributor Bernard Weisberger didn’t think his answer was altogether bad (watch above), but he took time today to write out the response he wishes the other Bernie had given. He also included a response to Hillary Clinton’s later statement about how “Denmark wasn’t the United States.”
Well, first of all, the last I heard Vermont was still an American state and the people of Burlington elected me as mayor four times and were satisfied because I gave them an honest and efficient administration. Then the people of the state as a whole sent me back to the House of Representatives several times, and next to the Senate. They responded to substance, not labels.
I think we’re still smart enough to do that.[As for our not being Denmark, I am not trying to turn the United States into Denmark or any other country in the world. But if we look and see that Denmark has a health care system that treats its people better than ours at lower cost, just as an example, are we forbidden to try it because it hasn’t got a “Made in America” label on it? We’re a lot smarter than that — and saying otherwise is a slander on our people.]
I consider myself a social democrat, yes. And for me, what social democracy simply means is a system that leaves room for small enterprises and individual liberty but also recognizes the fact that we’re all part of a larger community, and what hurts any one group of us eventually hurts us all. So there are some things we don’t leave to the so-called free market.
We don’t want people going hungry or suffering from sickness or at the bottom of the ladder in educational attainments because they can’t afford them — especially when in economic downturns millions of us lose jobs through no fault of our own. So we tax ourselves to put money into a common kitty to make sure those things don’t happen and we’re all the better off for it.
In other words we agree to bear each others’ burdens and make others’ suffering our concern, bound in “brotherly affection.” A far cry from the virtues of unrestricted and unregulated winner-take-all competition.
And do you know that that’s a basic American idea? What I just said comes straight from a sermon preached by minister John Winthrop to the band of fellow Puritans landing in Massachusetts in 1630.
And it’s an idea picked up again and again throughout our history, from early state laws providing for public health and safety and punishing fraud, right on through to the Progressive period and the New Deal when we provided security for our elders, strengthened the bargaining power of workers, created public works programs to stimulate employment and spending, opened space for small business by breaking trusts, and reduced inequality to reasonable levels — without touching the basics of capitalism. That’s the American way and always has been, and I could name a long list of American heroes who embraced it if there were time. So let’s move past labels and start addressing the crises we face now.
What One Historian Wishes Bernie Sanders Said About Being a Socialist
October 14, 2015 | Updated October 15, 2015
by Bernard Weisberger
[*=right]1.4K
Last night’s first gotcha question from Anderson Cooper about whether the American people would ever elect a socialist to office was one that Bernie Sanders was no doubt expecting. Progressive historian and BillMoyers.com contributor Bernard Weisberger didn’t think his answer was altogether bad (watch above), but he took time today to write out the response he wishes the other Bernie had given. He also included a response to Hillary Clinton’s later statement about how “Denmark wasn’t the United States.”
Well, first of all, the last I heard Vermont was still an American state and the people of Burlington elected me as mayor four times and were satisfied because I gave them an honest and efficient administration. Then the people of the state as a whole sent me back to the House of Representatives several times, and next to the Senate. They responded to substance, not labels.
I think we’re still smart enough to do that.[As for our not being Denmark, I am not trying to turn the United States into Denmark or any other country in the world. But if we look and see that Denmark has a health care system that treats its people better than ours at lower cost, just as an example, are we forbidden to try it because it hasn’t got a “Made in America” label on it? We’re a lot smarter than that — and saying otherwise is a slander on our people.]
I consider myself a social democrat, yes. And for me, what social democracy simply means is a system that leaves room for small enterprises and individual liberty but also recognizes the fact that we’re all part of a larger community, and what hurts any one group of us eventually hurts us all. So there are some things we don’t leave to the so-called free market.
We don’t want people going hungry or suffering from sickness or at the bottom of the ladder in educational attainments because they can’t afford them — especially when in economic downturns millions of us lose jobs through no fault of our own. So we tax ourselves to put money into a common kitty to make sure those things don’t happen and we’re all the better off for it.
In other words we agree to bear each others’ burdens and make others’ suffering our concern, bound in “brotherly affection.” A far cry from the virtues of unrestricted and unregulated winner-take-all competition.
And do you know that that’s a basic American idea? What I just said comes straight from a sermon preached by minister John Winthrop to the band of fellow Puritans landing in Massachusetts in 1630.
And it’s an idea picked up again and again throughout our history, from early state laws providing for public health and safety and punishing fraud, right on through to the Progressive period and the New Deal when we provided security for our elders, strengthened the bargaining power of workers, created public works programs to stimulate employment and spending, opened space for small business by breaking trusts, and reduced inequality to reasonable levels — without touching the basics of capitalism. That’s the American way and always has been, and I could name a long list of American heroes who embraced it if there were time. So let’s move past labels and start addressing the crises we face now.
So lifting millions out of poverty and starvation, as China managed to do, would not be considered "socialistic"?
#72
Why is a large house better than a smallish, compact one (or an apartment)?
A large house for one or two persons is such a waste(why not use those many huge places to house the millions of very needy homeless?)
Suppose this idea would be branded as socialistic, or "heaven forbid" communistic!
Why is a large house better than a smallish, compact one (or an apartment)?
A large house for one or two persons is such a waste(why not use those many huge places to house the millions of very needy homeless?)
Suppose this idea would be branded as socialistic, or "heaven forbid" communistic!