Another religious thread of speculation

bobcat said:
Now I am confused. You said: "Yes, but who are we to mince words with Christ, who tells us to pray thus: "Our Father who art in heaven... " --The Bible".
That sounds like a believer.

Since you quoted the Bible, I would assume you believe in it's authenticity (Meaning not the ramblings of crackpot authors). Since it (And Jesus) repeatedly testifies to the existence of God, it seems rather peculiar to take a rather neutral position on the central tenet of it's teaching.

I'm not being critical here, I am mostly curious and as I mentioned, a bit confused. Just asking for clarity.
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I am a Christian by long inheritance and by upbringing and because I respect my family and because of Christian values.
But I can't believe in a personal God, and I don't know if there is a deity. I believe there are many like me.
Because the God of the bible is not impossible, I'm happy to provide what I think may be the faithful Christian's answer to any question. If I can.
In life I am never asked the personal question: Do you believe in God? Because it's a private matter --not relevant to the community. If I were asked, I would say, 'I don't know'.
But here on our forum things are different, we are after the truth and having fun.
 

gruntlabor said:
I am a Christian by long inheritance and by upbringing and because I respect my family and because of Christian values.
But I can't believe in a personal God, and I don't know if there is a deity. I believe there are many like me.
Because the God of the bible is not impossible, I'm happy to provide what I think may be the faithful Christian's answer to any question. If I can.
In life I am never asked the personal question: Do you believe in God? Because it's a private matter --not relevant to the community. If I were asked, I would say, 'I don't know'.
But here on our forum things are different, we are after the truth and having fun.
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It makes more sense now. Thanks for clarifying.
 
JustDave said:
For what it's worth, in a private conversation when I was 11 years old, I told my Lutheran pastor of my doubts about god. He confided that he wasn't sure either, but he chose to believe anyway. I'm not sure if this qualifies as agnosticism because I had doubts about how honestly he was addressing my concern. Also, agnosticism is not about doubt, but rather the inability to know, although many people define it as doubt. Depending on one's personal definition, agnostic Christian, might qualify as an oxymoron.
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At about the same age, I said the same to my mother. She slapped my face.
I'm a Lutheran too. I don't believe your pastor was an honest man.
Oxymorons abound in nature.
 

Inept said:
That makes no sense. I said "everything we know is based upon evidence and proof. " Why do you now introduce something we don't know and believe it's relevant? It isn't.
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there is no evidence or proof for either belief or unbelief. There is no evidence or proof. There are no facts
That is the only fact I have to convey.
 
I'm not preaching to anyone. Believe what you want. Not trying to convince anyone. Not evangelizing.
Just trying to point out that opposing beliefs of the non existing of God are no different the the beliefs that he does exist. THEY ARE WHAT YOU BELEIVE,
NOT FACTS.
So when your comments include the word fact.............basically................you are wrong.
You don't know anymore than I do.
My faith tells me I am right. Can't explain it, just know. My life has been led by my belief in God. I have never been disappointed. I don't always agree but I accept. I know he is there and to be honest, if he wasn't I would be lost. Do I need him to be there or is he really there? Most experiences say he is there.
No more to add.
 
rbtvgo said:
I'm not preaching to anyone. Believe what you want. Not trying to convince anyone. Not evangelizing.
Just trying to point out that opposing beliefs of the non existing of God are no different the the beliefs that he does exist. THEY ARE WHAT YOU BELEIVE,
NOT FACTS.
So when your comments include the word fact.............basically................you are wrong.
You don't know anymore than I do.
My faith tells me I am right. Can't explain it, just know. My life has been led by my belief in God. I have never been disappointed. I don't always agree but I accept. I know he is there and to be honest, if he wasn't I would be lost. Do I need him to be there or is he really there? Most experiences say he is there.
No more to add.
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So you are saying that it doesn't matter if you believe that God exists or not, there is no difference. It is beliefs. I agree with this. Without belief, it wouldn't matter either.
 
gruntlabor said:
We know nothing. The chicken is fed daily. That is not proof that it will be fed tomorrow.
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Inept said:
That makes no sense. I said "everything we know is based upon evidence and proof. " Why do you now introduce something we don't know and believe it's relevant? It isn't.
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rbtvgo said:
there is no evidence or proof for either belief or unbelief. There is no evidence or proof. There are no facts
That is the only fact I have to convey.
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Exactly. Gruntlabor said, "We know nothing" and to support that conviction he further states, "The chicken is fed daily. That is not proof that it will be fed tomorrow." So, it is a fact that the chicken is fed daily or to be more specific the chicken was fed today. That's a fact that we can believe in because you and I fed it today. "Tomorrow" has nothing at all to do with the subject. 🐤 So, I repeat,"everything we know is based upon evidence and proof" which does not include God or what will happen tomorrow.
 
Inept said:
Exactly. Gruntlabor said, "We know nothing" and to support that conviction he further states, "The chicken is fed daily. That is not proof that it will be fed tomorrow." So, it is a fact that the chicken is fed daily or to be more specific the chicken was fed today. That's a fact that we can believe in because you and I fed it today. "Tomorrow" has nothing at all to do with the subject. 🐤 So, I repeat,"everything we know is based upon evidence and proof" which does not include God or what will happen tomorrow.
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I puzzled over this part of the discussion. Granted, I puzzled, but did not labor, and then I gave up because I couldn't make sense out of it, which often happens when something makes no sense. But with your analysis, easily see the leaps of logic and flaws in the argument. I probably could have done it on my own, but I was losing interest. So thanks for that.
 
Inept said:
That makes no sense. I said "everything we know is based upon evidence and proof. " Why do you now introduce something we don't know and believe it's relevant? It isn't.
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It is. The point was that you think you do know. Science reaches conclusions based on empirical evidence, which includes the "chicken and tomorrow" question. And your scientific "evidence and proof" is today as corrupt and full of error as religion, my opinion.
 
gruntlabor said:
It is. The point was that you think you do know. Science reaches conclusions based on empirical evidence, which includes the "chicken and tomorrow" question. And your scientific "evidence and proof" is today as corrupt and full of error as religion, my opinion.
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You are very much confused.
 
Paco Dennis said:
So you are saying that it doesn't matter if you believe that God exists or not, there is no difference. It is beliefs. I agree with this. Without belief, it wouldn't matter either.
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That's the thing. We all have beliefs. We depend on them to see us through life.
You hit me with something I had to think about. "without belief' Why do I believe what I do??????????????????
Let me see if I can explain this without sounding preachy.
My belief has been reinforced over the years with events and actions that have taken place as a result of prayer and patience as to outcome. The results were what I needed and I cannot explain this.
From a human stand point they were arbitrary answers but to me they were answers to prayer to God. They were perfect for the situation and problem I was confronting. Hence I have grown to understand as much as I can about God and how he works. It is not simply pray and receive. In any situation you are not the only one involved and that's the extradenary thing. The answers always reflect all parties involved.
The years have convinced me of a truth that I hold dear. God is there, he listens, he response and he does not tolerate BS.
You either believe in him or you do not. He is not going to try and convince you.
 
rbtvgo said:
The years have convinced me of a truth that I hold dear. God is there, he listens, he response and he does not tolerate BS.
You either believe in him or you do not. He is not going to try and convince you.
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Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein. --Mark 10:14
 
rbtvgo said:
That's the thing. We all have beliefs. We depend on them to see us through life.
You hit me with something I had to think about. "without belief' Why do I believe what I do??????????????????
Let me see if I can explain this without sounding preachy.
My belief has been reinforced over the years with events and actions that have taken place as a result of prayer and patience as to outcome. The results were what I needed and I cannot explain this.
From a human stand point they were arbitrary answers but to me they were answers to prayer to God. They were perfect for the situation and problem I was confronting. Hence I have grown to understand as much as I can about God and how he works. It is not simply pray and receive. In any situation you are not the only one involved and that's the extradenary thing. The answers always reflect all parties involved.
The years have convinced me of a truth that I hold dear. God is there, he listens, he response and he does not tolerate BS.
You either believe in him or you do not. He is not going to try and convince you.
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That was explained very well, thank you. Your belief is deeply personal, and includes life all around you. There is that interesting question some people ask after an explanation like yours; "So, how is that working out for you?" I am very happy that your faith is working out so well for you. :)
 
Inept said:
I am an Agnostic. I deny the possibility of an "agnostic Christian" existing. Believers. Disbelievers. Non-believers.
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No self professing Christian will ever acknowledge that they are uncertain in their faith in God. That is true. But there are many who will emphasize that it isn’t their knowledge that is the issue but rather their allegiance. Most will acknowledge that there is much they don’t know about God and what they believe is what they take on faith from the Bible. They also are most of them content to know what they are given to understand in their reading of the Bible, though some are way too willing to speak on behalf of God.

I’m an agnostic too. I’m certainly not a Christian as there is no creed I will sign off on just to belong. While I can read plenty of truth in the Bible I don’t take it as authoritative. Likewise I find plenty of truth in Shakespeare without taking him as authoritative either. There is truth to be found in every wisdom tradition as well as in much literature. But none of them has an exclusive claim to the truth. Some like Hinduism recognize that and a few are convinced only they are right.
 
MarkD said:
No self professing Christian will ever acknowledge that they are uncertain in their faith in God.
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Are you saying that all professing Christians are uncertain but will deny it ... or that those Christians who are uncertain will deny it?
MarkD said:
But there are many who will emphasize that it isn’t their knowledge that is the issue but rather their allegiance.
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This has to be true of those who were baptised but are non-practising.
MarkD said:
Most will acknowledge that there is much they don’t know about God and what they believe is what they take on faith from the Bible. They also are most of them content to know what they are given to understand in their reading of the Bible, though some are way too willing to speak on behalf of God.
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I am not so sure they will acknowledge it. Anyway, faith is an ambiguous term. Faith in God – Fear of God – Trust in God. Put them against the wall and demand an explanation and they will dash for the exit or circle the logic by claiming that if you acquire faith you’ll understand.
 
Paco Dennis said:
So you are saying that it doesn't matter if you believe that God exists or not, there is no difference. It is beliefs. I agree with this. Without belief, it wouldn't matter either.
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lt makes me nervous when l have to explain what and how l really believe because it's not built on stone and can change only because we grow in how we think. l'm not static and partly because on how l grew up in my family with its diversity.
 
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Olivia said:
lt makes me nervous when l have to explain what and how l really believe because it's not built on stone and can change only because we grow in how we think. l'm not static and partly because on how l grew up in my family with it's diversity.
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Religion is a bit like politics. If the subject makes you nervous it's better not to engage in the topic very much unless you can maintain a strictly academic approach. Generally speaking this approach is the A to Z of Agnosticism but Theists and Atheists have difficulties with it. Particularly Theists who believe in missionary stuff.
 
Inept said:
Religion is a bit like politics. If the subject makes you nervous it's better not to engage in the topic very much unless you can maintain a strictly academic approach. Generally speaking this approach is the A to Z of Agnosticism but Theists and Atheists have difficulties with it. Particularly Theists who believe in missionary stuff.
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No, it's not the subject that makes me nervous. It's how l explain myself and am l doing It right in how l mean it. It's not like politics to me because politics is mainly used to convince someone to think the same as you do.
 

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