Another Ruby Ridge type of attack about to take place in Nevada.

The way I read this...the conservatory is being closed down due to lack of funds and the sick and disease turtles that can not fend for themselves will be euthanized...this is the humane thing to do.

As for this rancher character, he is a moocher and a thief, he is scamming the system and breaking the law, if his thinking was correct, anyone could move into this land and use it for any profit they desired....never mind all of the hoopla he is stirring up about the big bad government.
 
From this great distance, it looks like that to me too, Jackie.
His story lacks credibility when you use a common sense filter.

The tortoises are a complete red herring IMO.
I think the issue of csg leases is another diversion.
 
Jackie22 said:
The way I read this...the conservatory is being closed down due to lack of funds and the sick and disease turtles that can not fend for themselves will be euthanized...this is the humane thing to do.

As for this rancher character, he is a moocher and a thief, he is scamming the system and breaking the law, if his thinking was correct, anyone could move into this land and use it for any profit they desired....never mind all of the hoopla he is stirring up about the big bad government.
Click to expand...

Obviously, if the government wants to eliminate someone; they don't hesitate to bring in the armed attack teams to do it; all the while blaming it on the people they are killing.
There was nothing humane about burning alive all those poor children at Waco, nor about the sharpshooter shooting Randy Weavers innocent wife as she stood in her doorway holding her baby. Or their son, as he was trying desperately to save his dog and run away from the shooters to the safety of his home, and they killed both the child and the dog, shooting the boy in the back as he ran to safety.

If they are killing the poor tortoises; it is not because they are caring about them; but because
they have found a better way to make money from that facility and the land around it.



HappyFlowerLady
 
The more I hear about this, the more I feel that Bundy is the problem here, having too many cattle on the land, not paying his grazing fees to the BLM, which other ranchers were happy to do, etc. It is not his land, so if he doesn't abide by the laws in regards to its use, then he is the cause of the problem. Can't believe this has been going on for so long, many other ranchers do not support his 'fight'. Here's just one persons opinion, and some comments that follow...http://www.stgeorgeutah.com/news/ar...tality-costs-him-grazing-rights/#.U0iwKzjjios
 
Actually, the more i read about this, the more the whole thing resembles a pile of snakes. It is not just an issue of a rancher and the government, it is several issues, all twisted together, and from what i can see; it is not being handled properly by either side.

1. Bundy is supposed to be paying for his cattle grazing on the land, and he refuses; therefore, he should have either paid the grazing fee, or removed the cattle. It doesn't matter that his grandfather grazed cows there free. (That is kind of like getting a parking ticket for not putting a quarter in the meter; it doesn't matter if your grandfather used to tie his horse to the hitching rail for free. That was then, and this is now.

2. The cattle are hurting the life of the desert tortoise. If this is true, then that land should not be open to cattle grazing to ANY rancher, if it is a sanctuary, then it should have not been allowed to be used by paying a grazing fee.

3. Apparently the land is to be leased to a large Chinese solar company. The cattle are standing in the way of a much larger income than the BLM gets from grazing cows; so this is possibly a reason for the sudden escalation in removal tactics.

4. There has been oil exploration nearby, so this is also a possibility of a large income from the area; and adds to the possible government removal of the cows.

All together, there are several things all going on at once, and probably several hidden agendas, maybe even more than we have seen thus far.
If 5,000 armed paramilitary come into the area, set to defend Bundys (supposed) rights; I think it is about a 99% chance that someone is going to start shooting, and then we will have a really bad situation, with a good possibility of many people being killed. This would possibly even cause the US to go under martial law if it gets out of hand, and spreads to other states.

Other than the government just walking away, or Bundy giving in, and paying the fine, I just don't see a peaceful ending to this.


HappyFlowerLady
 
Apparently the land is to be leased to a large Chinese solar company. The cattle are standing in the way of a much larger income than the BLM gets from grazing cows; so this is possibly a reason for the sudden escalation in removal tactics.
Click to expand...
How sure are you about this statement ? It is, after all, a national park.
Don't you think there would be an almighty stink if a government leased a national park to a foreign government? Newspaper headlines and public petitions at the very least.

The geology of Nevada, if the graphic referred to earlier is anything to go by, indicates many possibilities for oil extraction. What makes the land on which Bundy is grazing for free is so vital? But that is a side issue.

It might be more enlightening to look into Bundy's history to see why the BLM personnel are treating him as potentially very dangerous.
 
Dame Warrigal said:
How sure are you about this statement ? It is, after all, a national park.
Don't you think there would be an almighty stink if a government leased a national park to a foreign government? Newspaper headlines and public petitions at the very least.

The geology of Nevada, if the graphic referred to earlier is anything to go by, indicates many possibilities for oil extraction. What makes the land on which Bundy is grazing for free is so vital? But that is a side issue.

It might be more enlightening to look into Bundy's history to see why the BLM personnel are treating him as potentially very dangerous.
Click to expand...

Warri, here is an article from 2012 about the Chinese solar plant proposed for Nevada . It was being negotiated by the son of Harry Reid, and his son says that the father is not involved, but later articles say that he is part of it.
As for there being protests about this happening..... probably not.
Two reasons:
First, people just don't really care now days. (the dumbing down of Americans) They only notice what affects them directly.
Second, our news media are paid(off) to only present news they want us to hear, generally about some celebrity or other, rather than something that is actually important to us.
For instance, this morning, aside from saying that the government has declared the area around Bundy's ranch a no-fly zone (meaning there will be no aerial coverage of events there), we have seen NO coverage of what is happening there. Right now, they are covering the waning popularity of Seaworld .(sigh...)

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Govern...se-Solar-Panel-Plant-In-5-Billion-Nevada-Deal



HappyFlowerLady
 
Dammit, I had a detailed response prepared but I lost it.

Here goes again.

I know nothing first hand about this situation but I'm wary of taking everything at face value.

First Cliven Bundy - he has been fighting the Federal Government for years and has been using the media to promote his position.
He has also threatened violence from his family and from militias. He claims to obey all Nevada laws but no federal laws. It sounds like he is a successionist.

Details here: http://mediamatters.org/blog/2014/04/10/right-wing-media-are-throwing-gas-on-a-ranchers/198841

Concerning the Chinese energy project. Is it in Clark County?
The only reference to its location I have found is this
The Langfang, China-based ENN Energy Group hopes to build what would be the largest solar energy complex in America. The site chosen with Rory Reid's guidance is in tiny Laughlin, Nevada, a gambling town of 7,300 along the Colorado River, 90 miles south of Las Vegas.

County officials have said that they were so thrilled to recruit a company to the area, with the prospect of thousands of new local jobs, that they were eager to negotiate.
From Reuters: http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/08/31/us-usa-china-reid-solar-idUSBRE87U06D20120831
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Is this a national park? Does it have anything to do with the place where Bundy is grazing his cattle illegally?
 
More map research. As far as I can see, the solar plant is a long ways away from the Bundy cattle; so I think that is another non-issue, just like the tortoise.
Laughlin is 90 miles south of Las Vegas, and along the Arizona border. Bundy ranch is near Bunkerville, which is way north of LV, and near the Utah border. So, no relevance that I can see.
As far as Bundy being a secessionist, I haven't seen that part (at least yet), just that he believes Nevada law supercedes the federal law at this point.

The latest information that I can find is good news. There is a possible negotiation by Sheriff Gillespie, which would settle the issue, and everyone can go home, and no bloodshed happening. The pictures show the protesters pretty much harassing the LE at the scene, but not real agression from the BLM , just trying to keep people from violence in the protests.
At this point, it would seems that the LEO on scene are doing a good job, and not provoking anything; so I am hoping for a peaceful ending to this now.

http://www.8newsnow.com/story/25230...le-cattle-battle-between-cliven-bundy-and-blm



HappyFlowerLady
 
Glad to see restraint on the part of the BLM but I think they have lost the battle. Their costs have probably exceeded the amount of money owed by Bundy and the sale of 352 out of 500 animals won't cover his unpaid fees, much less the costs of security. After two court orders against him it will be interesting to see whether he now removes the rest of his herd or takes out a valid lease.

I'm guessing he does neither but I reckon that he will be loud and strong on any TV show that will have him.

http://www.8newsnow.com/story/25228744/blm-state-director-speaks-out-about-bundy-dispute
 
I'm guessing he does neither but I reckon that he will be loud and strong on any TV show that will have him.


You can be sure Liberman will get him on the show.
 
I think that you only get a part of what is going on over here, Warri, and so you see things in a different light than most us here in America see them.

We have Mexicans sneaking into our country in droves, disrespecting our flag, our country, and our customs, and our government doesn't care. In fact, they now get the same welfare benefits as those of us who are American citizens, and have lived and worked here, and the soldiers who have gone above and beyond, to serve our country. While illegal aliens receive benefits they should never get; our soldiers and veterans have been getting their (hard-earned) benefits cut.
The government allows the illegal aliens to do whatever they please; but wants to fine the American rancher who is growing beef to feed us, that makes sense ???

We have people like Al Sharpton who everyone knows that he owes well over $1,000,000 in taxes; yet he is entertained and welcomed by our president; but we have a hard-working rancher who owes grazing fees; and the whole military is sent out to get him....no way ! !

America used to be considered a Christian nation, and was founded on Christian principles. Our colleges all started as Christian colleges. Now, any kind of non-Christian monument is allowed anywhere, but Christian children are not even supposed to pray over their school lunches anymore.

This is just an example of what is happening here in America. Even though Mr. Bundy needs to make changes as far as paying the grazing fee (he was apparently paying it to the State of Nevada) , we still get upset that the government won't even try to protect our borders from illegal aliens, but they go all out to stop illegal cows.


HappyFlowerLady
 
I'm aware of those issues, HFL, because I pay attention to overseas news as well as the local.
You do seem to be using somewhat exaggerated language which is what I tend to react to.

Examples -
Mexicans sneaking into our country in droves, disrespecting our flag, our country, and our customs, and our government doesn't care.
Click to expand...
I think most of them are just looking for work. I haven't seen any evidence of mass disrespect for the flag at least, nothing like the disrespect that occurred during the protests against the Vietnam war. What American customs do they disrespect?
While illegal aliens receive benefits they should never get; our soldiers and veterans have been getting their (hard-earned) benefits cut.
Click to expand...
As I understand it, there is some recognition of Mexicans who have lived in the US for many years, working and raising children. Their children are now being recognised as permanent residents but not necessarily as citizens. Correct me if I am wrong. What benefits are being cut for soldiers and veterans, and why?

I apologise for being a PIA and for having a somewhat forensic approach to posts. I don't just do it on American forums. I look behind lots of statements on Australian forums as well and often find that they are either untrue rumours (we call them furphies) or exaggerations. A lot of them are promoted by radio shock jocks who do it to boost their ratings. Feel free to tell me I'm a PIA. I won't be offended. I won't change either. Who was it that said "Here I stand, I can do no other"?
 
You are just proving my very point. You only see part of the news about what is happening over here, and I believe that you probably pay closer attention than most people who live overseas, and you obviously understand what you do see.

I do not have the pictures to post that show you what I am asserting; but they ARE on the internet if you choose to look for documentation.
About the Mexicans, I am not talking about the ones who have been here for years, and have legal children here. I am talking about the ones that sneak in. These are the ones that end up like that poor bunch who were found barricaded in the house in Houston Tx a few weeks back. They come in illegally, and most of them can barely speak English. They buy a stolen identity or get one from someone who is here with a green card, and then they find cash jobs or girlfriends so they can live. They burn our flag, and put up the Mexico flag.

Earlier immigrants to America came here legally, learned the language and the history, served in the military, and truly WANTED to become American citizens. These new people don't want that. They use this country to work and send money back to Mexico, and they are militant against the very country that feeds them.
As for the veterans, the government just made another cut to their benefits, and they are also talking about closing the commissaries where our military and veterans are allowed to save a bit of money shopping.

I am not against immigrants here. I just want it to be done legally, and not to the detriment of the American people, and especially not to the detriment of our military veterans !
It also upsets me that I, and many other seniors, (who have lived here and worked hard all our lives for these benefits) live on below poverty level incomes, and have our assistance cut, or prices for it raised; while people who have come here illegally are allowed to sign up and receive these benefits with no right to them at all.
And no, I do not see you as a "PIA", as you call it, Warri. I see you as a caring person, who searches everything out , looking for the truth. As do I .
But sometimes, we are like the old story of the blind men trying to describe an elephant, each from the part they are touching. Many different descriptions from the different observation points; but not necessarily wrong; just incomplete.


HappyFlowerLady
 
HFL, I agree, I can't get health benefits, or any kind of benefits. But as Michael points out, you can go stand in in the welfare line, and look around, and most of the people are wearing more jewelry than we ever were able to afford. Their cars are expensive and no more than two or three years old, and I can't even dream of spending the money they spend on the most fashionable wardrobes they seem to need.
We see this in all the nationalities, except Caucasians.
Those factors seem to mean nothing, let alone the fact that most of them are illegals.
But, I guess fighting those issues, won't get you elected. :what1:
 
I am talking about the ones that sneak in. These are the ones that end up like that poor bunch who were found barricaded in the house in Houston Tx a few weeks back. They come in illegally, and most of them can barely speak English. They buy a stolen identity or get one from someone who is here with a green card, and then they find cash jobs or girlfriends so they can live. They burn our flag, and put up the Mexico flag.
Click to expand...
You see that, this is what doesn't make any sense to me. Why would illegal immigrants draw attention to themselves by burning the American flag and hoisting the Mexican one ? I would be trying to keep a low profile.

Is this the incident in Houston that you were referring to?

http://www.khou.com/home/Police-Men-barricade-patrons-inside-bar-set-building-ablaze-149286595.html
 
The incident i am talking about in Houston, might have been the wrong Texas town. It was in one of our topics a few weeks back, and I think Ina posted about it. The illegals had paid the "coyotes" (or whatever they are called) to smuggle them into America; but then they locked them in some dumpy house and tried to get ransom money from their relatives. I will look for the article for you, if you don't remember discussing it earlier. Someone reported it to the police, and they found these half-starved illegals locked in the house, about stacked on top of each other, there were so many of them.
http://foxnewsinsider.com/2014/03/2...al-immigrants-found-cramped-texas-stash-house

Warrigal, what you are saying is what should be happening with the flag-burners. But these people have come here, and they know we are not doing anything to stop them; so they are brazen in their anti-american activities. Their idea is that the southern states should belong to Mexico, and they want to take those states, plus more, back for Mexico.
Here is just one quick video of what is going on all over in the US, and especially in the states bordering Mexico. Watch this, and then tell me that these are just "peaceful immigrants who want a better life and a job" .

http://youtu.be/BBtSdwRqLbc



HappyFlowerLady
 
I never followed this story, but it seems to be all over the media and I've heard some reports from both sides. Here's just one example of the other side of the story...

Cliven Bundy has no claim to federal land or grazing
...http://www.thewildlifenews.com/2014/04/14/cliven-bundy-has-no-claim-to-federal-land-and-grazing/

He has no “right” to graze it.

The federal courts have struck down every challenge Bundy has made about his claims, and has issued not one, but two, court orders to remove his trespass cattle. It’s not his land and he has no right to graze it.

The simple truth of the matter is that Bundy is a freeloading, welfare rancher who has an inflated sense of entitlement. It also appears that he and his supporters’ use of threats and intimidation likely violated several federal laws. Inasmuch as they used (such as pointed) weapons to cause the government back down, it can be considered an armed insurrection.

What about Bundy’s claim that his forebears bought the land he is now accused of trespass grazing upon? This land was once Mexican land, and was won by the United States after the Mexican-American War.

It is part of what is known as the “Mexican Cession.” All of Nevada, California, Arizona and most of New Mexico were part of the Cession.

Much of this land was privatized under various grants and laws such as the Homestead Act and the Desert Lands Act, plus mining claims. Several million acres were granted to Nevada for state lands, but those lands that were not privatized have always been Mexican lands or United States lands owned by the U.S. government.
Click to expand...
 
I'm always open to getting the facts Ina, and chances are we don't have all of them yet anyway. I don't love the government either, but you have to look at the facts realistically before taking sides. I hear good and bad about this character, I think he should probably just pay what is owed and be done with it, like all the other ranchers in the area do. It seems like he hates the federal government and won't give them any acknowledgement or consideration whatsoever, but he does want his cattle to graze on their land, and for free no less, doesn't make sense really. He feels he's special and entitled? Who knows, maybe it's just me, maybe I'm not getting something, lol.
 
No Sea, I think you are getting it. There are people who think their personal and family history grant them the entitlement you speak of. They believe the entitlement is their right by heredity. Go figure!! :what1:
 
It looks like there are all kinds of accusations flying around on this issue. One of the things that is being said that really ruffles my feathers is Senator Harry Reid saying that the people who supported rancher Bundy are basically terrorists. Todd Starnes, from Fox News was reporting this, so I think it is valid.
Here is a quote from one of the Bundy neighbors about the whole situation, and this puts an interesting light on what is behind all this, too:


There have been a lot of people criticizing Clive Bundy because he did not pay his grazing fees for 20 years. The public is also probably wondering why so many other cowboys are supporting Mr. Bundy even though they paid their fees and Clive did not. What you people probably do not realize is that on every rancher’s grazing permit it says the following: “You are authorized to make grazing use of the lands, under the jurisdiction of the Bureau of Land Management and covered by this grazing permit, upon your acceptance of the terms and conditions of this grazing permit and payment of grazing fees when due.” The “mandatory” terms and conditions go on to list the allotment, the number and kind of livestock to be grazed, when the permit begins and ends, the number of active or suspended AUMs (animal units per month), etc.

The terms and conditions also list specific requirements such as where salt or mineral supplements can be located, maximum allowable use of forage levels (40% of annual growth), etc., and include a lot more stringent policies that must be adhered to. Every rancher must sign this “contract” agreeing to abide by the TERMS AND CONDITIONS before he or she can make payment. In the early 90s, the BLM went on a frenzy and drastically cut almost every rancher’s permit because of this desert tortoise issue, even though all of us ranchers knew that cow and desert tortoise had co-existed for a hundred+ years. As an example, a family friend had his permit cut by 90%. For those of you who are non-ranchers, that would be equated to getting your paycheck cut 90%. In 1976 there were approximately 52 ranching permittees in this area of Nevada. Presently, there are 3.
 
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