Attempted double beheading in Melbourne

Warrigal

Warrigal

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Sydney, Australia
An 18 year old man has been shot dead outside a Melbourne police station. He had been acting provocatively in public, waving around the black ISIS flag and uttering threats after having his passport cancelled last week. The police have been aware of him for a number of months.

He was invited down to the police station for a "chat" but when he arrived he phoned the police and asked to meet them in the car park where he attacked two officers with a knife. One of them shot him dead. In his bag was an ISIS flag and a much larger knife for beheading.

Enough softly, softly. Next time raid at 5am with a riot squad.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-09-24/police-name-man-shot-dead-outside-melbourne-police-station/5765364

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-09-24/what-we-know-about-abdul-numan-haider/5767044

Meanwhile, after threats to behead the PM, security at Parliament House has been beefed up.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-09-24/armed-police-on-standby-inside-parliament-house/5766628
 

The Victorian police have always been quick on the trigger.

This has led to Victorians adopting a rather unique style of formal attire.

4483116500_1de6d9117c_z.jpg
 

Returning to topic, and being serious for a minute, the man shot dead by police seemed to have the PM in his sights. He had been researching Tony Abbott's travel plans, specifically when he would be coming to Melbourne. Fortunately he seems to have been totally inept and quite unable to organise his way out of a paper bag. I hardly think that he was part of any organised group.

All credit to the authorities for keeping him under surveillance but bad luck for the two policemen taken by surprise.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-09-24/man-shot-dead-researched-tony-abbott-travel-plans/5767226
 
Some still wonder why the guy going thru the front door of the White House didn't suffer the same fate...
 
Some kids rebel with a tatoo or body piercing, listen to loud music, come home late, flunk school but now we have to add 'join ISIS' to the list. This looks like a kid screaming for attention. Sad, pathetic and the new norm.

Also saw a side article on Australia's new anti terrorism laws. New laws or excessive use of existing laws in the name of fighting terrorism is a slippery slope in any country.
 
Attempted double beheading in Melbourne

Sorry but thats is very misleading statement to the people of Melbourne,FLORIDA (population is 76,609)The only ones that lose there heads around here are the fishes caught off Melbourne beach.
But I love ya anyways.:D
 
WhatInThe said:
Some kids rebel with a tatoo or body piercing, listen to loud music, come home late, flunk school but now we have to add 'join ISIS' to the list. This looks like a kid screaming for attention. Sad, pathetic and the new norm.

Also saw a side article on Australia's new anti terrorism laws. New laws or excessive use of existing laws in the name of fighting terrorism is a slippery slope in any country.
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They have already been forced by the Opposition to explicitly forbid torture in the new draft.

As for the 'kid', as far as I know most teenage rebellion does not stretch as far as attempting to murder people. The exception would be criminal gangs, which ISIS undoubtedly is.

It is sad and pathetic but the policeman had no choice other than to shoot him dead. As everyone knows, I'm opposed to guns as a general rule, but not when used with justification. He had been slashed on his arm and his partner was in the process of being savagely stabbed multiple times. Evidence points to this being a premeditated action, not some spontaneous burst of teenage madness. I'm so glad the two policemen survived.
 
Dame Warrigal said:
They have already been forced by the Opposition to explicitly forbid torture in the new draft.

As for the 'kid', as far as I know most teenage rebellion does not stretch as far as attempting to murder people. The exception would be criminal gangs, which ISIS undoubtedly is.

It is sad and pathetic but the policeman had no choice other than to shoot him dead. As everyone knows, I'm opposed to guns as a general rule, but not when used with justification. He had been slashed on his arm and his partner was in the process of being savagely stabbed multiple times. Evidence points to this being a premeditated action, not some spontaneous burst of teenage madness. I'm so glad the two policemen survived.
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I accept the police had to shoot him in self defense, no problem there. But to see "young" people joining ISIS is the most troubling. Again it's one thing to rebel but it's another to sign up to basically become a serial killer and not a military soldier. You had the rapper from England as well. How can a person who loves music love or want to kill. In the US I get some of the ex Somalians wanting to enlist from the US but a teenager in a free countrywanting to give it all up for what again? But I guess if you are going to a police station for your first kill I guess it's more than a passing fad.
 
Davey Jones said:
Attempted double beheading in Melbourne

Sorry but thats is very misleading statement to the people of Melbourne,FLORIDA (population is 76,609)The only ones that lose there heads around here are the fishes caught off Melbourne beach.
But I love ya anyways.:D
Click to expand...

Don't get me started on our lovely state, remember it was here where those loons flying the planes into the twin towers, took their flight training. Florida really should be allowed to secede, I'll miss the warm temps and the beaches, but, I'm not sure I'd really feel all that bad. I'm certain we've likely had double beheadings, we've had more than enough bodies found disposed of for in the past weeks.
 
WhatInThe said:
Some kids rebel with a tatoo or body piercing, listen to loud music, come home late, flunk school but now we have to add 'join ISIS' to the list. This looks like a kid screaming for attention. Sad, pathetic and the new norm.

Also saw a side article on Australia's new anti terrorism laws. New laws or excessive use of existing laws in the name of fighting terrorism is a slippery slope in any country.
Click to expand...

Sorry, but these "kids" as you call them can kill people. Remember Boston, MA. where a Muslim militant teenager and his older brother left pressure cooker bombs at the finish line of the Boston Marathon race a couple of years ago killing several and permanently maiming dozens including young children.

I was a rebel mixed up teenager myself so I do empathize with the difficulties of being that age, but when kids want to join militant organizations and want to behead strangers, it's time to use force first and rehabilitate later.

Public safety is the priority here.
 
WhatInThe said:
I accept the police had to shoot him in self defence, no problem there. But to see "young" people joining ISIS is the most troubling. Again it's one thing to rebel but it's another to sign up to basically become a serial killer and not a military soldier. You had the rapper from England as well. How can a person who loves music love or want to kill. In the US I get some of the ex Somalians wanting to enlist from the US but a teenager in a free country wanting to give it all up for what again? But I guess if you are going to a police station for your first kill I guess it's more than a passing fad.
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I think these young ones, born in Australia, have no idea how free and well off they actually are. They do not appreciate how much government assistance they have received from the Australian taxpayers because they have nothing to compare it to. Their parents do, and are not very disturbed by the periodic racism that they encounter. They know that it is not institutionalised but the young ones believe the rhetoric that says they are a suppressed minority. They interpret every setback and personal failure as discrimination.

Everything is black and white to that age group. Young Christians, young atheists can exhibit the same black and white, often hostile thinking but few decide to murder. The root of the problem lies in the Koran itself. As long as Islam insists that every verse in the Koran is directly from God then the verses that command the killing of infidels will not only continue to be used to legitimise murder, they will be used to inspire jihad as holy violence.
 
I can't vouch for this site. I don't know who or what is behind it but what I've read on it does seem to be a reasonable and detached assessment of Koranic verses of violence. It does seem to fit the attitude and behaviours we are seeing in the ME and at home.

A sample:

The Quran:
Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief] is worse than killing...
but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)" (Translation is from the Noble Quran) The historical context of this passage is not defensive warfare, since Muhammad and his Muslims had just relocated to Medina and were not under attack by their Meccan adversaries. In fact, the verses urge offensive warfare, in that Muslims are to drive Meccans out of their own city (which they later did). The use of the word "persecution" by some Muslim translators is thus disingenuous (the actual Muslim words for persecution - "idtihad" - and oppression - a variation of "z-l-m" - do not appear in the verse). The actual Arabic comes from "fitna" which can mean disbelief, or the disorder that results from unbelief or temptation. Taken as a whole, the context makes clear that violence is being authorized until "religion is for Allah" - ie. unbelievers desist in their unbelief.

Quran (2:244) - "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."

Quran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not." Not only does this verse establish that violence can be virtuous, but it also contradicts the myth that fighting is intended only in self-defense, since the audience was obviously not under attack at the time. From the Hadith, we know that this verse was narrated at a time that Muhammad was actually trying to motivate his people into raiding merchant caravans for loot.

Quran (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."

Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority". This speaks directly of polytheists, yet it also includes Christians, since they believe in the Trinity (ie. what Muhammad incorrectly believed to be 'joining companions to Allah').

Quran (4:74) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward." The martyrs of Islam are unlike the early Christians, who were led meekly to the slaughter. These Muslims are killed in battle as they attempt to inflict death and destruction for the cause of Allah. This is the theological basis for today's suicide bombers.

Quran (4:76) - "Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah…"

Quran (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."

Quran (4:95) - "Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward,-" This passage criticizes "peaceful" Muslims who do not join in the violence, letting them know that they are less worthy in Allah's eyes. It also demolishes the modern myth that "Jihad" doesn't mean holy war in the Quran, but rather a spiritual struggle. Not only is the Arabic word used in this passage, but it is clearly not referring to anything spiritual, since the physically disabled are given exemption. (The Hadith reveals the context of the passage to be in response to a blind man's protest that he is unable to engage in Jihad and this is reflected in other translations of the verse).

More here: http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/023-violence.htm
 
I'm very glad they shot that terrorist. Part of what makes these guys so scary is that they don't care if they get killed, many even welcome it -- they think dying in trying to exterminate us "infidels" guarantees them some kind of martyr's special place in the Islamic afterlife. They aren't put off by resistance and it seems the only way to stop them is to kill them.

I fear we will be seeing more of this, and I hope it is met with appropriate deadly force. I can't understand why our own teenagers and young men get caught up in the idea of "glorious" jihad. What a flippin' stupid way to waste your life.
 
But what about those seventy-two virgins waiting for them on the other side? Wouldn't just a few do on this side if they could be found?
 
I'm ignoring your nonsense Ralphy and taking your question at face value.

All religions over time develop accretions that periodically need to be removed. That's what the Christian Reformation did. It directed people back to the original texts and away from teachings about indulgences and other mis-teachings. There doesn't seem to be any mention of virgins waiting for martyrs in the Koran itself but I couldn't say that they don't appear in the Kaddith. It does talk about admission to Paradise for those who die and a special reward or booty (no, not that kind of booty) for those that survive and a vast reward either way.

Islam is well overdue for a Reformation IMO. Where is the Islamic version of Martin Luther?
 
Hmm, well the problem is that nobody knows for sure. And I suppose it depends on what age you are when you go, for me it would be an endless supply of Beefeater (love those botanicals)...
 
[h=2]Each major religion has violence. Here's some from the Bible

10. 2 Kings 2:23-24[/h]He [Elisha] went up from there to Bethel; and while he was going up on the way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him, saying, “Go away, baldhead! Go away, baldhead!” When he turned around and saw them, he cursed them in the name of the LORD. Then two she-bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the boys. (NRSV)


[h=2]9. Exodus 32:27-29[/h]Then he said to them, "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: 'Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.' "The Levites did as Moses commanded, and that day about three thousand of the people died. Then Moses said, "You have been set apart to the LORD today, for you were against your own sons and brothers, and he has blessed you this day."(NIV)


[h=2]8. 2 Chronicles 25:12[/h]The sons of Judah also captured 10,000 alive and brought them to the top of the cliff and threw them down from the top of the cliff, so that they were all dashed to pieces.(NASB)


[h=2]7. Judges 12:5-6[/h]Then the Gileadites took the fords of the Jordan against the Ephraimites. Whenever one of the fugitives of Ephraim said, “Let me go over,” the men of Gilead would say to him, “Are you an Ephraimite?” When he said, “No” they said to him, “Then say Shibboleth” and he said, “Sibboleth,” for he could not pronounce it right. Then they seized him and killed him at the fords of the Jordan. Forty-two thousand of the Ephraimites fell at that time. (NRSV)


[h=2]6. 1 Kings 20:28-30[/h]Then a man of God came and spoke to the king of Israel, and said, “Thus says the LORD: 'Because the Syrians have said, “The LORD is God of the hills, but He is not God of the valleys,” therefore I will deliver all this great multitude into your hand, and you shall know that I am the LORD.’” And they encamped opposite each other for seven days.
So it was that on the seventh day the battle was joined; and the children of Israel killed one hundred thousand foot soldiers of the Syrians in one day. But the rest fled to Aphek, into the city; then a wall fell on twenty-seven thousand of the men who were left. (NKJV)


[h=2]5. Joshua 8:24-26[/h]When the Israelite army finished chasing and killing all the men of Ai in the open fields, they went back and finished off everyone inside. So the entire population of Ai, including men and women, was wiped out that day—12,000 in all. For Joshua kept holding out his spear until everyone who had lived in Ai was completely destroyed. (NLT)


[h=2]4. Deuteronomy 2:32-34[/h]Then Sihon came out against us, he and all his people, unto battle at Jahaz. And Jehovah our God delivered him up before us; and we smote him, and his sons, and all his people. And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed every inhabited city, with the women and the little ones; we left none remaining. (ASV)


[h=2]3. Deuteronomy 3:3-6[/h]So the LORD our God delivered Og also, king of Bashan, with all his people into our hand, and we smote them until no survivor was left. We captured all his cities at that time; there was not a city which we did not take from them: sixty cities, all the region of Argob, the kingdom of Og in Bashan. All these were cities fortified with high walls, gates and bars, besides a great many unwalled towns. We utterly destroyed them, as we did to Sihon king of Heshbon, utterly destroying the men, women and children of every city. (NASB)


[h=2]2. 1 Samuel 15:3,8[/h]Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.' " … He took Agag king of the Amalekites alive, and all his people he totally destroyed with the sword.(NIV)


[h=2]1. Hosea 13:16[/h]Samaria shall bear her guilt, because she has rebelled against her God; they shall fall by the sword, their little ones shall be dashed in pieces, and their pregnant women ripped open. (NRSV)

http://www.christianitydisproved.com/bible/violent-bible-verses.html
 
I'm not arguing that there is a good deal of violence in the Judeo-Christian Scriptures but there one important difference between these verses and the Koranic texts of violence. They are set in an historical context which means that they do not have the power to command modern day followers to do the same.

For example the Samuel 15 passage when taken in context is a lot different in meaning to the two verses quoted above

[h=3]The Lord Rejects Saul as King[/h]15 Samuel said to Saul, “I am the one the Lord sent to anoint you king over his people Israel; so listen now to the message from the Lord. [SUP]2 [/SUP]This is what the Lord Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy[SUP][a][/SUP] all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”
[SUP]4 [/SUP]So Saul summoned the men and mustered them at Telaim—two hundred thousand foot soldiers and ten thousand from Judah. [SUP]5 [/SUP]Saul went to the city of Amalek and set an ambush in the ravine. [SUP]6 [/SUP]Then he said to the Kenites, “Go away, leave the Amalekites so that I do not destroy you along with them; for you showed kindness to all the Israelites when they came up out of Egypt.” So the Kenites moved away from the Amalekites.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Then Saul attacked the Amalekites all the way from Havilah to Shur, near the eastern border of Egypt. [SUP]8 [/SUP]He took Agag king of the Amalekites alive, and all his people he totally destroyed with the sword. [SUP]9 [/SUP]But Saul and the army spared Agag and the best of the sheep and cattle, the fat calves[SUP][b][/SUP] and lambs—everything that was good. These they were unwilling to destroy completely, but everything that was despised and weak they totally destroyed.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Then the word of the Lord came to Samuel: [SUP]11 [/SUP]“I regret that I have made Saul king, because he has turned away from me and has not carried out my instructions.” Samuel was angry, and he cried out to the Lord all that night.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Early in the morning Samuel got up and went to meet Saul, but he was told, “Saul has gone to Carmel. There he has set up a monument in his own honor and has turned and gone on down to Gilgal.”
[SUP]13 [/SUP]When Samuel reached him, Saul said, “The Lord bless you! I have carried out the Lord’s instructions.”
[SUP]14 [/SUP]But Samuel said, “What then is this bleating of sheep in my ears? What is this lowing of cattle that I hear?”
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Saul answered, “The soldiers brought them from the Amalekites; they spared the best of the sheep and cattle to sacrifice to the Lord your God, but we totally destroyed the rest.”
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Whether accurate or not, it is an account of Hebrew history, not an instruction to present day Jews or Christians. Looking around on the site I linked to previously these is an essay on this subject but I'm not sure about the objectivity of the writing. It does make the same point that I have made here. I don't know enough about the Koran myself, but from what I have read in English translation, there are no stories like the ones we read in the Old and New Testaments, just a lot of instructions and statements similar to Leviticus and Proverbs. They have very little context as far as I can tell.
 
I'm wondering though.. Just like most Christians do NOT take the violent parts of the Bible literally.. Do most Muslims adhere to the violence in the Koran? We hear that only the very radical extremists do.. but I have to admit.. there sure are a lot of extremists. I know we have the West Burrow Baptist Church and some others, but it DOES seem more widespread in Islam.
 

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