Australia to ban vaping.

Capt Lightning said:
I read in the news today that Australia was planning to ban 'vaping'. I sounds as if Australia is not only becoming a very authoritarian country, but may be encouraging 'black market' tobacco goods. Maybe, like the prohibition era in America, you will see "Smoke easy" joints springing up.
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No... really ?... the Ozzies?.. can't see that working..
 
Rather than ban vaping maybe make it illegal to vape intoxicating substances so if someone is caught with a vape pen with pot let's say that would be the offense not the vape paraphernalia.
 

The ban is to protect Australian youth from predatory practices being used by importers of vape products that make a special appeal to youth such as, packaging graphics, vape juice names that sound like it's candy or sweets and general targeting of marketing practices toward the youth market. Australia has also been the world's most aggressive opponent of tobacco products for years, taxing those products out of reach for many people.

I for one applaud them for their serious stand on both tobacco and now vape products! I wish more countries would follow their lead. These measures won't stop smoking/vaping and they will fan the flames of black market products as well but the more road blocks that are put up in front of people, the more people may finally throw in the towel on both smoking & vaping.
 
How will that work? Are cigarettes still legal in Australia? If so could this lead to more smoking, do more harm than good? Will it lead to lawless vape cartels, like the drug cartels? How well has all this been thought out?

I don't like either cigarettes or vaping and wish no one would do either. However we have a pretty poor track record in legally keeping people away from things that do them harm.

Australia to ban recreational vaping in major public health move
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-65446352
 
Alligatorob said:
How will that work? Are cigarettes still legal in Australia? If so could this lead to more smoking, do more harm than good? Will it lead to lawless vape cartels, like the drug cartels? How well has all this been thought out?

I don't like either cigarettes or vaping and wish no one would do either. However we have a pretty poor track record in legally keeping people away from things that do them harm.

Australia to ban recreational vaping in major public health move
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-65446352
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I agree.. I don't smoke cigarettes or Vape.. but Vaping is a far cleaner habit than smoking tobacco.. .. and at the end of the day, they can ban things all they like people will still find a way to do it...
 
Problem with todays/drug culture in the US is that continuous search for the ultimate high or replicating their first good high hence all the pill popping or mixing of drugs. Heck college age kids already had issue mixing alcohol and energy drinks. Youth in particular will find a way as will older junkies seeking a substitute.

I find alcohol marketing or manufacturing just as disturbing in the US with fruity and/or flavored drinks which means the drinker is more likely to forget they are consuming alcohol.

It's sad that a culture/sub culture puts so much emphasis on chemical intoxication alcohol included. Use of chemicals including alcohol used for celebration or a time out. Some how it went from true recreational use to daily use like it's a necessity.

The battle is the desire for chemical intoxication not the individual chemicals.
 
WhatInThe said:
Problem with todays/drug culture in the US is that continuous search for the ultimate high or replicating their first good high hence all the pill popping or mixing of drugs. Heck college age kids already had issue mixing alcohol and energy drinks. Youth in particular will find a way as will older junkies seeking a substitute.

I find alcohol marketing or manufacturing just as disturbing in the US with fruity and/or flavored drinks which means the drinker is more likely to forget they are consuming alcohol.

It's sad that a culture/sub culture puts so much emphasis on chemical intoxication alcohol included. Use of chemicals including alcohol used for celebration or a time out. Some how it went from true recreational use to daily use like it's a necessity.

The battle is the desire for chemical intoxication not the individual chemicals.
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Actually alcohol consumption is way down from what it was in the early 1800s, and that was a time when other drugs like opium were legal and widely used. We are a more sober society today than we once were. Not that it isn't a problem, just not a new one.

We have tried lots of things to limit substance abuse, none very successful. Outlawing the substances seems like a simple answer but many years of trying has shown it doesn't work.
historic-alcohol-consumption.jpg
https://inthespiritofthelaw.com/2020/05/06/the-drunkest-time-in-america/

The problem of substance abuse goes back thousands of years. Only the drugs, some of them, are new.

The evolutionary origins and significance of drug addiction
https://harmreductionjournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1477-7517-2-8
 
In the end until the addict really wants to quit for themselves and not to appease anyone else including a court they won't. Same could be said until enough teens simply chose not to even experiment with things like vaping it will be an issue in their age group.

The youth need to educated starting as young as possible, high school, home, college and job orientation especially that involves physical work or big responsibilities. More PSAs are needed as well but it's tougher with cable tv and internet because one can ignore the advertising.
 
Capt Lightning said:
I read in the news today that Australia was planning to ban 'vaping'. I sounds as if Australia is not only becoming a very authoritarian country, but may be encouraging 'black market' tobacco goods. Maybe, like the prohibition era in America, you will see "Smoke easy" joints springing up.
Click to expand...
I think they have left it too late. You can see young kids puffing away behind school bus stops and my grandson said the boys do it in the toilets. There is a tobacco shop near my house, and I'm told they sell unmarked packets of cigarettes for $40.00 and regular packets $54.00 God only knows what's in the Chinese varieties.
 
MrPants said:
The ban is to protect Australian youth from predatory practices being used by importers of vape products that make a special appeal to youth such as, packaging graphics, vape juice names that sound like it's candy or sweets and general targeting of marketing practices toward the youth market. Australia has also been the world's most aggressive opponent of tobacco products for years, taxing those products out of reach for many people.

I for one applaud them for their serious stand on both tobacco and now vape products! I wish more countries would follow their lead. These measures won't stop smoking/vaping and they will fan the flames of black market products as well but the more road blocks that are put up in front of people, the more people may finally throw in the towel on both smoking & vaping.
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That's correct Mr Pants.

Initially vapes were allowed because the argument was put that they would reduce the number of people addicted to cigarettes (nicotine). Plain packaging of cigarettes, bans on advertising tobacco products at movie theatres and sporting venues had already been effective in reducing the numbers of young people taking up smoking. Older smokers who were well addicted continued to smoke. Vaping was often suggested by their physicians as a means of withdrawing from their habit.

My sister in law was one of these but she only switched to vaping after one third of one lung was removed because of cancer. By then her heart was also affected. She died yesterday from heart failure.

The manufacturers and sellers of vapes broke the social contract they made with Australians by targeting young people, including kids under 15. Just like alcopops they were flavoured to appeal to school children and they contain nicotine. Since their appearance smoking rates have actually increased. It is a short distance from vaping in the school playground to taking up smoking.

Vapes containing nicotine will still be available with a doctor's script but their availability to non smokers will be quite restricted. The problem is that there is a thriving black market in addictive vapes.

Posted Fri 24 Feb 2023

Under the current rules, nicotine vapes should be pretty hard to access. They are only available in Australia to adults with a prescription, issued for the purpose of helping a patient quit smoking. And they are only allowed to be sold in pharmacies, not in convenience stores, supermarkets or service stations like cigarettes.

Those buying them with a prescription also have the option of importing them from overseas, so long as they meet certain TGA standards, and can buy up to three months of supplies at a time. In its consultation paper looking at potential changes to vaping rules, the TGA acknowledges the current restrictions are not really doing their job.

"Evidence is emerging that the reforms are not meeting these aims. Children and adolescents are continuing to obtain [nicotine vapes] in higher numbers," it said.

It suggests the black market for nicotine vapes in Australia is, in practice, the "dominant market". That might be nicotine vapes that are imported legally with a prescription, and then on-sold person-to-person. Or it might be walking into a convenience store and buying a vape that isn't supposed to contain nicotine, but is in fact packing plenty of it.

Numerous studies have found non-nicotine vapes, which are legal in most states and territories for people over 18, in many (or even most) cases turn out to have nicotine in them.

Australia has a vaping problem, but no easy health or political solution - ABC News
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@Warrigal , so sorry to hear of the loss of your sister-in-law.. may she R.I.P

As for vaping being a short jump to actual smoking.. maybe but I don't think that it would happen here. With Vaping they get all the nictoine they are missing from Cigarettes,. without the Tar... , and if anyone wanted to go from Vaping to smoking.. then they would find it far too expensive to do so for the most part.

Vaping has cut cigarette smoking in this country by a huge percentage.. most.. not all.. but most people cannot afford to smoke cigarettes any more.. and so changed to Vaping for that reason.. another large percentage used it to wean themselves off cigarettes..

A pack of cigarettes now is the same price as it once was for a whole carton..in the UK... and my husband who vapes pays substantially less for his vaping equipment but from a reputable company, I'm told that people can buy vaping liquid from the pound store...
 
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charry said:
It’s worse than normal cigarettes for peoples health
when near someone who is vaping You get suffocated with smoke yuk
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Yep, it's all pretty obnoxious... though some people who smoke and vape are better about distancing and respecting than others.

I'd like to see it all end too, just skeptical that we can make it happen...

I am lucky, I never smoked, except for the very occasional cigar. But lots of my friends and family have or do. Most would like to stop, but can't. I know how hard stopping is.
 
Alligatorob said:
Yep, it's all pretty obnoxious... though some people who smoke and vape are better about distancing and respecting than others.

I'd like to see it all end too, just skeptical that we can make it happen...

I am lucky, I never smoked, except for the very occasional cigar. But lots of my friends and family have or do. Most would like to stop, but can't. I know how hard stopping is.
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Yes I agree , smoking is very addictive and hard to give up
Most of my family smoked in the early days including me
I gave up 38 yrs ago with my mum !!
And yes it was hard but so glad I gave up !!!!
 
Warrigal said:
That's correct Mr Pants.

Initially vapes were allowed because the argument was put that they would reduce the number of people addicted to cigarettes (nicotine). Plain packaging of cigarettes, bans on advertising tobacco products at movie theatres and sporting venues had already been effective in reducing the numbers of young people taking up smoking. Older smokers who were well addicted continued to smoke. Vaping was often suggested by their physicians as a means of withdrawing from their habit.

My sister in law was one of these but she only switched to vaping after one third of one lung was removed because of cancer. By then her heart was also affected. She died yesterday from heart failure.

The manufacturers and sellers of vapes broke the social contract they made with Australians by targeting young people, including kids under 15. Just like alcopops they were flavoured to appeal to school children and they contain nicotine. Since their appearance smoking rates have actually increased. It is a short distance from vaping in the school playground to taking up smoking.

Vapes containing nicotine will still be available with a doctor's script but their availability to non smokers will be quite restricted. The problem is that there is a thriving black market in addictive vapes.
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Condolences to you on the death of your sister @Warrigal :cry:

Can't think of any other product (Tobacco) that is commercially marketed & sold that has and continues to kill more people worldwide. Not even alcohol kills in the same numbers. It's shocking that so many governments continue to put tax revenue above human life :mad:
 
MrPants said:
Condolences to you on the death of your sister @Warrigal :cry:

Can't think of any other product (Tobacco) that is commercially marketed & sold that has and continues to kill more people worldwide. Not even alcohol kills in the same numbers. It's shocking that so many governments continue to put tax revenue above human life :mad:
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Thanks MrPants but it was my husband's sister, not mine. My sister, however was also a smoker and drinker and only recently has she quit smoking. Alcohol has pretty much ravaged her gut. Alcohol is socially destructive and fuels domestic violence.

It is harder to break a nicotine habit than it is to recover from alcoholism. The two often go together and I have known people who had been advised to quit smoking who had to give up drinking at the same time. Alcohol weakens the resolve and after a drink or two it is hard for a smoker to resist the urge to light up.
 
Ancient Egyptian mummies have been determined to have significant amounts of opioids in them. So, our love of drugs is age old. That said, if the OZ government decides that certain vaping substances are unacceptable, as Murrmurr said, regulate the makers. Banning vaping altogether gives it that anti-establishment quality-exactly what cantankerous, rebellious teens crave.
 
fuzzybuddy said:
Ancient Egyptian mummies have been determined to have significant amounts of opioids in them. So, our love of drugs is age old.
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Much older than the Egyptians, this is a quote from the article I posted above:

A common belief is that psychotropic plant chemicals evolved recurrently throughout evolutionary history. Archaeological records indicate the presence of psychotropic plants and drug use in ancient civilizations as far back as early hominid species about 200 million years ago. Roughly 13,000 years ago, the inhabitants of Timor commonly used betel nut (Areca catechu), as did those in Thailand around 10,700 years ago. At the beginning of European colonialism, and perhaps for 40,000 years before that, Australian aborigines used nicotine from two different indigenous sources: pituri plant (Duboisia hopwoodii) and Nicotiana gossel. North and South Americans also used nicotine from their indigenous plants N. tabacum and N. rustica. Ethiopians and northern Africans were documented as having used an ephedrine-analog, khat (Catha edulis), before European colonization. Cocaine (Erythroxylum coca) was taken by Ecuadorians about 5,000 years ago and by the indigenous people of the western Andes almost 7,000 years ago. The substances were popularly administered through the buccal cavity within the cheek. Nicotine, cocaine, and ephedrine sources were first mixed with an alkali substance, most often wood or lime ash, creating a free base to facilitate diffusion of the drug into the blood stream. Alkali paraphernalia have been found throughout these regions and documented within the archaeological record. Although the buccal method is believed to be most standard method of drug administration, inhabitants of the Americas may have also administered substances nasally, rectally, and by smoking.

https://harmreductionjournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1477-7517-2-8
 
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