Beavers are a nuisance

Tie that trap down, Rkunsaw. You don't want to be scouting for it all over the countryside in this kind of weather and those traps aren't cheap! You're lucky to get two so far, I've heard they are hard to trap.

Oh, and beaver tails are supposed to be good eatin'. You might want to check out a recipe online.
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... and then one chilly December morning they all woke up and, checking their morning papers, saw the headline:

BEAVER EXTINCTION LEADS TO MASSIVE FLOODING

... and there was much weeping and gnashing of teeth. If only they had known, they all cried ... if only someone had told us ...
 
Truth is Phil beavers are the cause of a lot of flooding. They get so bad at times that the county offers a bounty for killing beavers. Unfortunately there is no bounty around here at the moment. The last time they had one they paid $10 per beaver.

I've never tried eating beaver. Those caught in the trap are cold and stiff by the morning when I check the traps.
 
Truth is Phil beavers are the cause of a lot of flooding. They get so bad at times that the county offers a bounty for killing beavers. Unfortunately there is no bounty around here at the moment. The last time they had one they paid $10 per beaver.

I've never tried eating beaver. Those caught in the trap are cold and stiff by the morning when I check the traps.

I'm sure they DO cause a lot of flooding, but somehow I just can't get over the simple fact that they were here a long, long time before we were, and there were no problems.

Why are we killing beavers? Why is there on a bounty on their heads? Not because they're inherently evil or bad; simply because they inconvenience US. It's the same with many extinct animals that were hunted to extinction: it was either because they possessed something that was desirable (pelt, tusks, etc.) or because they posed a threat to our comfort.

Eliminating an entire species, no matter the reason, is wrong. We don't have that kind of power over life and death, although we think we do.

All I'm saying is that killing animals wholesale always has a price. It just isn't always an easily-seen one.
 
Yabut Phil, the lake on my property is man made so it is not part of the beavers natural habitat. In this case man was here before the beavers were.

Think about it. Every house, every city in the world is on land once populated by animals. Should we let it all go back to nature? Us humans are part of this world too and we also have our place in nature.
 
Yabut Phil, the lake on my property is man made so it is not part of the beavers natural habitat. In this case man was here before the beavers were.

Did you see what you said? "MY property"? Because you paid for it? You know what a traditional Native American would have to say about that, right?

Man was not there before the beavers; Man simply took the land and changed it, then complained when the beavers came by.

Think about it. Every house, every city in the world is on land once populated by animals. Should we let it all go back to nature? Us humans are part of this world too and we also have our place in nature.

Yes, we do have our place in nature - co-existence.

That doesn't include ecocide.
 
Man was not there before the beavers

I'll take your word for that.

But I do know there were no beavers on this property before there was water. And yes I did pay for MY property. That is how humans get land these days. Other animals have other means of taking over property.
 
I'll take your word for that.

Well, put it this way: which came first, the beaver or the Man? I mean, in the evolutionary sense ...

But I do know there were no beavers on this property before there was water.

Right. They came because Man created the lake. You can't blame them for that - it's an instinctive thing.

But killing them because they're attracted to something you created - something you knew would bring them - smacks of setting up a kill-zone.


And yes I did pay for MY property. That is how humans get land these days. Other animals have other means of taking over property.

I'm afraid you missed my point, probably because I didn't make it clear enough. :eek:

We are merely stewards of the land - how can we "own" it?

It was there long before we came along - pretty presumptuous of us to assume we can "own" something like that, isn't it?

It will be there long after we are gone - do we still "own" it then? Sure, we can will it to our kids and their kids and their kids ... but it isn't owned. It might "remain in the family" for generations, but we still don't get to say we "own" it.

Yes, legally we can say "This is mine", but that isn't what I'm talking about. I'm talking Big Picture here. That's why artificial boundaries such as those that enclose countries are so much trouble, cause so much war - because we think "Hey, we want to own the land THOSE guys own!", so we crank up the war machine.

Without the concept of land ownershhip we would greatly reduce the occurrence - and the need - for war. We wouldn't need passports, we wouldn't need visas, there would be no boundaries save those that Nature put there.
 
Something that just came to mind that illustrates the illogical and comical lengths that the concept of land ownership can achieve ...

There's a movie named Door to Door which tells the story of Bill Porter, a door-to-door salesman for the Watkins company. During his sales calls he comes upon 2 neighbors, one of whom has a beautiful, big old tree in their yard, and half of its branches are hanging over the neighbor's yard.

When the neighbors get into a silly argument, half of the tree is trimmed. For years afterward the tree is only half a tree.

Because of a stupid argument over land boundaries.
 

Why are we killing beavers? Why is there on a bounty on their heads? Not because they're inherently evil or bad; simply because they inconvenience US.

Phil, as I've explained, beavers damage timber and cause massive flooding in areas that are not their natural habitat. Just because there happens to be water and timber where they decide to inhabit does not mean they belong there. Much as a rat does not belong in someone's home, but has moved in for the convenience of easy living.

Beavers are native to wetlands habitats, where their presence is very much an important and appreciated part of the eco system. They are not appreciated in a human developed habitat where they can cause thousands of dollars worth of damage in a short time, putting peoples lives, property and financial investments of crops and timber in jeopardy. No one is killing them when they move into a human habitat, because they are an "inconvenience", but rather because the human environment is at risk.

In our case we live right on a creek, and the banks depend on tree roots and native plants and free flowing water, that is not dammed up to hold the banks together,. If we allowed beavers to keep multiplying and to chew down the trees and build dams to overflow the banks, soon the banks would be eroded, and our home and property would be flooded. This is not a mere whim of wanting to kill animals, but a matter of survival in our home.

The argument that beavers were here first does not hold any credence with me, since all kinds of animals were everywhere before development pushed them out. If we were to abide by this argument, this country would still be undeveloped.

As it is now, development has pushed much wildlife to the fringes of and in some cases into human habitat. They are now losing fear of people and starting to come into the neighborhoods and cities. Wild turkeys are causing problems in Long Island with traffic, landscaping and aggressiveness. Coyotes and bob cats are terrorizing my friend's long developed neighborhood in Texas feasting on pets. Moose are roaming the streets of Montana, mountain lions are attacking people in neighborhoods in Southern Cal, coyotes and wild hogs are coming into neighborhoods in New Orleans, bears are raiding dumpsters in Colorado. Do we allow them to stay...where is the line to be drawn in the argument that they were there first?

BEAVER EXTINCTION LEADS TO MASSIVE FLOODING

No one is advocating beaver extinction. Beavers were once all but extinct, thanks to the fur trappers in the late 1800's who were furnishing beaver pelts to the fashion trade of wealthy city people. By the time beaver fur coats and hats fell out of fashion, beavers were all but extinct. They were totally extinct in Arkansas, but were re-introduced in the min 1900's and are now thriving.
They are prolific breeders and are now firmly established in their natural wetlands habitat throughout most of the United States and Canada.

Even if beavers were totally annihilated tomorrow, I doubt that mass flooding on a grand scale would occur because if man made flood control measures can't control it, a beaver dam just isn't going to cut it. In my small scale case, a beaver dam will cause it.



I'm sure they DO cause a lot of flooding, but somehow I just can't get over the simple fact that they were here a long, long time before we were, and there were no problems.

Of course there were no problems with them before the continent became inhabited, don't get this logic. All animals had free roam then, but progress, if that's what you want to call it took precedence over animals.


Eliminating an entire species, no matter the reason, is wrong. We don't have that kind of power over life and death, although we think we do
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You've mentioned twice about eliminating beavers. Beavers are not endangered animals, and who is advocating eliminating the entire species? Don't be overly dramatic.

Yes, like it or not, humans do have power over life or death when it comes to animals, and even their own species. If you are speaking of some esoteric power or philosophy, sorry, but I deal in the here now, not the ethereal hereafter .

Thankfully, most of us understand the powerful role that animals play on earth and humans have taken measures to preserve endangered species, from the smallest bug to the largest mammal.

I can't speak for Rkunsaw, but I take exception to the statements regarding elimination of a species if it is directed toward me because of what I believe. I have the right, and will exercise that right in protecting my home, habitat if you will, from any destructive force of nature, and that includes beast or human. On the other side of the coin, I will not harm an animal that merely causes me "inconvenience" , such as the 13 raccoons that I spent considerable time and effort relocating this spring.

So far in another thread, you have accused me of selling my soul to live rurally, because I shop at Walmart, and now from what I can ascertain, because I would kill a beaver to protect my property, I guess I'm to be included with whomever or whatever group you think is on a mission of total annihilation of the beaver population.

Man, I'm beginning to suck! I'll have to join the PC crowd and cry assault on my eroded self esteem.

Of course, you are entitled to your opinions and arguments, that you express so much more eloquently by written word than I, but I say don't judge until you have lived amongst them.
 
Right. They came because Man created the lake. You can't blame them for that - it's an instinctive thing.

So you're saying if a mouse came into your house ( the environment you created) you wouldn't set a trap. Or have you trapped a mouse before? I;ll bet you have. Are you trying to eliminate mice from the world? How cruel.:pfff:
 
The argument that beavers were here first does not hold any credence with me, since all kinds of animals were everywhere before development pushed them out. If we were to abide by this argument, this country would still be undeveloped.

And I believe that this country could have developed without the wholesale slaughter of bison, passenger pigeons, the monk seal, the Carolina parakeet ... and that's just the U.S.

To hunt a species to extinction is, as Mr. Spock said, illogical.

Those extinctions didn't come about because of the animals invading our domain - they came about because of the greedy nature of Man.

As it is now, development has pushed much wildlife to the fringes of and in some cases into human habitat. They are now losing fear of people and starting to come into the neighborhoods and cities. Wild turkeys are causing problems in Long Island with traffic, landscaping and aggressiveness. Coyotes and bob cats are terrorizing my friend's long developed neighborhood in Texas feasting on pets. Moose are roaming the streets of Montana, mountain lions are attacking people in neighborhoods in Southern Cal, coyotes and wild hogs are coming into neighborhoods in New Orleans, bears are raiding dumpsters in Colorado. Do we allow them to stay...where is the line to be drawn in the argument that they were there first?

Could the problem be that Man has spread out over far too much territory?

No one is advocating beaver extinction.


That's good to know, but then "no one" advocated the extinction of the above-mentioned animals, either.

"It just happened". Oops.

Even if beavers were totally annihilated tomorrow, I doubt that mass flooding on a grand scale would occur because if man made flood control measures can't control it, a beaver dam just isn't going to cut it. In my small scale case, a beaver dam will cause it.

Please forgive me my somewhat inflated writings - I find that sometimes such techniques bring about conversations such as this.

Of course there were no problems with them before the continent became inhabited, don't get this logic. All animals had free roam then, but progress, if that's what you want to call it took precedence over animals.
There you go - that's one of my dislikes, putting so-called progress in front of living creatures.
You've mentioned twice about eliminating beavers. Beavers are not endangered animals, and who is advocating eliminating the entire species? Don't be overly dramatic.

Aw, please let me be dramatic? It's fun!

Yes, like it or not, humans do have power over life or death when it comes to animals, and even their own species. If you are speaking of some esoteric power or philosophy, sorry, but I deal in the here now, not the ethereal hereafter .

Not speaking of the hereafter, I'm speaking of the practice of humans to kill anything that is inconvenient to them. And no, that doesn't include a charging rhino or an attack of enraged chimpanzees - I'm talking more about things like trapping improperly, where the animal is left to suffer for days because of the wrong type of trap.

Actually it's even more than that - it's that cloying sense that humans are oh so much better than animals, so much more sociable and intelligent. The sense that we don't share the world with them as much as tolerate them. But then, I suppose that's getting into that forbidden philosophical area ...

Thankfully, most of us understand the powerful role that animals play on earth and humans have taken measures to preserve endangered species, from the smallest bug to the largest mammal.

In some cases, yes. In many other cases, no.

I can't speak for Rkunsaw, but I take exception to the statements regarding elimination of a species if it is directed toward me because of what I believe. I have the right, and will exercise that right in protecting my home, habitat if you will, from any destructive force of nature, and that includes beast or human. On the other side of the coin, I will not harm an animal that merely causes me "inconvenience" , such as the 13 raccoons that I spent considerable time and effort relocating this spring.

It isn't a "right" - it's an instinctive action.

And I appreciate and respect your actions with the coons. So, why couldn't the same thing be done with beavers?

So far in another thread, you have accused me of selling my soul to live rurally, because I shop at Walmart, and now from what I can ascertain, because I would kill a beaver to protect my property, I guess I'm to be included with whomever or whatever group you think is on a mission of total annihilation of the beaver population.

Man, I'm beginning to suck! I'll have to join the PC crowd and cry assault on my eroded self esteem.

Of course, you are entitled to your opinions and arguments, that you express so much more eloquently by written word than I, but I say don't judge until you have lived amongst them.

I don't believe I have accused you of anything, but if I have you have my profoundest apologies.

... unless of course you ARE guilty of it. :playful:

And yes, I'm a city boy, so my opinions are going to be different than yours - I realize that. I've been guilty in the past of killing what I saw as varmints - rats, roaches, unicorns - but I never thought of their possible extinction at the time. Since beavers once WERE close to extinction I tend to have a bit more of a knee-jerk reaction to anything concerning their elimination.

I'm sure I've done many things that YOU would object to in my years in the city. Feel free to use whatever names you like on me for indulging in wholesale violence, criminal activity and moral and ethical transgressions. Whatever you call me, know that it won't change my behavior because, like you, it's the environment that I'm living in.

And finally, much of what I present as my views on topics such as this are primarily philosophical. I'm basically a monk trapped in his little cell, imagining what the world outside looks like. Of course many of my ideas are going to seem like they're impractical, but this is how I learn - by throwing an argument into open forum and seeing if any opposing views make sense.
 
So you're saying if a mouse came into your house ( the environment you created) you wouldn't set a trap. Or have you trapped a mouse before? I;ll bet you have. Are you trying to eliminate mice from the world? How cruel.:pfff:

See my mea culpa in the previous post. :D

PS: I've never killed a mouse. I've trapped a few in a cardboard box and took them to the woods. Unlike the rats. Maybe because the mice are "cute" and the rats are "repulsive" ... stupid reason, I know.
 
Wow this thread has gotten a lot more exciting than I could have ever imagined:D

Right? ;)

Who would have ever thought that the mere mention of "beaver" would create such excitement?

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1. WHOA! That means the Big Gun Beavers became extinct before man hit the icy waters with their traps and it's good thing!

What weighs 300 pounds, walks down a dark alley and goes "Here, kitty, kitty, kitty!" ?

2. Simply put, they wouldn't be on rkunsaw's pond if he hadn't built a pond -- yet a tug-O-war is being played over who was there first and who owns the rights to rkunsaw's pond?

I may be mistaken but I thought he was referring to a lake that others had built ...

Regardless, it's terraforming - the act of playing God by placing water where there was once land and vice-versa. Mighty bold act for humans, no?

3. Here's where the humans come in -- please note it was a few years before our generation(s) started to wreak havoc on the Beaver population.

No argument there.

4. Please note the part I put in bold italics --- sounds like city slicker-dom to me----------meaning don't blame it all on the country folk:)

I'm not blaming country folk. It's just a fact that most of the animals are going to be found out in the country.

5. Good Beaver or Bad Beaver in this paragraph? A little bit of both:eek:nthego:

All creatures great and small contain the Yin/Yang nature - that's a given, and it's also why, before a species is hunted to extinction, you have to consider the pluses as well as the minuses of their existence. We've killed off the bugs that attack crops - that's wonderful. But we never thought that the bees would be killed off in the process.

Oops, again.

6. Pro: Beavers are now managed by the state(s) and trapping is regulated. Con: In some areas beavers have become an agricultural pest.


"They may be harvested OR TRANSPLANTED..." - that's my point. I know there's a lot more work involved in transplanting them but I see it as being the more humane way of dealing with them. It isn't as if they're attacking us like enraged beasts - they're just living their lives. Why penalize them for doing that?

It is against the law to kill a Copperhead, in Tennessee. I am sorry, if I see one on the garage apron with his head poised for a strike, he's dead if I get the chance. I know full well if there's one there's probably a den of them close by. I don't want them to become extinct but the neighbor has a big fat pond 1,200 feet away and they either stay in their own territory or take a chance on getting their head blown off if they show up in mine;)

Having had my encounters with copperheads I know that I go out of my way to avoid them, just as they do with me. If it comes down to a confrontation then yes, it's kill or be killed.

Very different than a beaver.

And so it goes with any type of wildlife humans share their corner of the world with. It is our responsibility to not be the Nimrods of the 21st Century but we also have to manage the wild life ethically.

Well said.
 
I know some of you don't like to hear about trapping beavers so I won't mention the two I caught this week.

Larry, When you're through trapping yours how about coming this way...I found another tree down yesterday. What kind of trap do you use and where can I get one?
 


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