Berkeley Bans Police-Conducted Traffic Stops, Will Send in Unarmed Civilians

Robert59

Robert59

Well-known Member
Location
Now I live in Tennesee. Did live in Michigan.
I'll find it interesting to see how this spins out. Berkeley isn't talking about no longer enforcing traffic laws, merely changing who's doing the enforcement. Seems to me that they'll be adding a layer to the police department.

All kinds of things sound odd when first presented. This may turn out just fine. As my friend @Ronni says, "If it's stupid, but it works, it ain't stupid!"
 
That Townhall newsletter is apparently NRA-sponsored, and is way over on the far-right side of things. (A "mantra" within the Democratic party? Please.)
Here's a somewhat more balanced article about this.

https://www.kron4.com/news/bay-area...ove-plan-to-remove-police-from-traffic-stops/

One thing I didn't see is a description of how the driver being pulled over is supposed to know that this is a legitimate city employee with the power to issue tickets, etc. What if they just decide to step on the gas and outrun the vehicle that is trying to stop them, assuming it is not a police car? Or even worse, what if they are armed themselves, and are a quick-on-the-trigger nut case? Wouldn't this be putting the unarmed civilian employee at serious risk?
 

Sunny said:
That Townhall newsletter is apparently NRA-sponsored, and is way over on the far-right side of things. (A "mantra" within the Democratic party? Please.)
Here's a somewhat more balanced article about this.

https://www.kron4.com/news/bay-area...ove-plan-to-remove-police-from-traffic-stops/

One thing I didn't see is a description of how the driver being pulled over is supposed to know that this is a legitimate city employee with the power to issue tickets, etc. What if they just decide to step on the gas and outrun the vehicle that is trying to stop them, assuming it is not a police car? Or even worse, what if they are armed themselves, and are a quick-on-the-trigger nut case? Wouldn't this be putting the unarmed civilian employee at serious risk?
Click to expand...
If people making traffic stops aren't police officers, the quick-on-the-trigger nut cases might not respond with so much fear.

For now I will presume that Berkeley has thought some of these scenarios through and will adjust their policy as it gets field tested.
 
New York used to have "Brownies", who were uniformed but unarmed employees who wrote parking tickets and directed traffic. I don't know if they made traffic stops. I don't know if they are still around but I haven't noticed them on recent trips.

It would make sense not to have expensive, presumably well-trained police spending time on routine traffic and (especially) parking enforcement.

However, Berkeley has horribly high violent and property crime rates, so I hope the mayor is serious about having the police spend their time on more high-impact matters. I have my doubts but maybe he is on to something.

https://www.areavibes.com/berkeley-ca/crime/
 
Will the new wannabe’s have access to run a check on the car before approaching the driver? I have encountered several ‘wanted’ felons while doing routine traffic stops. What will they do if they come in contact with a wanted felon while making a stop?

Actually, I hope this works out. If it does, the police will have more time to attend to the real problems. Most police dislike doing traffic stops. Not because they are dangerous, but because they are boring. You just sit there waiting for the radar alarm or spotting a stolen tag or an out of date inspection sticker. Just boring.
 
I will tell you what would worry me if I lived in one of the cities working to getting rid of cops or even defunding the police, is if this doesn’t work out as the city council expects, they may not get enough applicants to reform a new police department. I wouldn’t feel safe living in a city without police. It’s a risk, a huge risk.
 
Spoke with one of my still active Trooper friends earlier this morning. He told me that the Pennsylvania State Police are recruiting a new class of Troopers. Starting pay is $63,000.00. Top pay for a Trooper is at $111,000.00. If you are a veteran Trooper with at least 10+ years, you can earn Veteran points and the pay can go up from there. So, it is possible to make above the $111,000.00 threshold.
 
No biggie. Capture the license plate # on cameras which are standard equipment anyway. No different than intersections where "red eye" cameras are installed to catch violators.

Second, it's been shown that police chases create a high risk of dangerous accidents involving collateral damage/injury. This is especially true in a crowded, mostly residential, narrow-streets urban town like Berkeley, where teens and children are often outside (and certainly these days, with schools closed).

Berkeley traffic is notoriously bad. Berkeley's street grid is deliberately infuriating; there are very few wide streets that go all the way through the city. It takes us twice as long to drive through Berkeley streets as it does through Oakland streets, yet Oakland is twice the size of Berkeley. 'Speeding' tickets in Berkeley are likely for going 40mph in a 25mph zone.

Third, saying that "Berkeley has horribly high violent and property crime rates" is not justified by context, IMHO. We live in Oakland, my relatives live in Berkeley/El Cerrito; so we are in or through Berkeley anywhere from 1-3x every week.

The definition of "violent crimes" includes all instances of murder, rape, burglary and assault, even if no actual violence occurred. It is a category which presumes "threat of violence", and should not be taken as a statement of fact.

Berkeley's ratio is high mostly due to burglaries, which is understandable. Berkeley's residential population - which is quite separate from the University of CA Berkeley itself - leans heavily towards white, well-educated, and much higher income/property value than any other city within Alameda County.

In fact, Berkeley is one of the "whitest" cities in the entire San Francisco Bay Area, which I've always found amusing. So yes, if you're going to do the usual "smash and grab" amateur druggie thieving, which is probably 95% of all urban burglaries, then Berkeley is a shiny little target just sitting there.

For all its "crime", Berkeley had one murder in all of 2019. ONE.

I'm not a big fan of Berkeley under most circumstances, but to infer it's a hot bed of crime needing a large police force is simply not correct. Our many friends - which includes four Berkeley homeowners in different neighborhoods - would find that laughable.

Also, please remember that the University of CA has its own police force. They can and do call upon the BPD when needed, but the city itself does not have primary responsibility for UC enforcement, although UC's statistics are included in the city of Berkeley's stats.
 
911 said:
Spoke with one of my still active Trooper friends earlier this morning. He told me that the Pennsylvania State Police are recruiting a new class of Troopers. Starting pay is $63,000.00. Top pay for a Trooper is at $111,000.00. If you are a veteran Trooper with at least 10+ years, you can earn Veteran points and the pay can go up from there. So, it is possible to make above the $111,000.00 threshold.
Click to expand...

I don't know if it's changed in recent years, but quite a few years ago the Federal government eliminated upper-age limits for many law enforcement positions. I was pleasantly surprised to see a fellow in a city I previously lived in had just started training at the city's police academy at 52 years of age.

If all the 'cop-haters' think they can do a better job, maybe they should replace their mouths with action and join up.
 
Lethe200 said:
No biggie. Capture the license plate # on cameras which are standard equipment anyway. No different than intersections where "red eye" cameras are installed to catch violators.

Second, it's been shown that police chases create a high risk of dangerous accidents involving collateral damage/injury. This is especially true in a crowded, mostly residential, narrow-streets urban town like Berkeley, where teens and children are often outside (and certainly these days, with schools closed).

Berkeley traffic is notoriously bad. Berkeley's street grid is deliberately infuriating; there are very few wide streets that go all the way through the city. It takes us twice as long to drive through Berkeley streets as it does through Oakland streets, yet Oakland is twice the size of Berkeley. 'Speeding' tickets in Berkeley are likely for going 40mph in a 25mph zone.

Third, saying that "Berkeley has horribly high violent and property crime rates" is not justified by context, IMHO. We live in Oakland, my relatives live in Berkeley/El Cerrito; so we are in or through Berkeley anywhere from 1-3x every week.

The definition of "violent crimes" includes all instances of murder, rape, burglary and assault, even if no actual violence occurred. It is a category which presumes "threat of violence", and should not be taken as a statement of fact.

Berkeley's ratio is high mostly due to burglaries, which is understandable. Berkeley's residential population - which is quite separate from the University of CA Berkeley itself - leans heavily towards white, well-educated, and much higher income/property value than any other city within Alameda County.

In fact, Berkeley is one of the "whitest" cities in the entire San Francisco Bay Area, which I've always found amusing. So yes, if you're going to do the usual "smash and grab" amateur druggie thieving, which is probably 95% of all urban burglaries, then Berkeley is a shiny little target just sitting there.

For all its "crime", Berkeley had one murder in all of 2019. ONE.

I'm not a big fan of Berkeley under most circumstances, but to infer it's a hot bed of crime needing a large police force is simply not correct. Our many friends - which includes four Berkeley homeowners in different neighborhoods - would find that laughable.

Also, please remember that the University of CA has its own police force. They can and do call upon the BPD when needed, but the city itself does not have primary responsibility for UC enforcement, although UC's statistics are included in the city of Berkeley's stats.
Click to expand...
A friend who lived in/near your location said traffic chases through residential areas are illegal.
I don't know if they are here or not. But the camera idea wouldn't work- traffic cameras have been vanishing as individuals have been griping the cameras 'violate their rights.' :cautious:
 
JaniceM said:
A friend who lived in/near your location said traffic chases through residential areas are illegal. I don't know if they are here or not. But the camera idea wouldn't work- traffic cameras have been vanishing as individuals have been griping the cameras 'violate their rights.' :cautious:
Click to expand...

Traffic cameras are a big thing here, and cities are installing them with no negative feedback. They're also going up on freeways due to freeway shootings, but that's a state thing, not individual cities.

It's a relatively simple matter to expand the meter maid program - they already have them, all our cities do - and equip the carts with cameras. No need to stop and write a ticket, in fact. It's like the bridges' tollbooths: they just mail you the ticket.

There's no need for traffic chases in Berkeley, guns or no guns. For one thing, as I pointed out, traffic never goes that fast unless it's 3 a.m. There's just not that many wide big streets that go for long distances before dead-ending or having to make a 90-degree turn.

In Berkeley/Oakland the only wide streets that are multi-city are San Pablo Avenue, Sacramento St., and Telegraph Ave. And of those three, only San Pablo Ave. goes on for more than 3 miles before you're forced to jog around an angled intersection. Try to take one of those at 90 mph and you'll simply end up smashing into a tree or the side of a building.

In crowded urban areas, most traffic tickets are for: illegal parking, illegal turns, expired registrations.

"Defunding the police" doesn't mean the police can't stop a car they suspect of a crime. It just means that traffic violations are no longer one of their primary duties.

And I do think it's about time we paid more attention to, and spent more on, mental health issues. Because those incidents are very often not a police issue, and all too often armed confrontation merely escalates the situation.

Some of them are, yes. But not all of them. Otherwise 911 operators wouldn't be telling stories about how they've had to convince callers that a lost pizza is not cause for an emergency call, LOL.

While the United States represents about 4.4% of the world's population, it houses around 22% of the world's prisoners.
U.S. incarceration rate: Wikipedia

Either you believe Americans are natural criminals, or that our current thinking on law enforcement needs some changes.

We ask way too much of our police forces these days, and I dislike seeing them put in situations where "all they have is a hammer, so everything looks like a nail."

Just MHO, as a confirmed liberal.
 
911 said:
Spoke with one of my still active Trooper friends earlier this morning. He told me that the Pennsylvania State Police are recruiting a new class of Troopers. Starting pay is $63,000.00. Top pay for a Trooper is at $111,000.00. If you are a veteran Trooper with at least 10+ years, you can earn Veteran points and the pay can go up from there. So, it is possible to make above the $111,000.00 threshold.
Click to expand...
This might not be a raise in take home pay because it will put you in a higher tax bracket
 
JaniceM said:
A friend who lived in/near your location said traffic chases through residential areas are illegal.
I don't know if they are here or not. But the camera idea wouldn't work- traffic cameras have been vanishing as individuals have been griping the cameras 'violate their rights.' :cautious:
Click to expand...
Chases are legal here in residential areas and tickets cannot be given via traffic cameras.
 
Lethe200 said:
Traffic cameras are a big thing here, and cities are installing them with no negative feedback. They're also going up on freeways due to freeway shootings, but that's a state thing, not individual cities.

It's a relatively simple matter to expand the meter maid program - they already have them, all our cities do - and equip the carts with cameras. No need to stop and write a ticket, in fact. It's like the bridges' tollbooths: they just mail you the ticket.

There's no need for traffic chases in Berkeley, guns or no guns. For one thing, as I pointed out, traffic never goes that fast unless it's 3 a.m. There's just not that many wide big streets that go for long distances before dead-ending or having to make a 90-degree turn.

In Berkeley/Oakland the only wide streets that are multi-city are San Pablo Avenue, Sacramento St., and Telegraph Ave. And of those three, only San Pablo Ave. goes on for more than 3 miles before you're forced to jog around an angled intersection. Try to take one of those at 90 mph and you'll simply end up smashing into a tree or the side of a building.

In crowded urban areas, most traffic tickets are for: illegal parking, illegal turns, expired registrations.

"Defunding the police" doesn't mean the police can't stop a car they suspect of a crime. It just means that traffic violations are no longer one of their primary duties.

And I do think it's about time we paid more attention to, and spent more on, mental health issues. Because those incidents are very often not a police issue, and all too often armed confrontation merely escalates the situation.

Some of them are, yes. But not all of them. Otherwise 911 operators wouldn't be telling stories about how they've had to convince callers that a lost pizza is not cause for an emergency call, LOL.

While the United States represents about 4.4% of the world's population, it houses around 22% of the world's prisoners.
U.S. incarceration rate: Wikipedia

Either you believe Americans are natural criminals, or that our current thinking on law enforcement needs some changes.

We ask way too much of our police forces these days, and I dislike seeing them put in situations where "all they have is a hammer, so everything looks like a nail."

Just MHO, as a confirmed liberal.
Click to expand...
We have a lot of prisoners, IMO, because of stupid and sometime present/past marijuana laws.
 
All I can say is, I'm not going to volunteer to be one of those unarmed civilians!

Did anyone ever watch that reality show where they ride along with real cops? I could never believe some of the bizarre encounters that resulted from traffic stops.
 
Autumn said:
All I can say is, I'm not going to volunteer to be one of those unarmed civilians!

Did anyone ever watch that reality show where they ride along with real cops? I could never believe some of the bizarre encounters that resulted from traffic stops.
Click to expand...
Why not give the mayors a pen and pad of paper to bring back law & order?
 

You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top