Canadians Toppling Statues of Queen Victoria & Queen Elizabeth ll

As an American, I don't have a dog in this fight. But, I have noticed that my Northern friends have blamed everybody from the media to errant Canadians. To me, the unrest is frustration with the supposed betrayal of authority-the Catholic Church, and the government for what may be a scandal of epic child abuse. Granted, the jury is out as to the extent of abuse there was, if any. But the track record of those institutions is not great.
 

Got no dog in this fight, I am not Canadian and have no Canadian family or relatives I know of and know little of Canadian history. However I do find it an interesting discussion and can see parallels to some of the things happening now in the US.

We are in the process of taking down monuments and things related to the Confederacy and our Civil War. I can understand some of this, many see these monuments as honoring the institution of slavery and much that came with it. I however do not believe tearing many of these down is right. These monuments are an important part of our history, one we should not forget. An example was the Battelle of Liberty Place monument in New Orleans, one erected in 1891. The inscription read in part "the national election of November 1876 recognized white supremacy in the South and gave us our state", we called it the monument to white supremacy. I do not agree with the sentiments expressed on the monument, but I believe it served a useful purpose. When I last lived in Louisiana, in the 70s it was a place black people could go and show defiance. I have a picture I took on Mardi Gras in 1978 of some Black Panthers standing in front of it giving their Black Power salute. When I got there the Panthers were rather friendly and wanted their pictures taken. So the monument was serving two important purposes, reminding us of a darker time in our past, and giving platform to those descended from the victims of that past. It is gone today, unfortunate I believe. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Liberty_Place_Monument

We are a country descended of slave holders and a slave based economy (in part anyway). Some of my ancestors were slave holders, as a very young child my mother knew some of our former family slaves. I believe we and our descendants need to remember that and derive whatever lessons learned from it we can. Tearing things down is not the right way to do that. The monuments are part of that history.

Anyway I digress, I know this is a Canadian thread and y'all have a very different history from ours, so I am not sure how much of what I say applies. The Church burning thing however I have no tolerance for, can't understand that at all. I am not a Catholic either, but there is no way I could understand or in anyway support persecution of Catholics...
 
Keesha said:
I do understand the outrage of church and our government but knocking down statues won’t change a thing. Most of us know this. A few don’t.

The church had far too much power which they shouldn’t have had to begin with. Religion and politics should have never been mixed. Our government shouldn’t have gotten involved in traditional cultures the way they did of our indigenous people and religion should never have even been considered.


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….and keep them separate.
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Is that the home of some Evangilist preacher ? Which one ?
 

IMO, this kind of trouble results from an amalgam of catalysts - mass media (whose revenues are enhanced by social problems), bad parenting, crap school systems, and too many laws with too little enforcement. The end result is too many lazy, spoiled young people without strong values who have little or no consequences to their actions.
 
fuzzybuddy said:
the track record of those institutions is not great.
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Is the track record of any old institution "great" when past actions are compared to modern day sensibility? I think probably not, and the older the worse it gets. Just a reflection of the evolution of our thinking. Even the Boy Scouts have had their problems...

What the institution has and is doing to end and correct these wrongs is what really matters. I am not Catholic and don't really know a lot about it, but it does appear to me that they are at least trying to admit and correct things. Maybe not perfectly or completely, but progress is good.
 
Alligatorob said:
Got no dog in this fight, I am not Canadian and have no Canadian family or relatives I know of and know little of Canadian history. However I do find it an interesting discussion and can see parallels to some of the things happening now in the US.

We are in the process of taking down monuments and things related to the Confederacy and our Civil War. I can understand some of this, many see these monuments as honoring the institution of slavery and much that came with it. I however do not believe tearing many of these down is right. These monuments are an important part of our history, one we should not forget. An example was the Battelle of Liberty Place monument in New Orleans, one erected in 1891. The inscription read in part "the national election of November 1876 recognized white supremacy in the South and gave us our state", we called it the monument to white supremacy. I do not agree with the sentiments expressed on the monument, but I believe it served a useful purpose. When I last lived in Louisiana, in the 70s it was a place black people could go and show defiance. I have a picture I took on Mardi Gras in 1978 of some Black Panthers standing in front of it giving their Black Power salute. When I got there the Panthers were rather friendly and wanted their pictures taken. So the monument was serving two important purposes, reminding us of a darker time in our past, and giving platform to those descended from the victims of that past. It is gone today, unfortunate I believe. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Liberty_Place_Monument

We are a country descended of slave holders and a slave based economy (in part anyway). Some of my ancestors were slave holders, as a very young child my mother knew some of our former family slaves. I believe we and our descendants need to remember that and derive whatever lessons learned from it we can. Tearing things down is not the right way to do that. The monuments are part of that history.

Anyway I digress, I know this is a Canadian thread and y'all have a very different history from ours, so I am not sure how much of what I say applies. The Church burning thing however I have no tolerance for, can't understand that at all. I am not a Catholic either, but there is no way I could understand or in anyway support persecution of Catholics...
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...descended of Caucasian Slave Holders, reminding us of a darker time of America's past slavery now used as an excuse for many Black people to be irascible towards todays' Caucasians. "Those Holders played a very important part in establishing America-------however, the physical labor that came with it was accomplished much by the labor of slaves. Black people treated as nonentities for many years. It's no wonder that (in America) they, who are using the past mistreatment of their ancestors as an excuse to bring down statues of those Holders, don't realize that by destroying the Holders' statutes they are also erasing the history of the slave holders' slaves.
 
Monticello was Thomas Jefferson's plantation. On https://www.monticello.org/, one thing said on the home page is:

"Thomas Jefferson enslaved over six hundred people throughout his life. Learn about the men, women, and children who built Jefferson's home, planted his crops, tended his gardens, and who helped run his household and raise his children."​

So it's not kept a secret.
 
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Mike said:
What to me is most upsetting is that it is happening
in Canada, a country that I thought was such a nice
place, full of nice people!

What happened?

Mike.
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That Mike, is the "64,000 dollar" question. There are many reasons why this country has changed:
1. Feel good education system that emphasizes "me, me, me" over social responsibility.
2. Social media spreading wild stories
3. Police that are afraid of doing anything so they wouldn't be sued.
4. A social system where parents are afraid of their children who might report them for being bad parents.
5. Hollywood movies that emphasizes violence.
6. Lack of knowledge and understanding of our history which causes young people to make mistakes in their actions.
7. Generally, we live in a society that emphasizes being either "dumb or dumber" is better than being smart or smarter.
 
Devi said:
So it's not kept a secret.
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No, and it should not be. People need to understand the whole story, along with it's complexities. Monticello is an example of how to do it right, keep the monuments and use them to tell the story.

Jefferson Davis' (President of the US Southern Confederacy) Beauvoir is, or was in sharp contrast. When I visited, about 20 years ago, no mention of slavery at all, just the remembered glories of the old Confederacy. Hopefully that has changed, don't know. But even if it has not I don't think destruction of Beauvoir would be the right thing to do... https://www.visitbeauvoir.org/
 
Mike said:
Canada, a country that I thought was such a nice
place, full of nice people!
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Have to agree with Mike, this thread surprises me. As a relatively ignorant American I have always thought of Canada as a great place, and Canadians as very good folks. The only thing I see wrong is the long cold winter! I suspect Canada and Canadians still are pretty nice, but maybe a bit self critical. Not a bad thing.
 
Alligatorob said:
Got no dog in this fight, I am not Canadian and have no Canadian family or relatives I know of and know little of Canadian history. However I do find it an interesting discussion and can see parallels to some of the things happening now in the US.

We are in the process of taking down monuments and things related to the Confederacy and our Civil War. I can understand some of this, many see these monuments as honoring the institution of slavery and much that came with it. I however do not believe tearing many of these down is right. These monuments are an important part of our history, one we should not forget. An example was the Battelle of Liberty Place monument in New Orleans, one erected in 1891. The inscription read in part "the national election of November 1876 recognized white supremacy in the South and gave us our state", we called it the monument to white supremacy. I do not agree with the sentiments expressed on the monument, but I believe it served a useful purpose. When I last lived in Louisiana, in the 70s it was a place black people could go and show defiance. I have a picture I took on Mardi Gras in 1978 of some Black Panthers standing in front of it giving their Black Power salute. When I got there the Panthers were rather friendly and wanted their pictures taken. So the monument was serving two important purposes, reminding us of a darker time in our past, and giving platform to those descended from the victims of that past. It is gone today, unfortunate I believe. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Liberty_Place_Monument

We are a country descended of slave holders and a slave based economy (in part anyway). Some of my ancestors were slave holders, as a very young child my mother knew some of our former family slaves. I believe we and our descendants need to remember that and derive whatever lessons learned from it we can. Tearing things down is not the right way to do that. The monuments are part of that history.

Anyway I digress, I know this is a Canadian thread and y'all have a very different history from ours, so I am not sure how much of what I say applies. The Church burning thing however I have no tolerance for, can't understand that at all. I am not a Catholic either, but there is no way I could understand or in anyway support persecution of Catholics...
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There is a difference between remembering history and honoring it. I wold have found that New Orleans statue highly offensive and am glad to know it was removed.

“Do the best you can until you know better. Then when you know better, do better.” ― Maya Angelou​

One thing we can do better is realize who/what is praise-worthy and deserving of being honored with a presence in the public square and who/what is not.

Uncovering these graves has been a very painful period for all Canadians, and particularly so for its indigenous people. They have a right to be angry.
 
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Alligatorob said:
Have to agree with Mike, this thread surprises me. As a relatively ignorant American I have always thought of Canada as a great place, and Canadians as very good folks. The only thing I see wrong is the long cold winter! I suspect Canada and Canadians still are pretty nice, but maybe a bit self critical. Not a bad thing.
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It’s disgusting and shameful that the gravesites were found of the indigenous children. Most of us had no idea that this type of treatment was happening throughout North America. It was a decision made between OUR governments and OUR churches.
If this was happening throughout Canada then it could easily have happened in the United States also. Once you start reading up about this, it’s shocking what other news can be found.

https://www.vox.com/2019/10/14/20913408/us-stole-thousands-of-native-american-children
 
There is much about the removal of indigenous children, in Google,
to boarding schools, between 1880 & 1940, not only in Canada, but
also in the USA and Australia, there are too many places with reports
to put links here, but if you ask google, then you will get thousands.

Mike.
 
StarSong said:
There is a difference between remembering history and honoring it. I wold have found that New Orleans statue highly offensive and am glad to know it was removed.

“Do the best you can until you know better. Then when you know better, do better.” ― Maya Angelou​

One thing we can do better is realize who/what is praise-worthy and worthy of being honored with a presence in the public square and who/what is not.

Uncovering these graves has been a very painful period for all Canadians, and particularly so for its indigenous people. They have a right to be angry.
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Instead of removing the statues, place a large shiny plaque in front of each with words that tell befuddled tales of battles with peaceful, welcoming indigenous peoples whose land he purloined.

Could we all have lived together peacefully with our different life styles?
 
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Sorry for your troubles Canadians, but it is so refreshing to see from this side of the border that we are not the only ones who can experience turmoil.
 
Elsie said:
...descended of Caucasian Slave Holders, reminding us of a darker time of America's past slavery now used as an excuse for many Black people to be irascible towards todays' Caucasians. "Those Holders played a very important part in establishing America-------however, the physical labor that came with it was accomplished much by the labor of slaves. Black people treated as nonentities for many years. It's no wonder that (in America) they, who are using the past mistreatment of their ancestors as an excuse to bring down statues of those Holders, don't realize that by destroying the Holders' statutes they are also erasing the history of the slave holders' slaves.
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Removal of statues is not erasing history. As an example, Germany has no statues of Hitler but I'm sure present day citizenry knows about the 12 years of the Third Reich from books, Internet and formal (classroom) education.
 
Mike said:
There is much about the removal of indigenous children, in Google,
to boarding schools, between 1880 & 1940, not only in Canada, but
also in the USA and Australia, there are too many places with reports
to put links here, but if you ask google, then you will get thousands.

Mike.
Click to expand...
My husband and I were just talking about this today. He said that this type of treatment happened throughout the world. We just didn’t talk about it since it was shoved under the carpet and there was no internet at the time so we couldn’t all compare notes.
Now that more people know and it’s in the spotlight, then hopefully some significant changes can be made.

It’s reassuring to know that Canada has made much progress over the last year. Hopefully things will improve.


https://www.culturalsurvival.org/news/canada-arrives-controversial-reparations-agreement
 
Keesha said:
easily have happened in the United States also
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As Rose says I believe it did, we did not treat Native Americans any better than you did. I live within a mile of the old Intermountain Indian School (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intermountain_Indian_School ). My family spent 2 years in Utah when I was in High School and we used to have sporting events with the Indian School, I wrestled there a couple of times.

That was the 60s and I do not believe the mistreatment was as bad then as earlier, but still the Indian kids were forced to leave home and live at the school for years. And I know it was not a great place and many of the Indian students were not very happy about it. We also had a kind of exchange program, Indian kids were placed in the homes of whites for "education".

I had 2 such Indian friends, one I kept touch with for several years after school. He had little good to say about that program or the Indian school.

When I said I see Canada as a nice place with nice people I meant it. I know y'all are humans, not perfect, but pretty good. And I think the unfortunate events took place a long time ago, not many living Canadians involved.
 


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