Child, 2, kills self with gun from mom's purse, police say

One thing you are ignoring Bob, is that if there weren't guns in so many homes, when those homes are burglarized, there wouldn't be so many guns stolen and thus getting onto the street to be smuggled into Canada. You're also ignoring the fact that our Justice system has referenced American studies that attest to the relative simplicity for American crooks and criminals (including juveniles who haven't learned to control their violent impulses) getting their hands on guns.

And while we've gotten away from the original post subject here a little, my point is and always will be that whatever 'you' do or don't do affects us (and many countries of the world) which in my books, gives us a bit of right to be concerned AND to express an opinion which you seem to either not realize or to ignore which seems to be (to me anyway), a rather arrogant attitude.

Because you mentioned a number (3%/10%) of guns being stolen and used in criminal acts, I went on a search for the number of guns in America, and according to this article http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...e-in-america-state-secrecy-means-no-one-knows no one really knows how many guns there are. It goes on to identify states where the levels of secrecy are such that even if research into gun statistics and outcomes were wanted and funded by some agency, it's legally impossible to access that information. Some transparency there! It also talks about the requirements to NOT hold onto the outcomes of back ground checks, three states having no permitting requirements, and one state having no requirement to even hold onto sales records which means if he chooses not to record it, there is no way to follow up to see if that dealers background checks are even done or who he's selling guns to.

One private survey done by a university in Chicago estimates that there are 79 million guns in the US while other estimates suggest upwards of 270 to 310 million guns which means even going with your lower number, that means 2,370,000 to 9,300,000 stolen guns may be floating around and some of which are crossing our border. It is not insignificant.

I have never said that America needs to ban guns. I admit to having mixed feelings on this issue and can see both sides (at least inasmuch as perhaps citizens need to have recourse if a government runs amok). But when I read articles like that last one that basically blasts 'your' record keeping efforts, the agenda of secrecy and in some cases the outright obfuscation of any effort to even make your own people safe through national rules and regulations, I am concerned. You want to bury your head in the sand on this, fine, but the criticisms and the concern will continue to come America's way on this issue.
 

Warrigal said:
The child in the OP wasn't killed by the gun of a criminal.
Does it hurt less if your child is killed by a criminal or by your own gun?
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The mother in this case was foolish and careless. How do all the careless mothers or fathers feel after they kill their babies by leaving them in a hot car to cook to death, in a bathtub to drown while they chat on the phone, to play near an open window in a 5 story apartment building, and the list goes on and on?

It just doesn't excite people and linger in the headlines like when there's a firearm involved, then it's exaggerated to the max and used as a fear tactic to promote the agendas driven by the anti-gun public and politicians.....shameful! These poor babies are dead for no good reason, regardless of cause.
 
Debby said:
One thing you are ignoring Bob, is that if there weren't guns in so many homes, when those homes are burglarized, there wouldn't be so many guns stolen and thus getting onto the street to be smuggled into Canada. You're also ignoring the fact that our Justice system has referenced American studies that attest to the relative simplicity for American crooks and criminals (including juveniles who haven't learned to control their violent impulses) getting their hands on guns.

And while we've gotten away from the original post subject here a little, my point is and always will be that whatever 'you' do or don't do affects us (and many countries of the world) which in my books, gives us a bit of right to be concerned AND to express an opinion which you seem to either not realize or to ignore which seems to be (to me anyway), a rather arrogant attitude.
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It is possible to have guns in Canada. Even I could have a gun in Canada. Once was offered a job in Canada and part of my equipment was a rifle. A rifle for survival from natural wild animal problems and for getting food if alone in the north wilds. This was part of the job.

There are also guns in Australia, and Mexico, and plenty in Europe, even in England, and the Arab countries have plenty. You speak as if not one in the world has weapons available to the people legally or with the bad folks having them no matter what.

With good folks having registered their guns you consider that a bad thing. Really a stretch to say the least. When we have areas of our larger cities being so dangerous that people are told to stay away for their safety. The ability to own a weapon is really important for neighbors to have. I have been in some of those areas and was advised to not stop for any reason. Was told to keep a large enough area between me and other cars to be able to maneuver and run if approached by not good looking folks at a stop light. Those kinds of things can and do happen even in Canadian cities.

I am not ignoring anything. And you are exaggerating everything. Keep assuming that Canada has no problems among your own people about the guns and where they came from. I believe that one of the folks caught coming from Canada had the idea of blowing up something. He likely had weapons as well as bombs.

Problem with the US records keeping and sharing? Just part of the US ways of having but not openly sharing personal information. We are much looser now that in past years. I think this all goes back to the earlier years where the persons information was considered to be quite private and not be shared, but between authorities with responsibility. Nosy neighbors really don't count. But the more the US is steered into the socialist type of government the more privacy we do lose.
 

SeaBreeze said:
The mother in this case was foolish and careless. How do all the careless mothers or fathers feel after they kill their babies by leaving them in a hot car to cook to death, in a bathtub to drown while they chat on the phone, to play near an open window in a 5 story apartment building, and the list goes on and on?

It just doesn't excite people and linger in the headlines like when there's a firearm involved, then it's exaggerated to the max and used as a fear tactic to promote the agendas driven by the anti-gun public and politicians.....shameful! These poor babies are dead for no good reason, regardless of cause.
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SeaBreeze, I can assure you that children and dogs left in locked cars over here make the headlines. There have been deaths and they are being taken very seriously. I can't remember the last time there was a headline about a child shooting anyone with a gun left lying about.
 
For those that think their countries are so much better than the US, take a few moments to read this article. For many, no guns means higher of other crimes against the people. And for some cultures no guns is not a problem nor is keeping their lands clean as it is just a part of their culture. To me, the US is becoming more trashy as the years roll on. I also believe that the murder rate has dropped in recent years. Look here for crime rates in US.

http://time.com/3577026/crime-rates-drop-1970s/

And here for the comparisons to other countries.

http://www.rebresearch.com/blog/crime-us-vs-uk/




 
Warrigal said:
SeaBreeze, I can assure you that children and dogs left in locked cars over here make the headlines. There have been deaths and they are being taken very seriously. I can't remember the last time there was a headline about a child shooting anyone with a gun left lying about.
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That's my point, does it matter if there are deaths or doesn't it? The children are gone no matter how the parents or guardians allowed it to happen. End result is loss of precious life.
 
Of course it matters. It matters to the parents no matter what the circumstances but it also matters to the general population in so much as measures might be taken to ensure that preventable deaths are actually prevented, by changes to public policies and laws if that is what it takes.

It is for these reasons that we have anti smoking campaigns and laws restricting the sale of tobacco products. It is why we have road and water safety education for kids at school. It is why we have highway patrols and fixed cameras on intersections and outside schools where the speed limit is lowered during certain hours. For this reason we have provisional driving licences for inexperienced drivers which impose zero blood alcohol and lower speed limits. It is all about preventing as many deaths and injuries as is possible.

Some would say we live in a nanny state but these and other measures are not about coddling people nor about restricting freedom. They are about ensuring that the actions of some don't impact catastrophically on others.
 
I'm sure some of you will tell me
if I'm wrong I remember reading

that in some parts of America that
the sweet kinder egg is banned
because the toy inside can become
lodged in a child's throat

yet it seems quite easy to buy
a gun or get someone of age
to get one for you America is
so used to having guns we
have a couple of reality shows
in England from the USA where a
couple of family run gunsmiths
make guns for you to order
a man designed a lightweight pistol
to be made for his mum of 90 because
her old gun was to heavy or get the grand child her first gun
it's madness it will never change over there sadly
there will be more deaths in years to come
 
Not going to get into the whole gun issue here, as deaths caused by inattentive parents can be by anything, a knife on a table, a saucepan of boiling soup, an open window, or the family dog.
BobF, you are certainly right about the President weighing in on the EU issue here being annoying.I think the government here perhaps asked him to do it though, as some of them are getting worried the vote will be for OUT.I will certainly be voting that way.
 
SeaBreeze said:
The mother in this case was foolish and careless. How do all the careless mothers or fathers feel after they kill their babies by leaving them in a hot car to cook to death, in a bathtub to drown while they chat on the phone, to play near an open window in a 5 story apartment building, and the list goes on and on?

It just doesn't excite people and linger in the headlines like when there's a firearm involved, then it's exaggerated to the max and used as a fear tactic to promote the agendas driven by the anti-gun public and politicians.....shameful! These poor babies are dead for no good reason, regardless of cause.
Click to expand...


I think people get just as excited when a child is dead by any means Seabreeze. I've read numerous headlines during the summer about children dying in hot cars, or if one falls out a high window or is abused to death. I think we naturally expect people and particularly mothers to be doubly alert to the possibility of our/their babies being hurt.
 
BobF said:
For those that think their countries are so much better than the US, take a few moments to read this article. For many, no guns means higher of other crimes against the people. And for some cultures no guns is not a problem nor is keeping their lands clean as it is just a part of their culture. To me, the US is becoming more trashy as the years roll on. I also believe that the murder rate has dropped in recent years. Look here for crime rates in US.

http://time.com/3577026/crime-rates-drop-1970s/

And here for the comparisons to other countries.

http://www.rebresearch.com/blog/crime-us-vs-uk/




Click to expand...


Bob, has ANYBODY said 'my country is better'? You keep saying that we're saying that but never once. And besides, your statement, "the US is becoming more trashy as the years roll on", seems a little weird in the light of the context that you set up in your opening sentence. Every country has problems that the people are trying to figure out how to deal with, but sticking your head in the sand and pretending it's all good 'ain't gonna fix nothing'.

Did you happen to read any of the links that I provided and if so, what do you have to say about the USA being the primary source of illegal weapons coming into Canada, or how about the American studies mentioned in our Justice Department site, that says that illegal weapons are ridiculously easy for your criminals and juveniles to get hold of? Those are definitely issues that might get fixed if ALL of your states were required to maintain sales records and maintain ALL records of background checks. And keep in mind, no one suggested that those records shouldn't be treated in the same way as personal medical records, i.e. PRIVATE.

And how many times have I said specifically that we have issues too and invited anyone here who wants to, to talk to us about them? Your remark "Keep assuming that Canada has no problems among your own people about the guns and where they came from" is so totally bogus that I'm amazed! You're letting your emotions get in the way of a sensible discussion.

America keeps records on absolutely everything (want to know where a cow going through a slaughter line was born? That has to be recorded) except apparently who owns guns. Trying to minimize the failings of your 'gun' record keeping for the sake of your argument only weakens that argument. Everyone does better when failings are acknowledged and then rectified. I wasn't the one who wrote the article on how there is a climate of secrecy about gun ownership in the US, that was written by an American who apparently thinks it's ridiculous too. If I recall, it was pointed out that you can find out who owns a car but you can't find out who owns guns which are designed for one purpose.

The Dutch study is interesting but I believe that since 1999, those numbers have dropped. Maybe look for articles that are a little more up to date.

Wikipedia has an interesting page on Canada’s crime rates https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Canada and it also includes a section at the end of the page that looks at and compares the rates of violent crime, assaults, property crime, etc between the USA and Canada. You might find that interesting and illuminating.


In the meantime, it is what it is eh Bob. Have a good day.


 
What a twisted and distorted post you just put up. I have responded to your posts in the past but just not what you wanted to hear so I get chastised again.

You are on your own now in my opinion. No country in this world needs to have self centered folks attacking them for any reason. Take on your own country as there is plenty that could be fixed there.

Speaking of emotions, you are a good example of emotions leading your thinking.
 
Debby said:
Bob, has ANYBODY said 'my country is better'? You keep saying that we're saying that but never once. And besides, your statement, "the US is becoming more trashy as the years roll on", seems a little weird in the light of the context that you set up in your opening sentence. Every country has problems that the people are trying to figure out how to deal with, but sticking your head in the sand and pretending it's all good 'ain't gonna fix nothing'.
Click to expand...

My comments about more trashy is just that. We once held on to the idea that trash was supposed to go into the trash containers at home or in the towns. Now we see more and more of folks buying things to eat and then just tossing the wrappers out on the sidewalks and from cars the entire remainder's of a fast food meal. They toss out the paper trays, napkins, wrappers, cups, and any contents left over into the streets. So I say the US is trashier than it once was.

I have not ignored your posts at all. You just refuse to read what I post and then let it go. We have our gun system set up in the Constitution, as I keep pointing out, and nothing will happen until the masses agree that the Constitution needs to be changed. I pointed out that both Democrats and Republicans are not interested in making such a change. Till then, it is you who is wasting your time trying to get the US to change. It may never happen.

In about 7 months we get rid of one of our most dangerous Presidents we have had to live with. In Obama's term he has added over $8 trillion more debt to our economy. Little free money remains for spending on the needs of our government after paying back on that debt. Whomever gets elected will have to do something to make that right or the US will go broke for real. Obama did take over during a recession but his actions did nothing to completely end the recession at all. Many folks were never able to regain their previous wage earning levels and many are still unemployed. Our entire economy needs reworked and so should our tax laws as they allow many folks to hide their incomes in other places where taxes are less.
 
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BobF said:
What a twisted and distorted post you just put up. I have responded to your posts in the past but just not what you wanted to hear so I get chastised again.

You are on your own now in my opinion. No country in this world needs to have self centered folks attacking them for any reason. Take on your own country as there is plenty that could be fixed there.

Speaking of emotions, you are a good example of emotions leading your thinking.
Click to expand...


You respond, yes you respond....but that's not to say that you always address the questions that I have thrown out there for consideration. Like what do you have to say about the RCMP statement that the majority of illegal guns in Canada come from your side of the border? What do you have to say about the American study referenced by our Justice Department that says that illegal weapons are simple to get for both criminals and juveniles in the USA? Why do you think it's acceptable that records are kept on everything (source of dead cows, who owns cars, obesity rates, homicide rates, how many acres are planted in soybeans........but not how many guns have been sold in the USA? Waiting, tic toc.......

And here's your opportunity to tell me what you think we should work on in Canada. I'll listen and I'll respond directly instead of deflecting. How about that?
 
Debby said:
You respond, yes you respond....but that's not to say that you always address the questions that I have thrown out there for consideration. Like what do you have to say about the RCMP statement that the majority of illegal guns in Canada come from your side of the border? What do you have to say about the American study referenced by our Justice Department that says that illegal weapons are simple to get for both criminals and juveniles in the USA? Waiting, tic toc.......

And here's your opportunity to tell me what you think we should work on in Canada. I'll listen and I'll respond directly instead of deflecting. How about that?
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I am not deflecting at all. I am ignoring some rather dumb comments. If Canada knows how all these guns come from and get to you then they should be directly telling the US so they can try to stop that. Illegal guns are the ones not registered and that could be many thousands more than any one knows of. They have never been registered or once were and have been stolen, lost, misplaced, and likely reported as such to the police. That does not mean anyone in the US knows how they got to where they are. How do the Canadian police find such data as what you published? To me it has been just more of your endless stream of nonsense. I have posted above that there is no hope for any changes to our Constitution so best find another subject to chase. Guns are not a major problem for the US as I have also posted the guns mean nothing to the economic mess our current government put us into.
 
Bob, Canada knows the guns are coming in and they're doing what they can to catch them and if you think they aren't talking to your border guards and Homeland Security and your Justice Department, etc., then you are naive. But the point is that those illegal guns are being obtained EASILY by the criminal element in YOUR country (some stolen in B & E's, some purchased by the criminal element from dealers who have limited requirements to adhere to) and then are finding their way across the border. MAYBE if those criminals couldn't get them so easily, there wouldn't be so many coming in. Your record keeping and registration requirements apparently stink and that comes from studies done in YOUR country by your agencies.

'Endless stream of nonsense'? An RCMP website and our Justice Department website? Seriously? At least the sites I'm linking for information are providing more up to date info (as opposed to some vague Dr.'s blog that shows 18 year old stats).

One more time Bob, I NEVER said change your Constitution and ban guns! NEVER. So why don't you just stop banging that false 'gong'. But it's obvious that your registration requirements have huge holes in them according to American studies and articles and you have a moral responsibility as a citizen of the world to take into consideration how YOUR actions affect others. Just as Canada does because we are all citizens of one very small globe that is getting smaller by the day and more crowded.


I'm done because there's no point.
 
Warrigal said:
.

It is for these reasons that we have anti smoking campaigns and laws restricting the sale of tobacco products. It is why we have road and water safety education for kids at school. It is why we have highway patrols and fixed cameras on intersections and outside schools where the speed limit is lowered during certain hours. For this reason we have provisional driving licences for inexperienced drivers which impose zero blood alcohol and lower speed limits. It is all about preventing as many deaths and injuries as is possible.

Some would say we live in a nanny state but these and other measures are not about coddling people nor about restricting freedom. They are about ensuring that the actions of some don't impact catastrophically on others.
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There are certain laws and restrictions necessary in a society, but excessive and endless regulations regarding every aspect of free choice and daily life is proof of a nanny state. How about people being responsible for their own actions?

If I want to smoke or quit smoking, I decide those personal things on my own, I don't need an anti-smoking campaign to guide me like a mindless fool. This reminds me of the NY politicians who wanted to make a law against selling soft drinks of a particular size.....ridiculous, IMO. Agree to disagree here Warri, enough with the ongoing rules and regulations already, at least here in the USA, I really don't care about the lack of freedom that citizens are content with in Australia, that's their business.

oakapple said:
Not going to get into the whole gun issue here, as deaths caused by inattentive parents can be by anything, a knife on a table, a saucepan of boiling soup, an open window, or the family dog.
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Exactly Oakapple!
 
We had an anti-smoking workshop at one place I was working and it was very informative and I think these presentations which are often held in schools should be continue and are usually targeting young people. IMO most people are in fact very big 'mindless fools' when it comes to what they do and what they buy. If it is sanctioned by the government/or even not, they will do/buy it. What makes anyone think that the average person has the awareness and consciousness to actually think about what they are doing and what is going on? Most people are so burned out from work and raising families that at the end of the day all they can do is eat their dinner, drink some beer and lie back and watch TV before passing out for the night.

I think we have to remember that things like cigarettes and big soft drink bottles and all the other things that can harm us (and I'm going to include the gun/weapons industry in this category) are out there because the industry wants them to be and is only interested in making money, not the well-being of the people. So I think its not so much about excessive regulation of the people, but they do have to be educated/informed, but more about stronger regulation of the industries.
 
I remember a program that was run in a girls junior high school some 30 years ago where the school counsellor ran a quit smoking program for the students. It was voluntary and entirely confidential, a bit like AA. The kids had begun to smoke and wanted to stop but needed help and support. This is just one element of a public health approach. Regulation of advertising and restrictions on smoking in public places since then have really made a difference. Smoking rates of young people are at historic lows. None of my six grandchildren has taken up tobacco and I am very grateful for this outcome.
 
So very true Warri, I am so happy that smoking is finally gone from the workplace, restaurants and public places with government regulation finally to the rescue.

Perhaps safety presentations and workshops to new gun owners might be something to think about.
 
Cookie said:
So very true Warri, I am so happy that smoking is finally gone from the workplace, restaurants and public places with government regulation finally to the rescue.

Perhaps safety presentations and workshops to new gun owners might be something to think about.
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That can and does happen in many towns around the country. Not sure about the national registration rules as they may require such basic education, but maybe not.

In Colorado my son was told to join a gun safety class when he wanted to buy a gun. When I was a kid there were not such types of concerns to be worried about. Guns were way more obvious back then and not many folks was concerned.

Hunting back then was close to many folks and hunting for food was pretty common. Pheasants, rabbits, turkeys, ducks, deer, and other table grade items were common. Not sure if many bother with hunted foods any more. So much now is available right nearby in the grocery sections of our markets.
 
Another 2 year old shoots his mother in the back from the back seat of a car. It belonged to her boyfriend, a security guard. He left it in the car.
How's that for security, leaving a loaded gun without a safety catch on in a car that his girlfriend, a mother of three, will be driving?
Didn't he pay attention in gun safety classes?
This didn't have to happen.

http://www.morganton.com/news/us/ap...cle_b99db3f5-e4df-5b44-895f-df2e511537d9.html
 
Warrigal said:
Another 2 year old shoots his mother in the back from the back seat of a car. It belonged to her boyfriend, a security guard. He left it in the car.
How's that for security, leaving a loaded gun without a safety catch on in a car that his girlfriend, a mother of three, will be driving?
Didn't he pay attention in gun safety classes?
This didn't have to happen.

http://www.morganton.com/news/us/ap...cle_b99db3f5-e4df-5b44-895f-df2e511537d9.html
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Certainly this did not have to happen. Neither did the kids walking into traffic have to happen. Plenty are told at home, in schools, churches, where ever, that being stupid will cause problems. But it happens anyway. All this constant complaining will not end the way things are happening.

I have read some articles about the Australian gun taking rules and how many just did not follow the rules and have kept their weapons hidden at home. What is the Australian government doing to eliminate those obvious criminal types that ignored the government rules?
 
If this was a fire caused by careless smoking or children killed by drunken driving people would be all over it, but because its about the sacred gun laws, defenses are way up. Objective observers just watch and snicker.
 

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